Babcock's Recent Deals

[BlackHawkDown]

I have taken a few minutes to examine the deals that Babcock pulled off the last couple of years, that involved draft picks.

In the Deals of 2001 the Hawks trade the rights to the #3 pick and recieved the #27 pick recieved in the deal for SAR. If the hawks had kept the #3 pick and trade to get the #27 pick the year would have netted Pau Gasol and Jamaal Tinsley.

The Hawks also traded the right to last seasons #8 pick in a deal 2 years ago for LOrenzen Wright. The #8 pick was Chris wilcox, but could have been Amare Stodomire or Caron Butler, both at the top of the Rookie Power charts with huge upswing.

THis season lineup could have featured

J Tinsley/JT/Butler or Stodamire/Gasol/Ratliff

A Helll of a lot cheaper than Big DOg and Reef. Plus JT would be expendable to trade for a all star PG.

In the Big Dog Trade we gave up possibly the #8 - #13 pick, which could yield Chris Marcus,WKU,center, bigger than Shaq.

I digress in pointing out we could have picked Mike Miller over DJ

C: Marcus

PF: Gasol

SF: Butler or Stodamire

SG: JT or whoever we can get for him

PG: J Tinsley

Bench: Nazr/UDub Haslem/Hendu/Mike Miller/Wilkes

Ratliff could be trade bait esp. in a deal involving JT. These player are younger, and cost considerably less than the player under contract now.

Oh and lets not forget other bungles such as letting go of Haslem, the Hawks could have easily had him, contrary to popular info.

I dont think Mr. Babcock deserves the praise I have given him recently he has made some poor choices when you look at it. Because of his dersperation to win now. Something we arent doing anyway.

[Admin]

We wouldnt have had Tinsley because we got the 27th pick from Memphis in the deal, so had we not made the deal we wouldnt have had that pick. Also, we would have still been stuck with the bloated contacts of Lo and Brevin as well. Thats something you are definitely overlooking, not to mention we would have still had to keep roster spots open for them. Also, you are forgetting that we would have had to keep Toni and his contract plus a roster spot had we not made the deal with the Bucks.

My point is that just because the team sucks right now, its not Babs' fault entirely. He put together a very talented team in just 3 years from scratch, the players themselves just dont give a [censored] about winning.

[chillzatl]

Mike Miller over DJ I don't see as being such a loss. I think DJ would have been up there stats wise with Miller this year. nobody could predict teh car accident.

One thing of note though. if we had kept those picks and made them as they were made. Our record would probably be no worse than it is right now. Kind of ironic isn't it?

[BlackHawkDown]

In my senario we would have never traded JJ for Brevein or traded our picks to gfet Lorenzen. Instead we could have trade some crap in 2001 to get the #27 pick.

But we are losing anyway why not lose with more upswing. However one thing I did forget about Toni Kontract.

[jeddelong]

You state:

I digress in pointing out we could have picked Mike Miller over DJ.

Check your facts on that one as well. Mike Miller was chosen before Demarr, Orlando had Golden State's pick. We couldn't have had mike miller through the draft. Don't pen that on Babcock. In fact, you ought to look at the drafting sometime. Its unfortunate, but except for a few cases, not too many great players were avilable when it was our turn. My favorite year was 1999 (we had 4 picks but all the stars went directly before our turn, with a few exceptions that many teams missed on)

Pete has made mistakes but he is not only a great human being, but I think he is a stand up basketball guy who did the best with what he had to work with. He kindly spoke to me in Boston when I ran into him, and he writes you all back even though you denegrate him in your e-mails. You all worshipped him before the start of the season, I still stand by his work and hope for better things!

[Playmaker0017]

We never really wanted the #27 pick nor Jamaal Tinsley. We traded him for next to nothing.

Who would have known he would have been the stud he turned into.

20/20 is a dangerous tool my friend. I'm sure looking back on it, any GM looks like a moron.

You never know. Unless you said at the time -- "boy, this is a dumb move" or espoused concerns over the move at the time -- then you shouldn't complain about the moves.

Complain about the players, but how is Bad-[censored] supposed to know that Jamaal Tinsley would studify. That Big Dog would stink up the joint. That Reef wouldn't DEMAND the ball.

I'm sure when the trades were made, you guys smiled big.

Play.

[Diesel]

Dolfan, I agree.

