How can anyone say Big Dog is good?

[Playmaker0017]

How can ANYONE claim that this guy, Glenn Robinson, is a legitimate NBA starter? Much less an All-Star?

He is the worst player I have ever seen in my life. I would trust Shaq dribbling the ball from the top of the key rather than Dog. I would trust Shawn Bradley running point for a game, rather than Big Dog handling the ball even once.

This guy kills the Hawks. How many dumb shots did he hoist tonight? How many times did Butler get wide open dunks because Robinson was slow getting back on defense. The majority of the fast breaks all started with Big Dog's man.

Trade him now, while he still has some residual value as a legit shooter. We keep this up, he'll have more TO's per game than shots made.

He will NEVER fit in with this squad, and all he is doing is tearing us apart.

I am actually going to be pretentious enough to say mark my words, as long as Big Dog is a starter for this team ... we will never play at the level we did last year after the All-Star break.

Play.

[Diesel]

Currently... Big Dog is

First on the team in PPG.

Second on the team in RPG

Second on the team in SPG.

Tied for 3rd on the team in APG

Tied for 2nd on the team in BPG.

Our Best FT shooter.

I could see if Big Dog came here and did absolutely NOTHING. However, Big Dog has come in and did just about everything. He has done MORE on this team than he gets credit for.

The sad thing is that he hasn't had proper coaching. What's going to happen once Stotts puts in an offense??

If you want to look over the team for some over paid overrated players...

Theo. What does he give us? Our defense is not much better. He doesn't rebound!! The 2.9 bpg are great but he doesn't really stop a lot of people. Plus he's making over 10 mill.

Ira. Ira is a crap player. NOt worthy of being a starter.

CC. Yep, get him off.

And last but not least...... JT.

Now everyone likes to talk about how we played last yr when the games didn't count. Doesn't matter. That's not big dog's fault. You had players who were playing for Money, Contract, Position.... There's none of that urgency starting this yr.

No one player makes the difference.

Also, be careful about your terminology. When you call a player a CANCER.. He better be JR Rider Like. However, all Big Dog has done is come into a schemeless, systemless team and contributed.

Judge him after roles have been defined.

[Guest]

The team's D suffers when Dog's on the court. We play with less enthusiasm. And honestly, every time he takes mroe than two dribbles, I wince and know taht a turnover will ensue. It's awful. Stotts should fine him every time he dribbles mroe than twice inside the three point line. I'm not joking.

[Playmaker0017]

Diesel,

But, he also leads the Hawks in:

TOs

TO/Assist

and is shooting a god awful percentage for a SF.

He is also the worst defender on the team. And that is REALLY saying something.

I honestly believe that he has shot more than he has passed. And that is a scary thought.

One of two things happen when Big Dog touches the ball -- a shot or a turnover.

Tying for third on the team in assists isn't that impressive considering what we have in the way of assist kings. P

I agree about the coaching, but some of it falls to the player. I honestly believe that he will NOT follow direction. There is no way Stotts can get on Terry for some of the mistakes he makes and honestly think that Big Dog is out there doing something positive.

Also, as for being the team leader on PPG -- I WOULD HOPE SO! He puts it up 5 times more than our next option. 19 times a game! His skill does NOT warrant that many shots.

Play.

[chillzatl]

Last in effort.

Last in defense.

You are correct though. You can't blame him for all this. He is doing what he has done his whole career. Scoring, playing no defense, giving minimal effort. That's glen Robinson. ANyone who thought we were getting more was fooling themselves.

I do think he's a great compliment to shareef, despite his shortcomings. This team needs a playmaker and a leader.

[Playmaker0017]

ChillzAtl,

I never knew much about Glenn before he came to ATL. I knew he was the guy who wanted 100M and was an all-star. I figured... any all-star can dribble.

But, I would be willing to bet that I could strip him a couple times if we played 21. (well, if he decided to dribble and not just shoot jumpers over me)

Play.

[KB21]

Say what you want about his effort, but the Bucks did make the Eastern Conference Finals with Big Dog in their line up. If he's as bad of a cancerous attitude with no effort that a lot of you are trying to make him out to be, Milwaukee would have gone nowhere even with Ray Allen and Sam Cassell around him.

[Playmaker0017]

KB21,

I will say it like I have said it before. He is a cancer because he is undisciplined.

