I do see BK and Woody borrowing from the Pistons

[Sothron]

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Now onto your second question (you see unlike you I back stuff up wtih actual facts, you still havent answered a single question from my thread yesterday not one) and now i ask to name one all-star we missed and you havent. To have a debate and to acknowledge your views i need responses and facts. Not uh I like that GM, then I show you he did what BK is doing and you go another direction.

What you are discussing with the players as a D grade vs a C grade, does happen. This happens mostly to big guys cause there is so few. your flaw is that sg/sf is the most talented position in the nba. right now before i respsond anymore go through the league and name 2 starting g/f that chill is better then. teams over pay for major upgrades they dont pay big money to go from d to c. they pay to go from d to a like we did with JJ. So name 2 guys that start for teams that chill would be taken over for starters. the 2/3 is the deepest postion in the league. so teams might pay big for guys like redd, allen, etc. very few of these spots become available each year because it is so deep, and many teams lock these guys up. Just like mentioned Prince is probably a top 10 guy at that spot. he was named early on espn as a top 50 player in the league and he didnt get wooed by anyone. so if chill is supposed prince "like" who is gong to pay him big. But please name two guys chill starts over right now that teams would make a move for him and give him startin min and points.

You also say he didnt know about JJ, correct sir. But its hard to sign any free agents when you are over thea cap. No he didnt know he woudl get him, but he did know he had money to go get a top FA. Say in two years we are god willing able to sign Howard, did we know that no, but if we didnt getrid of the bad contracts, you woudlnt even be able to make a move when he is available.

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At least you managed to avoid too many personal attacks in this post.

Teams that have inferior starting SGs to Chill right now:

Bobcats

Denver

Houston

Indiana

Orlando

New Orleans

Sacramento

Toronto

Washington

You could also make arguments for Utah, Phoenix,Portland, New York, Minnesota, Memphis and Boston. Obviously some of those teams are dependent on how rookies or very young guys pan out but you get my point.

The other teams could definitely use Chill as a starter. I did not say they were going to throw a max deal or something insane at him either. But considering what we know about Knight and the (cheap) ownership situation...how much are WE going to really offer him and Smooth to keep them? And still have room for JJ, Zaza, Claxton and reupping in the near future (at that point) Marvin and Shellhead?

If you want to use replacement value as an argument that's fine. But that means we'll be shipping them out in a S&T to either get a player who accepts a reduced role or for a draft pick who will come in knowing that role. Who we would then in four to five years turn into another trade but that's looking way ahead.

I don't know what questions you asked me in another thread, if you repost them here in this thread since I know its one you are responding to me then I will try to answer them.

As for the All-star talent, we passed on at least three point guard that will be All-stars: Raymond Felton, Deron Williams and of course Chris Paul. We also passed on two guys who are already getting a lot of attention: Jameer Nelson and Delonte West. Or how about passing on Chris Duhon who could easily start for us right now and instead grabbing Royal freaking Ivey? In that same draft (note I'm picking out players from just one draft here so far) we passed on Biedrins who has looked like a beast in limited minutes.

I already talked about Deng and Iggy. Al Jefferson has looked good and Robert Swift was a great young big man prospect. Now I'm not saying all of these guys are All-stars but you can not honestly tell me there wasn't some decisions just in that draft we can look back on and criticize Knight for. I don't know if you were on the internet in 2004 but I know at realgm.com we were all shocked as hell that Chill was our pick. We thought it was a slam dunk that either Gordon, Deng or Iggy would be our pick.

As for the other point you are making about the salary cap, I'm sorry but I don't give much shrift to empty cap space. I have always been a long time proponent of not blowing cap space on middling' talent (see Henderson, see Dampier, see Tariq Abdul-Wahad) but we have seen teams get better deals than what we got. If you remember at the time of the trade both SAR and Theo were fresh off All-star appearances, still under 30 and very good players at their positions. All we managed was a late teens draft pick? UGH. Its not a fair return of investment.

