Here is where BK really screwed up...

[TexasPete]

Go dawgs, you haven't read or understood a word I said. I didn't say BK doesn't take players that don't help us. I didn't say we didn't need to address interior defense. Would you at least admit the draft is one of 3 ways that we can acquire players? If we don't take Shelden does that mean we can't address interior defense? I think not. There are people who just refuse to read correctly and then get there panties in a wad. My point was simple...BK seldom gets the BEST player in the draft and we usually get the pick of the litter. Case close. Agree fine. Disagree fine. I've just stated my opinion.

GSUDEKE, I'm done with you. Let's make a deal. I will ignore your posts if you ignore mine. You rarely intelligently debate anyone. Cool?

[GoDawgs21]

Ok Hot Sauce you say we dont take the best player, uh?

Who taken after Boris is head and shoulders better then him?

Who taken after Chill and Smoove are head and shoulders better? (I really want you to look at Iggy and Deng's numbers befroe you respond. When I say head and shoulders as being the best player I dont mean 4 pts. and 3 less rebs)

Then with Marvin everyone predraft said it was Marvin and Bogut. Most laughed that Mil. wouldnt take Marvin. He still hasnt a chance to show what he can do and is 4 years younger the Paul. He was the best player at the time. Hell, if you want to use that you BELIEVED Paul was better on draft night, I cant wait to see what you think of Utah's GM. Billy wanted a scorer and see's the future in Marvin. Utah wanted a PG and shocker they took Chris Paul, oh wait damnt they didnt. Can you imagine the gaul of a team to draft a PG ahead of Chris Paul. How could they? They couldnt have, I must be wrong? Oh my a PG taken before Paul. Imagine that a team didnt even have Paul as their top PG.

[GoDawgs21]

Pick of the litter? BK has only had 2 top 15 picks. The others were 17 and 22, thats in the lower half of the first round. So two top picks I would say would be the pick of the litter. And of these two you are going to say what we should have had Iggy or Deng instead of Chill. Then Paul instead of Marvin. I see teams that have 3 top 15 picks that I could tear to shreads and you are splitting hairs of Chill vs Iggy. How bout Tor? 4 top 15 picks and only 1 starter. Yep I'd much rather have that.

[GoDawgs21]

Quote:

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My point is not that Billy takes bad players. It's that he almost never takes the guy that really helps us the most. Frankly, where we pick every year, I don't find it that difficult to take a good player. That is almost guaranteed picking as high as we do every year. The key is taking the players that give us the quantum leap that we all want. Giving Billy credit for taking good players when he could have had GREAT players doesn't make good sense.

And I would hope even KB21 would admit that Billy ran this past draft like a rank amateur. Mr. Secrecy promising a marginal #5 (at best) player that he was going to be the guy...without even working out the top 5 players? BK didn't even bother to work out Shelden, and all I can do is ask WHY??? Being so sure about a player that you don't do all of your homework is arrogant and negligent. Just for grins, why didn't we work out Roy? Just for the heck of it?

---

Do I even need to respond. Your first line says players that would best help us. So you think Roy coming off the bench getting 5-10 pts vs shoring up interior D with a cheap young player is what helps us best. Ok what ever helps you sleep best at night.

You next point that BK coudl get any good player when we pick. Um, do some hw he has had only 2 picks in the top 15. Like I just said some GM's get 4 in the top 15 and cant make it work. I bet Orlando was glad to have that 12th pick not even sign.

So I am still waiting for these GREAT players that we missed. I'm not look for marginal diffrences in stats and duplicates at positions. Who is GREAT that we missed. Its not like we had shots at Wade,Lebron,Howard,Bosh, or anyone that is all-star caliber, Not a one.

[gutz]

Don't worry GoDawgs! Its obvious Hot Sauce here doesn't know what he is talking about. Are you forgetting that BK has had his hands tied in FA moves since the JJ trade? Are you aware of this? You say in your above post that drafting is only one way to address your needs right? Okay who in the hell was BK supposed to go out and sign in FA other than LO Wright(great signing BTW on the cheap) to address our interior weakness? There wasn't anyone out there worth throwing money at dude. You need to know what options were available to BK in FA and the draft before spouting off like an idiot bashing BK's draft picks. Your argument is awful and has no merit.

BTW does anyone have ESPN Insider? John Hollinger just posted his best 25 available Free Agents for 2007. I'd love to see who is available next offseason. If you could post the list that would be awesome! Thanks

[BossTweed]

GoDawgs21: I agree completely with your posts. Those are the exact points I was trying to make. Good posts.