BTW, I was thinking about you when I watched the replay of the Dolphins versus the Chargers some yrs ago. I believe still the best game ever played.

Anyway..

I agree. I would take SAR/Tinsley for Lo, Brevin, and Gasol all over again. First off, Babcock was not going to take Gasol. He was going to take Battier. Second, had we not been so caught up in JT, we could have taken Tinsley or Parker (I liked Tinsley) and we could have been very good with different coaching.

[Jamil]

In reply to:

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Complain about the players, but how is Bad-[censored] (Babcock) supposed to know that Jamaal Tinsley would studify. That Big Dog would stink up the joint. That Reef wouldn't DEMAND the ball.

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How is any GM supposed to know if a player will be the real deal or not? Fact is some GM's have the ability to spot talent while others don't

Babcock has proven time and time again that he can't draft worth a [censored]. That isn't just a few bad luck picks here and there, but he has been consistently bad. [censored], with JT on the block there is yet another player drafted by Pete who hasn't been able to cut the mustard.

In his career as a GM spanning some 15 or so years, not one single player drafted by Pete Babcock has been an All-Star. Nuff Said about that.

Now...I have to take serious issue with your comments regarding Big Dog and SAR. Both of those players have lived down to the reputations that they had prior to coming to Atlanta. Vancouver begged and begged SAR to take a leadership role and DEMAND the ball. He wouldn't. Pete knew this in advance, and the same thing is happening here. Why blame the player for being the same player he was prior to coming here. He came as advertised. If Pete thought simply coming to Atlanta was gonna make SAR a more aggressive player offensively, he thought wrong.

As far as Big Dog goes. What is different about him since coming here that we weren't already warned about? He's still the same ball hogging, no-defense player that he was in Milwaukee!

How could Babcock possibly have forseen that Big Dog would stink up the joint and that SAR would'nt demand the ball? Well, he simply could've asked for a scouting report on those two and that would've told him!

In reply to:

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I'm sure when the trades were made, you guys smiled big.

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Nope! Any time Babcock has made a deal in the last 3 1/2 years, I have prepared for the worst. I'm still waiting on him to prove he can actually improve this team.

[Swopa]

In addition to what Jamil said, in making the Robinson trade, Babcock had to know that he was losing a key ballhandler/playmaker from last year's team (Kukoc) and taking away the starting spot of the defensive player (Newble) who helped energize the second-half run. Apparently it was a gamble he felt he had to make to raise the talent level of the team.

But that's not the only gamble Babcock's made. In giving up last year's lottery pick (which could have been Amare Stoudemire) in the Lo Wright deal, the Gasol pick for Abdur-Rahim, and this coming year's lottery pick for Robinson, Babcock consistently and consciously bet the future of the Hawks on the current roster.

If it's safe to say he lost that bet, then no matter how good a human being he is, it's fair to say, "Sorry, Pete, but you bet your job's future on this roster, too. Bye."

[Jamil]

In reply to:

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If it's safe to say he lost that bet, then no matter how good a human being he is, it's fair to say, "Sorry, Pete, but you bet your job's future on this roster, too. Bye."

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Exactly.

It's constantly (to the point it's becoming tiresome to be reminded of it) brought up by Babcock's defenders about what a nice man he is. I know he's a nice guy....Sturt used to bring him to Hawksquawk to answer questions right on the messageboard! Incredible that a man in his position could make time for the team's fans like that. Babcock's reputation as possibly the nicest GM in all of professional sports is [censored] near legendary. At times I, perhaps the biggest Babcock hater in the world, have felt guilty of the bad things I have written about him over my 3 1/2 year campaign against him.

I have no doubts that he is the nicest GM in the world! We have clearly established that now! And he also holds the record for most ways to take the blame for everything. Notice in every email of his and you see what I mean. By his own definition he has failed.

However, I don't think Pete was thinking about what a nice guy and team player Steve Smith was when he traded him away for the biggest malcontent in Atlanta sports history...a man who carried one of the worst reputations as a human being in NBA history.

Pete should be judged based on job performance and NOT on how [censored] nice he is. He doesn't operate his own job based on that and neither should those who will decide his fate.

[KB21]

I agree with it as well, but I also want to note that it is questionable whether the picks that were trade would have amounted to anything. It's been brought up that the pick we traded could have gotten Amare Stoudamire. Coulda, shoulda, woulda. We don't know if Pete would have taken Stoudamire, and history tells us that he wouldn't have gambled on a high school kid.

