Did the Hawks give away the championship again?

[gsuteke]

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Call it how you like.

However, I remember Al being a top scorer just about every time he played. I can't say the same for JJ. JJ does disappear. I don't mean JJ scores 20 points and goes away quietly. There will be some nights where JJ puts up very little points... But us Hawks faithful will say "BUT he contributed in so many other ways".

Mark my words...

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Al Harrington is a stat stuffer. move on Diesel. perhaps you can contribute to the board in a positive fashion by trying to drown out some of the Negative types.

[Johnnybravo4]

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Call it how you like.

However, I remember Al being a top scorer just about every time he played. I can't say the same for JJ. JJ does disappear. I don't mean JJ scores 20 points and goes away quietly. There will be some nights where JJ puts up very little points... But us Hawks faithful will say "BUT he contributed in so many other ways".

Mark my words...

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JJ can disappear and then still show up to hit game winning shots..like the one he hit the other night. Has Al ever done that..ever? Half the time he is on the bench with knee tendonitis or something.

[Guest Walter]

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He is not worth the money Indiana is paying him.

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Indy is hardly paying him. He definately is worth what Indy is paying and more. Look at the deal he got. It's great for them.

W

[terrynoonan]

Thank you GSU. I'm new to the board and am ready for good Hawks ball this year. But every time I get on someone is talking about Al or salim!?

I play basketball and watch or listen to just about every game and i have to question whether some people on this board have ever actually played with a coach or a ref?

That is my only conclusion. If you watch the games and understand basketball concepts how can you like Al's game?

He does nothing to help you win. Very selfish, unintelligent player.

[Final_quest]

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That's fans of course. I call it a welfare mentality.. but it's the thought that somehow if the Hawks can strike it rich in the draft, they will be a great team. Wasn't that the Clippers Montra for so many years??

I think you have to build a team byu first having a plan... then getting the right player and building around him. I don't know if JJ is the right player. I like JJ a ton, but building around a 2 guard who is not dominant is scary to me.

Then there's the team concept. Just build the best team. However, most teams that are built on the team concept usually have a speciallization. As I look at our roster, all we have is guys who are athletic. That doesn't win. Not without a superstar.

So, you're right... You can't keep cashing in throwing in all your cards hoping to draw 4 aces...

Billy Knight never played 5 card draw. If he had, he'd know that sometimes, you take an incomplete hand and try to build from that.

Are we destined to fail? NO.. But we're closer to failure than we are to a championship.

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Which one of these scenarios include keeping Al? Finding a superstar and building around them or building with a team concept. I'm confused about which one includes Al leading us to a championship from what you have written.

[terrynoonan]

T-Mac is a superstar. How many titles do you see him "leading" his teams to?

I see none.

I think we are buliding a defensive core and J.J. is a superstar the way Joe Dumars was. That's fine with me.

Marvin looks like he could be the next Monster Mash.

Josh Smith is a defensive superstar and his offensive game is growing with leaps and bounds.

WTF do you want?

We will be a solid team this year.

[Diesel]

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Al is a good, not great, player. Solid stats. Solid person. He is not worth the money Indiana is paying him.

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If I'm not mistaken, Indy got him for 4 years 35.3 million dollars. That's an average of 8.8 million per year. You won't find a 18 ppg player for that cheap who is not on his first contract in the NBA. Moreover, we're paying Speedy ~6 million per year over the same time period. I don't believe that Speedy will give us as much as Al can.

I don't know if Keeping Al was the answer... But I do know that trading him for a pick alone was stupid.

[Diesel]

See, that's one of the main problems with Message board writers...

Many of them feel that if you don't agree with their point, then your point is dumb or stupid... There's no different. Get over yourself teke. You haven't said anything that was a great revelation.

Moreover, I'm not being negative. I'm closer to realistic.

Let's check out the facts.

We gave away our second lead scorer for a pick.

Tell me... How will that pick contribute this year? How many points will that pick add? How many games will that pick win?

So the truth is that we traded away Al just to get room on the roster for Marvin.

Do you actually think that's a move that winning teams make?

How many winning teams have traded away one of their better scorers to make room for some other guy to develop?

We're making the moves of a losing team.

[Diesel]

You're trying to read too much into what I said...

I said "You can't keep cashing in throwing in all your cards hoping to draw 4 aces..."

This goes beyond Al.

This goes back to when BK first got here and cleaned house...