[TexasPete]

Gutz, you don't know a thing about whether BK's hands are tied or not. Not a thing. In fact, listening to Bruce Levenson (who is a class guy), it is the exact opposite...BK just hasn't found the right guys. So, between you and GD, I have a hard time responding because your facts are off. Second, don't call me dude. I'm not one of your HS classmates. BK had options that you don't know about, that I know about because I have a direct line into two owners. They know how I feel about the situation and happen to disagree. But you need to clam up yourself, the only idiot in this deal is you because you don't know a thing about whats happening in the organization. BTW, the Hawks had other options in the AL deal and chose the Indy deal, but there were options. I take it you wouldn't take CP3 over MW? Iggy over Chill? Roy over SW? Ellis over Salim? Paul Milsap (you probably don't know him) over Solomon Jones? And I bet you loved that your boy Billy didn't work out the top 6 players in the draft, that was fine right? BK is not the worst GM and he isn't in the top 10 either. But all you have in this world is your track record and his isn't too good. He is measured in W's and L's and his Grizzlies and Hawks gigs make him the worst GM record wise in NBA history. Now, you may defend that dubious distinction...but I'm not as sold or as blind as you are. Try supporting the team with your hard earned cash and then come back and talk to me. It might also help if you watch a few games on the tube. And not just Hawks games so you can watch some of the guys your buddy passed on.

[Gray Mule]

Yep. That's what was said. He picked the wrong player

- - - for the 100th time.

That's drafting TWO players per season. Looks like our

G.M. has been at this longer than we thought!

Seriously, what all of us want, regardless of which side

of this discussion you want to take, is for Atlanta to

put an exciting, winning Hawks team on the floor.

We want this done without spending enormous sums of money

on overpriced players, who may or may not make us winners.

We are on one end of this equasion and New York is on

the other end. I don't want to swap all we have for all

they have, do you??

So, we've passed up drafting some VERY good players.

So what. We've drafted some pretty good players during

this time. We can look back with our 20/20 hindsight

and see what all the players who were drafted turned

out for their teams.

None here has ESP (That's not ESPN, by the way) so we

can't look into the future and already KNOW all there

is to know about a player. We can only make an educated

guess, at best.

No matter what move is made by any GM, if it turns out

to less than perfect, someone is sure to KNOW that was

the wrong move - after the fact.

JUST KEEP WINNING - PLAY EXCITING BALL!!

[GoDawgs21]

LOL Quote of the day.

"So, between you and GD, I have a hard time responding because your facts are off." --- I ate paint chips as a kid

Our facts are off, I showed you what ever GM has done in the 3 drafts that show what each player has been able to do.

I have shown how bad our defense was last year.

What facts have you shown?

NOT A ONE. The only point you have made is I can see 20/20 hindsight and I knew better then everyone that Paul was going to blow up. The f'n Jazz and all their wonderful NBA minds including Jerry Sloan took another PG in front of Paul. Yes, he has turned out to be a fine player, but you cant know that going in.

Secondly, I hope to revist this years from now when Paul's small body catchs up to him and he is injury prone.

So I asked you to state me one fact. Name a player head and shoulders, or that would have made a quantium leap for our team. Marvin was young and we knew it might take some time. But even your boy CP3 didnt get NO into the playoffs. They were there 3 years ago. But didnt make it last year. If he is god reincarnated like you think how come he couldnt take them to that quantium leap of the playoffs???????

[gutz]

Quote:

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Gutz, you don't know a thing about whether BK's hands are tied or not. Not a thing. In fact, listening to Bruce Levenson (who is a class guy), it is the exact opposite...BK just hasn't found the right guys. So, between you and GD, I have a hard time responding because your facts are off. Second, don't call me dude. I'm not one of your HS classmates. BK had options that you don't know about, that I know about because I have a direct line into two owners. They know how I feel about the situation and happen to disagree. But you need to clam up yourself, the only idiot in this deal is you because you don't know a thing about whats happening in the organization. BTW, the Hawks had other options in the AL deal and chose the Indy deal, but there were options. I take it you wouldn't take CP3 over MW? Iggy over Chill? Roy over SW? Ellis over Salim? Paul Milsap (you probably don't know him) over Solomon Jones? And I bet you loved that your boy Billy didn't work out the top 6 players in the draft, that was fine right? BK is not the worst GM and he isn't in the top 10 either. But all you have in this world is your track record and his isn't too good. He is measured in W's and L's and his Grizzlies and Hawks gigs make him the worst GM record wise in NBA history. Now, you may defend that dubious distinction...but I'm not as sold or as blind as you are. Try supporting the team with your hard earned cash and then come back and talk to me. It might also help if you watch a few games on the tube. And not just Hawks games so you can watch some of the guys your buddy passed on.