The Hawks, like it or not, are a bunch of kids. Big Dog is the oldest and has the most experience of all our players (excluding a bench player). So our kids look to him a bit, and when he plays undisciplined and with a lack of intensity ... so does Terry.

The other team was designed with his type of game in mind. A player can give max performance based on the system he is placed into.

Look at all sports... when a player is traded and his stats POLEVAULT into the next world or DECLINE into mediocrity... people call them winners or losers... but more oft than naught it is the system they play for. Look how McGrady flourished in Orlando with the right system.

Glenn is NOT suited for the Hawks style of offense. He is not suited to EVER have the decision to shoot or not shoot. He is not suited to dribble. All things that we need our SF to do. All the things that Kukoc did with ease.

So, when you look to the past ... remember it was a different cast, and a different system.

Play.

[chillzatl]

But i'm not going to be blind to his shortcomings as a player. The bucks were very good for a few years there and bigdog was a big part of that. But you have to use him properly.

When you give him the ball, you give it to him because you want him to score with it! He's not out there to find the open man, he's there to score the ball! That's just his game. Milwaukee found success with that. Because they would either find him at the right moment or dump it to him early and play off him properly. When we just dump him the ball, we don't play off him AT ALL. We usually just stand around. If the other players would help him and make it easier for him to make a good pass it wouldn't look so bad.

His career average is only 3 to's per game. That's really not that bad for a guy who has taken a lot of shots his entire career. He could easily be there now if the players only helped him some instead of standing there like dorks.

I think he and shareef could be a powerful combo. THey just need someone who can handle the ball confidently and set things up. Someone who can be there to take pressure off either of them when they are doulbled and make a play when things break down. Someone who can get them the ball in the right spot at the right time.

[Playmaker0017]

ChillzAtl,

Again, I think trying to make Atlanta win with him is like trying to force a square peg into a round hole. Yeah, maybe you can do it, but it will take a LOT of time.

Why push them through it? Big Dog is set in his ways...

Trade him to someone he can make an immediate impact on for a player who more suits what we need. A ballhandler. Someone who can play a bit of defense. Who cares if they can fill it up... the Hawks won't have a problem scoring once Big "Ball" Hog is gone.

Play.

[chillzatl]

When he's not being used to take advantage of what he is, he's not going to look his best. He's a career 46% shooter, he's not wasting a lot of shots. The fact that he's averaging career worsts this year in FG% and TO's, I say that he's not being used effectively.

As I said in the other post. You give bigdog the ball when you want him to score. That's it. He is like nique in that respect. When you give him the ball, you aren't expecting him to make a pass. He's out there to score the rock. And as I said, 46% is pretty darn efficient.

He's just not given the proper protection when he's doubled. Nobody gives him help. He's forced to try to dribble away from a double team and he loses it, as most players would. If he were given proper help he'd be ok.

[KB21]

Who is available that:

#1. Is a small forward that is a ball handler,

#2. Can initiate the offense,

and

#3. Is a terrific on the ball defender?

The only way anything could remotely happen on this if if Atlanta convinced Chicago to trade Jalen Rose for Glenn Robinson. That way, Rose could handle the ball and set up the offense, allowing JT to play off the ball.

It's going to be a lot harder to fit this team around JT than it will be to fit it around GR.

[Playmaker0017]

ChillzAtl,

I've yet to see an effective double on Robinson. I have seen teams fake the double, but never actually put a true double on him. So, I still don't know why he is dribbling.

I agree that he is used improperly. But putting him in the role he needs to be in to be effective would mean that you are changing the structure and nature of every one of the Hawks to suit one overrated player.

That makes no sense.

Again, it is forcing the round peg into a square hole. Why do that?

He isn't the worst player in the league, but he MAY be the worst player for our roster.

The Hawks need a ball handler and a defender. We could even take one or the other. Robinson is niether. We can score, with or without Robinson. And if scoring is all he brings to the table ... we don't need him.

I am not blaming him for ALL the Hawks problems. I look at BADCock for that. Trading away Kukoc and a first rounder was stupid and premature. We were starting to get together as a unit. With the addition of a healthy Theo, we'd have been very good. Kukoc wasn't the future ... that much I agree about. But, with him ... we'd have at least a 500 record. I also blame Dermarr for saying, "Don't worry ... I'm not drunk guys... give me the keys."

Play.

[Snaggle]

For players like big dog, there should be stats like hockey, in the points made and the points given up, this way his stats would look the way they should

[Playmaker0017]

Snaggle,

If you look on ESPN.com's message board, I did just that.