Got rid of Shareef, Theo, Nazr, JT, Big Dog, Dickau... We all applauded.

Got rid of Jax, Sura, Hendu, Pryz... We all applauded.

Got rid of Walker, Delk, Hansen, Willis, Anderson... We all applauded.

Got rid of Diaw, Peja.... We all applauded.

Got rid of Al...

Somewhere in the midst of BK's trading players for picks plan.. He had enough players to build a very formidable team. Yet, we're still bottom feeders. And the fans are still applauding us getting rid of players for picks....

Like I said...

BK has to learn that you can't keep dropping down 4 cards and asking for 4 new ones... expecting to find 4 aces. Sometimes you have to take the 9 and 10 of Hearts and try to make a hand with what you got.

I don't have a say.. but if I were to guess, I would say that Chillz and JSmoove are next up for BK's player for a pick program!!

[Final_quest]

Here's the thing. In poker you can win a hand with the 9 and 10 of hearts. In the NBA you can win a game here and there with those cards, but you need a full house or a flush to win the title.

IMO the players you mentioned that we got rid of will not get you a title. I say keep turning in the cards until we get that ace.

[gsuteke]

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See, that's one of the main problems with Message board writers...

Many of them feel that if you don't agree with their point, then your point is dumb or stupid... There's no different. Get over yourself teke. You haven't said anything that was a great revelation.

Moreover, I'm not being negative. I'm closer to realistic.

Let's check out the facts.

We gave away our second lead scorer for a pick.

Tell me... How will that pick contribute this year? How many points will that pick add? How many games will that pick win?

So the truth is that we traded away Al just to get room on the roster for Marvin.

Do you actually think that's a move that winning teams make?

How many winning teams have traded away one of their better scorers to make room for some other guy to develop?

We're making the moves of a losing team.

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and make sure while you're at it nothing gets lost in the translation.

i stated Al Harrington is a stat stuffer, i.e. his contributions to the team were and unfortunately still are being overrated. Move on insinuates he's gone now so let's deal with the here and now. no more revisionist history in the making here, we've already got plenty of that going on already.

that brings us to the negativity. I in no way said you are being negative. I would just like to ask you to be a part of the solution moving this board forward into the Post-Al/Neo-Shelden era.

That pick won't help us this year. it probably won't help us much next year if we are to be a decent squad. was I angry when Al was traded for nothing? did I rant and rave? of course. why keep crying over spilled milk though? I have chosen to move on. if you continue living in the past by posting hypotheticals on the Harrington trade or the drafting of Shelden Williams as others choose to do you are attempting to write your own version of revisionist history.

and one more point while i have your ear. You yourself have not said anything in this thread that is of any revelation. we have both been on the same side of this argument just a few months ago. this is just post regurgitation.

[Diesel]

There's 52 cards... 4 aces..

You can keep turning cards, but you might not get an ace. Moreover, an ace is not guaranteed to win...

The same is true of superstars in this league.

We've been in the lottery for 3 years now. Chillz, Marvin, Shell.. We've missed out on Howard, Paul, and others... e.g.. it's hard to catch an Ace.

Imagine this team had we kept Nazr... Or had we kept Jax...

I know you will give me some BS about causation and how we probably would not have had ... or .... or ...... but the truth is this. We haven't done much with what we got. And soon, it will be their time to go.

We're just neandering.

[DJlaysitup]

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...IMO the players you mentioned that we got rid of will not get you a title. I say keep turning in the cards until we get that ace.

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Only problem with that analogy is...unlike poker...we have to wait a year in between hands (drafts).

Really, it looks like the team is going to be much more fun to watch this year - that's not to say BK or anybody is a genius...just that we seem to have enough talent to be competitive. (hope we can get off to a reasonable start).

[Diesel]

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i stated Al Harrington is a stat stuffer, i.e. his contributions to the team were and unfortunately still are being overrated.

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Stat stuffer is a label that was made up to disqualify a guy based on his "productivity". Tell me.. Was Dominique a stat stuffer? How about Wilt Chamberlain was he a stat stuffer?

Productivity cannot be negative in a game that thrives on productivity. Does nobody else gets this??

Now.. to a more important conversation...

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That pick won't help us this year. it probably won't help us much next year if we are to be a decent squad. was I angry when Al was traded for nothing? did I rant and rave? of course. why keep crying over spilled milk though? I have chosen to move on.

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See.. your remedy is to do nothing and say nothing... Albert Eistein said The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing.