---

Hey DUDE I can call you that all I want. What are you gonna do about it? Don't act like i'm some young HS punk. Second i'm sure you have direct ties with the owners. Give me a break. How can you say he doesn't have his hands tied? are you nuts? The courts even said he can't sign anyone over 4yrs. Get your facts straight man! Your the one showing zero facts with your arguments. You haven't backed one of them yet. I've also heard of Milsap btw. He is a great rebounder no doubt but undersized. I know a lot more about college basketball and its players than you. Trust me.

Pertaining to BK and his decisions in FA, that was exactly my point in the last post if you care to read it. There hasn't been one good FA out there for BK to throw some serious money at. I'm sure if the owners wanted to go another way in the AL trade they would have made that clear to BK obviously. They own the team right? That is another reason why I seriously doubt your so-called ownership connections. I could care less either way. I also watch plenty of basketball and obviously have more knowledge of it than you.

[TexasPete]

Keep believing in yourself, Gutz, things will turnaround for you. Keep your chin up, DUDE.

[gutz]

Oh don't worry! I'm doing great! Just love how you make all these stupid arguments without backing them up! Its laughable and I think most on this thread agree with me. Please answer GoDawgs questions above so you don't look like a complete fool.

[Sothron]

FWIW I was, and still am, on the Deron Williams bandwagon. I wanted us to draft him second. He has outplayed Chris Paul to me so far in their careers since Deron can actually play defense and isn't small enough to just be pushed around like Paul routinely is.

And Knight's hands have been tied. The ownership won't spend over the salary cap and that was before the ownership fiasco. The only defense of Knight I will ever accept is in fact the ownership situation and its impact on his ability to alter the roster.

[Sothron]

In the spirit of the new rules sticked at the top, please stop insulting each other and just argue your respective positions. I'd hate to see one of you get banned for flaming or have this thread locked for flaming.

[GoDawgs21]

Ok there hotty, since we all dont have the hindsight you do lets think what BK could have been thinking predraft picks.

2004:

The Best 10 Years from Now?: This could be the strongest position in the Draft, as we feel at least 8-10 of the guys will develop into regulars at the next level. But as far as superstar potential goes, we can't escape Josh Smith ... Luol Deng and Josh Childress should develop into a fringe NBA All-Stars, but it's Smith who has the greatest potential for stardom.

Source: http://probasketball.about.com/cs/rumors/a...onranks04_3.htm

Then a review placing everyone except Howard and Iggy in the same catagory, so be prepared to ask why picks 2-5 are still about par with our pick at 6 and also picks 7 and 8.

« Reneging on My Tigers PredictionNBA and MLB Transaction Analysis »2004 NBA Draft Review and Analysis

I’ve decided to add a few new features to the site today. Once a week I’m going to be doing a Draft Review much like the one you will see below. I’ll be starting with the 2004 NBA Draft and moving backwards, since I believe it takes at least 2 years before a draft can be accurately evaluated. The day will vary so check back often. Also I’ve added an “Ask J-Lits” section upon suggestion of one Colin Pybus. The purpose of this section is to submit a question to me and I’ll devote a blog entry every so often to answering the best questions. Enjoy boys and girls!

Top 10 of the 2004 NBA Draft

Dwight Howard - Orlando Magic

Emeka Okafur - Charlotte Bobcats

Ben Gordon - Chicago Bulls

Shaun Livingston - Los Angeles Clippers

Devin Harris - Dallas Mavericks

Josh Childress - Atlanta Hawks

Luol Deng - Phoenix Suns

Rafael Araujo - Toronto Raptors

Andre Iguodala - Philadelphia 76ers

Luke Jackson - Cleveland Cavaliers

Top 10 Analysis - This draft was widely regarded as being very weak at the top but having a good number of quality NBA players spread throughout. Dwight Howard may buck this trend however. He’s turning into a legit NBA superstar in Orlando, which is quietly developing into one of the better teams in the Eastern Conference. Andre Iguodala was an absolute steal at #9 for Philly. He’s another possible star in the making. Harris, Livingston, Deng, Gordon, Childress and Okafur are developing into solid NBA players. The biggest bust is obviously the Raptors choice of “Hafa” at #8. Araujo wasn’t supposed to go til the end of the first round and through his first few seasons, we are seeing why. A real waste of a pick by Rob Babcock. Luke Jackson has had some injury problems but he isn’t looking to be Top 10 worthy either in Cleveland.