I may just be middle management in a Fortune 500 insurance company but I can appreciate trading tangible assests for questionale benefits.

[AtLaS]

This is why we need to lock up Smith or Chill after THIS season, that way they don't get a chance for the market to determine their value, kind of how Pheonix failed to do so with JJ.

Neither one of them will get a huge deal, their numbers just aren't good enough for that. I bet we could lock up Smoove for 5 years 35-40 million at the MOST.

Plus there aren't many teams with enough cap space to offer a lot of money to a questionable player like Smith or Chill. Noone knows how good they would be as a starter.

Bottom line, we should lock at least one of them up after this season. If we have a good year this year, they will want to remain Hawks..

[GoDawgs21]

LOL did you even look at the teams you listed.

You make it so easy it isnt even any fun, so our busted pick is better then these starting g/f for these teams

New Orleans - So now Chill a busted pick by you is better then David West, desmon mason, or Peja

Washington- has deshawn stevenson, caron butler or Jarvis hayes

houston - tmac and battier (are you kidding me you have our busted [pick being better then tmac or battier) lol

denver - carmelo anthony at the g/f spot or jr smith

orlando - grant hill or turgaglo (look at his stats)

inda - stephen jackson and granger (maybe i see this one, but granger came on huge last year)

sacramento - ron artest and kevin martin (picked by espn as th number 1 breakout canidate)

toronto with mo pe i can see

SO YOU ARE SAYING A BUSTED PICK IS BETTER THEN EVERYONE ON THIS LIST LOLOLOLOLO, hold on fell down gotta get up, if Chillz is better then half of this list I will say in the draft he was in he was the biggest steal ever. You got him better then Peja, Artest, tmac and battier. how at that rate we should get a top player and a 1st rd for chill the year before FA so i suggest we trade him and get that value

[GoDawgs21]

You said we passed on all-stars. I can play your game I think Smith and Marvin have shown talent they could be all-stars. But have they been all-stars. NO.

Your points contradict themselves, first chillz is a bad pick, then he could start for half the teams in the league. I want you to go back and see what % of number 6 picks are starters in the league 5 years later. there are so many top 5 picks that dont become starters. So which is it, is he a horrbile pick or is he an nba starter???????

You act like Theo and Shariff were key cogs and amazing players. Shariff has made 1 all-star game and 1 playoff apprence when he was a 6th man backing up weber and miller. Notice when he starts no playoffs.

did these guys make there new teams better when they got there??? Thats cause they were propped up stars. It wasnt like we traded an Elton Brand away or something.

My next question is if we had all this talent why didnt we make the playoffs??? You act like we were the Florida Marlins in 1998 and just dismantled and traded all of our talent away. Oh wait they trade all the old high priced vets for picks and cap space how did that work out again, oh they got younger got dontrelle and other key guys they wnated to build around in the draft and then went and won antoher. geee, i see a formula here. We were a 40 win not going to the playoffs team for 3 years with those guys. So its not like we broke up a dynasty. We broke up some old vets that couldnt make it to the playoffs to get younger and regroup in 3 to 4 years im sorry your not as patient as others, but you haveto give it time.

[Final_quest]

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As for the All-star talent, we passed on at least three point guard that will be All-stars: Raymond Felton, Deron Williams and of course Chris Paul. We also passed on two guys who are already getting a lot of attention: Jameer Nelson and Delonte West. Or how about passing on Chris Duhon who could easily start for us right now and instead grabbing Royal freaking Ivey? In that same draft (note I'm picking out players from just one draft here so far) we passed on Biedrins who has looked like a beast in limited minutes.

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I would simply like to point out that all of these players were not in the same draft. We'll probably just have to agree to disagree overall.

[Sothron]

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LOL did you even look at the teams you listed.