But, the worst thing was... it was insanely difficult. I never noticed the caliber of player that he was up against was so shabby. When he wasn't beaten in points, he had 3 more turnovers or was squashed on the boards.

He's wasted on the Hawks. Trade him.

Play.

[KB21]

Our lack of a true backcourt would have once again shown through.

If Kukoc could remain healthy, you'd have a point. However, we all know he would have gotten injured again at some point if he had to log heavy minutes. That would have taken away the one player that could initiate the offense, leaving us with our problematic backcourt and Newble at the small forward position.

Our problem isn't trying to fit the offense around Glenn. Our problem is knowing when to get the ball to Glenn and when to get it to Reef. That's why we need a point guard who knows how to initiate an offense. Jason Terry can't do it. We don't know yet if Dan Dickau can.

[Playmaker0017]

KB21,

I can agree with that. But, I still think that either Big Dog or Terry must go.

There is a mismatch at both positions on the offensive and defensive end. We don't know how to utilize either one effectively.

So, I say we know what Terry can do... I say keep him. Trade the out of shape wonder-plug.

Play.

[Diesel]

In reply to:

---

But, he also leads the Hawks in:

TOs

TO/Assist

and is shooting a god awful percentage for a SF.

---

OK. Let's see. I want to quickly look at some of the SFs you guys drool over here in comparison to Robinson.

Shawn Marion.

1.9 apg. 2.0 TO per game FG%=43.6 PPG =20.6 , RPG = 9.9

Mike Miller.

2.9 apg. 2.06 TO per game FG%= 43.9 PPG=16.2 , RPG = 5.9

Peja

2.2 apg 1.55 TO per game FG% =42.0 PPG=15.9, RPG = 4.9

Lewis

2.3 apg 1.76 TO per game FG% = 44.1 PPG = 17.9, RPG =7.3

Tim Thomas

1.4 apg, 2.06 TO per game FG% = 43.5 PPG= 13.3, RPG = 5.0

Richard Jefferson

2.3 apg, 1.75 TO per game, FG% =51.5%, PPG = 14.7, RPG = 6.8

BIG DOG

3.0 apg, 3.93 TO per game, FG%= 43.5, PPG=20.8, RPG = 7.4

Now, these numbers are very instructive. First off, they say that you are absolutely WRONG about Big Dog's FG% and them being God awful for a SF. IN fact, his numbers are right around right. You would also notice that teams with good PGs produce players with good FG%. Richard Jefferson get a lot of his points by Dunks. Evident by the slipp when you look at his FG%. Anyway, that's not a bad thing. He has a PG that can set him up and get him the ball in the right position. So does Lewis. But what is also evident is that None of these guys have better assists than Big Dog... Even though Big Dog is not supposed to dish off assists. In other words, you claim he's a black hole, but what are these guys?

Finally, it's true that Big Dog's TOs are high. However, some of that is coaching and some is PGing. IF we were to define roles correctly, Big Dog would get the ball in His spot where he can stand still and hit the shot. However, Lon had Grob playing Toni Kukoc's game. That won't work. The other thing is that Big dog out rebounds Most of the field.

Like I said before... Big Dog BRINGS A lot.

[KB21]

I disagree. I say trade Jason Terry and get the true point guard the team needs. Point forwards are few and far between.

[Playmaker0017]

Diesel,

Who said I drool over ANY of those guys? I don't want an all-star. I want a role player. I want a Toni Kukoc. I want an Eddie George. I want a guy who is going to play hard and get us involved.

Statistics are only part of the bill. Each one of those guys play some defense and don't just give a free pass to anyone driving to the basket.

It isn't assists that make a good playmaker either. Those guys pass the ball to a guy who passes to another guy to get an open shot. Just like a lot of Reef's passes. They don't show up... it is an intangible. What makes a ballhog is his inability to pass the ball. I wish there was a stat that showed how many passes a player actually makes. The closest thing is how many shots it takes for each player to get the numbers they obtain. That basically lets one know how many times they let the ball out of their hands. Robinson gets his 20.8 a night on 19.1 shots. The highest of the bunch. Marion was closest with 18.5. You tell me who the ball hog is.

But since you brought out stats -- Out of all those guys there... he has the second lowest shooting percentage, the most turnovers and the worst turnover/assist ratio.

Also, everyone of those players bring a spark to their team.

Play.