First Round Steals

17th Overall - Josh Smith, Atlanta Hawks - Smith looks like a star in the making to me once he matures. His athleticism is ridiculous and he has an uncanny ability to block shots.

20th Overall - Jameer Nelson, Denver Nuggets - Although Denver officially drafted him, Jameer is doing his damage in Orlando. He’s an outstanding player with great leadership qualities and he’s only played two seasons. Jameer, Dwight and Darko may be quite the force in a few years.

24th Overall - Delonte West, Boston Celtics - The Celts got a quality starting PG at the bottom of the first round, as West was always overshadowed by his teammate at St. Joseph’s, Jameer Nelson. West is now part of a dangerously young Celtics squad who will be scary if they can stay together for a few years.

26th Overall - Kevin Martin, Sacramento Kings - Martin is an ultra-skinny SG who found the perfect situation in Sacto. He’ll continue to be a key part of their rotation for years to come.

Second Round Steals

31st Overall - Anderson Varejao, Orlando Magic - The Magic made a bad move getting rid of this guy, Drew Gooden and Steven Hunter for merely Tony Battie and 2 second round picks. He’s acclimated himself well in Cleveland and will be looking to have a breakout season this year, when he’s finally healthy.

39th Overall - Chris Duhon, Chicago Bulls - Duhon is the greatest steal in this draft. A dependable PG/SG for the Bulls who excels defensively, he’s a core part of their foundation for years to come.

Biggest Busts

8th Overall - Rafael Araujo, Toronto Raptors - Hafa is a massive bust and he’s not going to reverse this. No mobility, no instincts, no confidence, you name it and Araujo doesn’t have it. This pick can be directly linked to the firing of Rob Babcock.

10th Overall - Luke Jackson, Cleveland Cavaliers - Its tough to find busts in this draft because there aren’t a lot of players who’ve actually done well yet. Jackson doesn’t look like he will do well in the future either.

Source:http://jefflittle.ca/blog/?p=34

There are too many to copy and paste for the Marvin pick but read at your leisure. Some even saying yes the Hawks are stacked at the wing but you must draft Marvin.

http://www.sportscolumn.com/story/2005/6/27/225020/231

While he might be short on experience, the talent is there. The scouts I talk to still are in love with Williams' potential, and in recent games his performance has improved considerably. After shooting 37.3 percent from the field in November, he upped the mark to 49.0 percent in January, while averaging a more respectable 8.5 points and 4.8 boards. And with his gorgeous jumper, it's only a matter of time before he becomes a devastating 3-point threat. Right now he's shooting that shot from a few feet inside the 3-point line, but once he starts getting an extra point on those shots it will be a much more effective weapon.

"We're very pleased with Marvin's progress as a player because he can't help but get better," said Woodson. "I think the upside for him is going to be good because he does a little bit of everything. He defends, he rebounds, he can make a shot, he runs the floor well. There are a lot of good qualities in his basketball game. But he still has a lot of things he's got to learn before he gets to that upper tier."

To sum it up, then: When you include Williams' steeper learning curve, it's not that surprising that he's so much further behind Paul as a rookie. Perhaps the Hawks wonder what might have been if they had taken Paul, but they realize they hardly blew it by taking Williams. Yes, Paul might be making an immediate trip to the All-Star Game, but few basketball people would be surprised if Williams is joining him in a few years. And if it works out that way, the Hawks needn't lament passing on Paul.

And this comes from one of the biggest haters of the Hawks Hollinger on ESPN. He had an easy opp. to continue his bashing and didnt. Funny if your enemies cant even knock it how do fans.

Source:http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/insider/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&id=2313267

Ok Hotty where are your facts.

So while the picks may not be what you liked. They have all resulted in better then average players and were what most draft experts projected. So why are they terrible picks please tell me?

[gutz]

I apologize for any bad mouthing towards Hot Sauce. Just can't understand why he is making these arguments with no facts to back them up. Especially when our Hawks are looking good for a change and once we get Marvin back we will be even better.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Quote:

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I'm not complaining at all about a 2nd round pick. I'm complaining about Billy Knight passing over another fine young talent. This kid was strongly considered on the Hawks board and they went with the wrong guy...for the 100th time. The Hawks were said to have loved Ellis...and they went with Salim. This kid is a helluva lot more than a number 2 pick, he is headed to the big time within a few years. I love Marvin...but I would take Paul. I love Childress...but I think Iggy or Deng are better. I don't like Shelden at all...would have loved Roy. I like Speedy...would rather have drafted Roy and received something more for AL, or gotten help on the front line in free agency. I don't like Salim...I would rather have Monta Ellis. I like Solomon but there were several players BETTER on the board and we passed on them for a raw player.