You make it so easy it isnt even any fun, so our busted pick is better then these starting g/f for these teams

New Orleans - So now Chill a busted pick by you is better then David West, desmon mason, or Peja

Washington- has deshawn stevenson, caron butler or Jarvis hayes

houston - tmac and battier (are you kidding me you have our busted [pick being better then tmac or battier) lol

denver - carmelo anthony at the g/f spot or jr smith

orlando - grant hill or turgaglo (look at his stats)

inda - stephen jackson and granger (maybe i see this one, but granger came on huge last year)

sacramento - ron artest and kevin martin (picked by espn as th number 1 breakout canidate)

toronto with mo pe i can see

SO YOU ARE SAYING A BUSTED PICK IS BETTER THEN EVERYONE ON THIS LIST LOLOLOLOLO, hold on fell down gotta get up, if Chillz is better then half of this list I will say in the draft he was in he was the biggest steal ever. You got him better then Peja, Artest, tmac and battier. how at that rate we should get a top player and a 1st rd for chill the year before FA so i suggest we trade him and get that value

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Er, buddy, you are dead wrong on who you have at the starting spots for most of those teams at the two position. It might help if you actually do a little bit of research first. T-mac is a SF, so is Carmello, so is Desmond Mason, so is Peja, so is Danny Danger Granger, so is Battier, so is Grant Hill. Every single team I listed could use Chill as an upgrade over their current starting shooting guard.

You'll excuse me if I think Chill is better than Deshaun Stevenson (lol) or Luther Head or Kirk Snyder or JR Smith or even crazy as [censored] Stephen Jackson. To be fair to Jax he's probably equal talen to Chill but he's nuttier than a fruitcake so I think the Pacers would want someone more dependable.

And again, you show me where I said Chill was a bust. I don't think he was the right player to be taken #6 when we still had all those other options available. THAT BEING SAID he's still a C+ player right now who might grade out to a B- solid starter for years for another team. THAT is my point. You call Joe Cool an "A" player. I actually agree with that. So even if Chill does become a "B" talent you don't start "B" over "A" and in today's salary cap you can't afford to pay a "B" a "C" money.

Someone else is going to pop enough paper to get Chill's interest. If you are seriously telling me that not even two or three teams in the entire NBA couldn't use him as an upgrade then YOU are the one calling him a "busted pick" not me.

[GoDawgs21]

I need to do HW, please use this to do YOUR HW. I will give you the link to Houston's, but as the starting depth chart g/f in sg postion is Tmac. So why dont you look at something before you speak. I used these exact depth charts to use for my names. Next, Chill is a more natural 3 or the G/F position since he isnt as quick as most 2's to guard on defense. Thus he is a decent g/f but to call him a sg is a stretch. You were the one that said someone would give him a shot at the SG. So there for his skills are a bit deminshed as a 2. Stevenson, yeh defensive stopper. Yeh had 18 and 4 tonight. What's Chillz career high they play the same roles over the year. But please go through team by team on this depth chart list before you try and call me out. Cause sir you are wrong. But thats about par for the course for you the past several days.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/teams/depth?team=hou

I am not calling Chill a bust either i think for the talent that was in that draft he was picked in the right spot, him iggy, and deng are toss ups. i feel he was a fine pick. youhave flip flopped from him being a bad pick, to being lured away to start else where. now pplease look at these depth charts and put on your dunce cap and be quiet.

[GoDawgs21]

See thats the real funny part you mention charlotte, but there starting back court is brevin knight and raymond felton. The exact guy you say we missed, and thus us havinga bad pick. So now you have him replacing a guy or upgrading a guy you used to say would have been a better pick later on by BK. Do you even think before you type, I just covered your first list. Your also list included boston which would be paul pierce. need i go on.

You mention luther Head and kirk snyder, funny they are on the same team and they are 3rd and 4th on the rockets depth charts. So yeh i think chill could be better then them, but we were looking for starters. tmac and bonzi are ahead of of those guys on their own team. Wait is that another team that can hold on to 4 guys that are 6-6 to 6-9, tmac at the 2, bonzi, battier, howard. funny i see more and more teams built like the hawks. all by gm's u say are better the bk but they are doing the same thing.

you are the king of changing your stane. earlier it was upgrading from a d to a c now its a c or b to b or a. Damn that bad pick with so many other options is going to be an all-star by theend of the night when you keep changing. I lvoe Chill cause he allows us to have that depth we need to run. Love him to death. But I am just showing your flip flop arguments, and why will be able to keep him. the same reason detriot kept prince. other teams arent ging to through more then 5 or 6 million a year to a guy at a spot they either have filled or have projects they want to work out. Thats not saying chill and prince are bad, they are key for their teams, but other teams dont give them tons of money to leave. Just a fact.