Well, this team is the same way. I'm not saying that Al is the first time to speak out about moving players for a pick. Hell, look at the history since BK has been here. The whole time he has moved players with value for a pick... we've all sat back and said nothing. Next year when It's Chillz being traded for a late midrounder.. what will you say... "i'm moving on"... you're going to continue to move on until there's nothing left.

A famous man once said To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, and be nothing.

[Diesel]

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Really, it looks like the team is going to be much more fun to watch this year - that's not to say BK or anybody is a genius...just that we seem to have enough talent to be competitive. (hope we can get off to a reasonable start).

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Don't we say the same thing at the beginning of every year? The team will be more competitive and fun to watch?

[thesheedera]

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I don't believe that Speedy will give us as much as Al can.

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I have no doubt that he will, unless he misses more than 15 games over the season.

He won't score 18ppg, but he will prevent more opponent baskets and his role in the offense will be as vital and possibly more vital than Al's last season. Al was productive, but I felt he disrupted the flow of the game. He would get the ball, wait for a clear out, and work to get a shot. He was good at it, but he rarely passed to an open cutter or shooter, and everything would come to a halt.

Speedy will get 10-15 ppg, and he'll be responsible for generating a whole lot more as well.

[DJlaysitup]

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Really, it looks like the team is going to be much more fun to watch this year - that's not to say BK or anybody is a genius...just that we seem to have enough talent to be competitive. (hope we can get off to a reasonable start).

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Don't we say the same thing at the beginning of every year? The team will be more competitive and fun to watch?

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Yeah but this time we really mean it!!

[gsuteke]

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i stated Al Harrington is a stat stuffer, i.e. his contributions to the team were and unfortunately still are being overrated.

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Stat stuffer is a label that was made up to disqualify a guy based on his "productivity". Tell me.. Was Dominique a stat stuffer? How about Wilt Chamberlain was he a stat stuffer?

Productivity cannot be negative in a game that thrives on productivity. Does nobody else gets this??

Now.. to a more important conversation...

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That pick won't help us this year. it probably won't help us much next year if we are to be a decent squad. was I angry when Al was traded for nothing? did I rant and rave? of course. why keep crying over spilled milk though? I have chosen to move on.

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See.. your remedy is to do nothing and say nothing... Albert Eistein said The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing.

Well, this team is the same way. I'm not saying that Al is the first time to speak out about moving players for a pick. Hell, look at the history since BK has been here. The whole time he has moved players with value for a pick... we've all sat back and said nothing. Next year when It's Chillz being traded for a late midrounder.. what will you say... "i'm moving on"... you're going to continue to move on until there's nothing left.

A famous man once said To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, and be nothing.

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how many titles did Dominique win? how about Wilt in his prime before he piggy backed with the Lakers? zero.

i venture to say that's how many Al Harrington will win in his illustrious career.

I've said plenty about Billy Knight. don't try the spin angle on me. However, seeing as I do not have the ability to fire Billy Knight there is no point in me continuing ranting and raving.

on to root of this discussion. We have some on this board that are self-promoters. they care less about the Hawks and more about whether the trade they wanted to see happen or the player they wanted to see drafted actually pans out. they exist on this board to stroke their own egos first and foremost.

simply stated we have 2 or 3 posters on this board that want to be NBA GMs so they've adopted this forum as their "NBA."

I want to talk about the Atlanta Hawks. Who is with me?

[Nicholasp27]

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Imagine this team had we kept Nazr... Or had we kept Jax...

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I would not start nazr or jax on this team

[Nicholasp27]

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Productivity cannot be negative in a game that thrives on productivity. Does nobody else gets this??

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yes it can

the game only has so many possessions, so much time on the clock...inefficient productivity is a negative, efficient productivity is a positive

marvin/smoove/chill are more efficient scorers than al; someone has to get al's possessions and touches...and basically our top 8 guys are all more efficient than al was, so we won't be hurting losing his 'productivity'

lebron/wade/jordan/kareem/wilt/etc got productivity that resulted in wins...al doesn't...stat stuffer refers to those who get good stats but don't help a team to win because they are inefficient or they give up too many points on d or other various reasons

not only will our possessions now be more efficient without al out there, but we'll get more rebounds/steals and thus get more possessions/game to score even more

our ppg will be HIGHER this year than last year

our oppg will also be LOWER this year than last year

this will result in more wins