This rebuilding effort has been DELAYED a year or two with choosing good players...when BETTER ones were on the board. If you can't see it, I can't help you. But I spend a large chunk of change on my tickets every year so I am actually invested in this deal...I don't just talk about it on message boards. I will be in Philips, God willing, 35 times this season and I haven't seen the playoffs for 7 freaking years. I want Billy Knight to start taking the BEST player just once or twice. Not a decent player, the BEST player. Make sense?

---

So this is your team Pete?:

C - ZaZa

PF - Smoove ( because he'd have to play PF almost exclusively )

F - Deng

G - JJ

PG - Paul

Bench:

G - Roy

G - Ellis

PG - Lue ( he'd still be under contract )

F - ( free agent pickup to replace Al . . don't know who that would've been though, seeing how just about every decent big man re-signed with their current team or went to the Bulls . . . LOL . . unless you do like the Clips did, and give ridiculous money to Tim Thomas )

F/C - Batista ( we'd have to keep him on the squad )

F/C - Wright ( we'd HAVE to make a play for him, seeing that we have no big people whatsoever )

With this team, Monta would have the same problems getting on the floor, that Salim is having now. The coaches would favor Lue, until Monta proved that he is/was the better player.

Monta, much like Diaw, is in the PERFECT SITUATION to fit his style of play. All he has to do is worry about scoring the basketball, because he definitely isn't running the team.

And who would be the guy that the Hawks would've gone after, instead of Solomon? With this "video game" squad you've assembled, we'd have to draft a big man that could rebound and/or defend at the very least. Is Paul Davis ( Michigan St.) your guy? Oh I know . . it would be Kevin Pittsnoggle ( West Virginia ). Or maybe you'd take ANOTHER guard, and get a very hyped kid like Daniel Gibson ( Texas ). I've seen Solomon play while at South Florida. He's an energy guy much like Keon Clark was a few years back with the Nuggets, Raptors and Jazz.

Pete . . . this is a nice team if you're playing NBA LIVE 07. You could run and gun all day with that squad. The problem . . . the HUGE PROBLEM with this squad, is that they'd be one of the weakest defensive teams in NBA history.

All of you BK detractors are hilarious. Complaining about 2nd round picks, when 75% of 2nd round picks don't even make it to their 2nd contract. Complaining about Childress, when he's one of the most complete players in the the league. The only thing that Iggy and Deng can do better than Chill, is dunk . . . that's it. They're definitely not smarter players than Childress. And there is no significant difference between the three players when it comes to their overall talent as ballplayers.

I've said this on the AJC blogs, and every other blog/forum concerning the Hawks:

From top to bottom, the Hawks have assembled their most talented team since the 2002 - 03 season.

This team EASILY goes 9 deep . . and possibly 10 and 11 deep . . without a significant dropoff happening on the offensive and defensive ends.

Shelden, Wright, and Solomon have already improved a very weak defensive frontline to the point that we can have bad shooting nights, and still be very mucn in the game offensively, because they're limiting scoring on the other end.

The ONLY GLARING MISTAKE that BK has made during his tenure as Hawks GM, was not drafting Chris Paul. And even that may turn out not to be a mistake, if Marvin blossoms into the player that we all think he can.

[Final_quest]

I was listening to Paul Hewitt talking about Chris Paul on the radio. The host said the Hawks must have scouted Paul when he played Tech because Tech manhandled Paul usually. Then Hewitt said that he wouldn't be surprised if Paul wasn't on the Olympic team in 08 because he couldn't man up with bigger guards.

You wonder what Paul's legacy will be in a few years.

[GoDawgs21]

Thank you northcyde I was getting around to this and constructing a roster with his wishes. So who rebounds? Who plays defense? IF one of your fowards gets hurt like Marvin did who steps up? You run a 3 guard lineup out there? Smith is a off the ball weak side defender, not a man up guy yet, and Zaza is not known for holding the paint. So who stops the layup line? Yes we could gun for the NBA 3 pt record but what happens on bad shooting nights? How is this guard heavy lineup working for NY? It would be almost identical team. Q Rich, Marbury, Francis, Crawford, but no meat. You cant compare that lineup to PHX either because it is no where as fast to run like they do, and you still dont have a low post presence like Amare.

[gutz]

Great post Northclyde! Maybe this will help Pete understand that he is wrong!