It's hard to say what Pete would have done. For one, there was another pick that went to LA in that deal. The 18th pick in the 2000 draft, which LA used to take Quentin Richardson. My guess is, the Hawks would have taken Morris Peterson with that pick. He was a senior, developed player that could have come in to help immediately. But, they did take DerMarr Johnson on the basis of his potential earlier in that draft, so it is questionable if they would have spent another pick on a SG/SF type player. They may have taken a center prospect like Jamaal Magliore or Jake Tsakilidis.

Would they have taken Battier in 2001 if they had taken Peterson in 2000? With Peterson and Battier, would the Hawks have taken Chris Wilcox with the 8th pick in 2002?

[Swopa]

... saying "Pete would have blown the pick anyway" isn't much of a defense.

Though it is amusing to think that trading away picks for three straight years is Babcock's way of saying, "Stop me before I draft again."

[KB21]

There could be something to that.

I remember Pete stating before the 1999 draft when we had 4 1st round picks that he had lost faith in the draft process.

[Diesel]

Can you blame him for losing faith..

Babcock has never had many scouts. I think we have had the smallest scouting dept in the NBA during Pete's stint and it shows on draft night. Couple that with some picks were Kasten's some were Bab's and most of the time, the Hawks followed the MONTRA... We only draft developed Seniors and there are many stupid choices that Babs made and probably would have still made.

For instance, I doubt we would have taken Gasol. I think Battier was coming.

This yr, I doubt we would have gone with Wilcox... We would have taken a Sf (probably Senior). Or Dunleavy Jr?

Anyway, I would still make the Big Dog and Reef trades again. Toni couldn't give us more than 30 games a season over the next three yrs.

[KB21]

Given the situation, I think Battier would have been our pick. However, the situation would have changed if the Lo Wright deal was never made (thusly, no SAR deal would have been made).

[jezmund]

Although I'm not going to praise Babcock for trading for players that play well together, as far as what he gives up for what he gets back, he's not too bad. I don't care what anyone says, the SAR deal was a good one and something we needed to do. He's definitely a keeper IMO. We all know that trading for Lo Wright was costly (Q Richardson and Chris Wilcox) but we wouldn't have gotten SAR without him so it all depends about how you look at it.

[cyman3]

i agree 100%

if we are gonna build around a player, its SAR! Say whateva u want about him... hes a good player.

[Blunt91]

I always wondered why the Hawks could only get the #10pick in the 1999draft and Bimbo Coles for a former allstar in Mookie Blaylock?? Another thing is we traded away Jumaine Jones to the 76ers, we received a future 1st from them which we combined with a future 1st of our own for Lorenzen Wright, how crazy was that?? 2 1strounders for Lo Wright?? He wasn't and still isn't an allstar.Sure we used Wright to get SHareef but I don't think the Lo deal should have ever went down. I have got to ask Pete what were they thinking when they made that deal. I guess theyovervalued the potential of Lorenzen.

[Swopa]

... the playoff sweep by the Knicks, where Sprewell made the Hawks backcourt look very old.

Getting a lottery pick for Mookie was a very good deal on Babcock's parts -- and believe me, many GS fans think it was far too much to give up, though I think it wound up fairly even.

As so often happens in trades, both sides got less than they hoped for, and it was clear why both sides were willing to give up what they did (this is true not just of Blaylock-Terry but last summer's Robinson-Kukoc and Van Horn-Mutombo deals.)

[BlackHawkDown]

1). I dont give a S#$% if Babcock is Standup Guy what does that have to do with it. Nice Guys Finish Last.

2). I forgot the fact we lost Q.Richardson in the Lo Deal also.

The fact is I am not trying to say babcock is supposed to be somesort of God but looking on what could have been versus what is now.

The Hawks have given up too many draft picks and tossed aside the future for the right now. Plus we could have pulled off the Reef deal with or without Knight or Wright the #3 pick was the major component in the deal.

Maybe #3 pick + Kukoc for SAR.

I think JT/Ratliff for a Star Shooting Gaurd would be an excellent deal.

Next Season

C: Marcus

PF: Reef

SF: Butler or Stodamire

SG: JT/Ratliff Trade

PG: Tinsley

Muhammed/U Dub Haslem/Hendu/Richardson/Wilkes