[Sothron]

http://www.rotoworld.com/Content/Depth_NBA.aspx?sport=NBA

Read it. If you can look at the actual depth charts as they stand right now and tell me Chill can't start for AT LEAST 3 other teams then you are insane. Or are you seriously telling me you'd take Stevenson or JR Smith or Luther Head or an extremely small backcourt in Knight/Felton with one of them starting out of necessity at the wrong position? I mean please.

I don't know what prescriptions you are currently not taking but I have never "flip flopped" on anything related to the Hawks. You keep saying I called Chill a "bust" and I keep repeating that I never said that, I just said we could have taken a better player AT THAT spot. Of course you are already proven guilty of literally making up [censored] that people say when you tried to come up with some crap about what I said earlier about my feelings for the team so I'm not exactly surprised you are now trying to "Clintonize" something else I've supposedly said.

[GoDawgs21]

no thats my point I am giving you 3 or 4 teams. But with so few teams looking for a guy like that and multiple guys at that postion it is highly unlikely that he gets an offer we cant match.

[GoDawgs21]

just so you can get it out of your silly little head, you keep bringing up luther head, even the depth charts you showed me dont have him starting. Look at the box score from last night or any game this year. TMac and Pejas play the role of starting 2 guard. With Battier and Mason play the respective 3 spots on those rosters. That's why I gave you the benefit of the doubt in my previous response and listed the atarting 2's and 3's for each team you gave to show he prob wouldnt start over any of them. Notice in the box score you boy Luther head who you mention over and over plays Chill same roel getting 29-30 minutes of the bench. Still not starting. So now which 2 teams were going to be fighting over our bad pick to give him tons of money when guys like Prince dont even get offered that much. I love Chill and he is vital to our team, but he isnt the type of player that gets lured away by a huge contract.

http://www.sportsline.com/nba/gamecenter/b...0061108_HOU@MIL

[Sothron]

I disagree. There are at least three of four teams that if they had him, Chill would be their starting 2 guard (possibly 3 as well) over what they have now. I am worried that won't be able to keep him once his rookie contract expires.

You are confident we can. Guess what here? I hope you ARE right. I don't want to lose Chill and the flexibility he gives us off the bench.

[Guest Walter]

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I don't know how much more diverse you can get than having 4-5 players that can play multiple positions on the floor. That, to me, is the definition of diversity on the basketball court.

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...is diverse. Yes, it's not a room full of white people, but a room full of african americans is not diverse.

Five 1st rd draft picks. Five 6'8" forwards. Diaw was the 6'8" player least resembling any others likely because of his international upbringing, but there is only so much "diversity" to be had between a room full of 6'8" forwards.

I wouldn't much care if I thought the majority of these players were clearly the BPA. They weren't and aren't. That hurts. If your going to make a mistake not considering positional and team needs, don't compound it by getting the lesser player also. Don't then the very next year stand your own philosophy on its head and make a bigger, inverse mistake. KB, prior to BK obviously wanting SW, you were 110% against getting SW because of this reason, but we all know that your loyalty lies with BK and not the team. Thus, your about face on Roy and JJ being a "perfect" backcourt and SW being "someone BK should NOT consider".

Anyhow, if anyone can indicate in the history of the NBA where 5 consecutive 1st rd picks, particularly high ones expected to compete to start or greater, were any less "diverse" I'd love to here such nonsense for a good laugh.

W

[BusBoyIsBack]

I agree it's all about depth. Scary thinking how much of it we'll have when Marvin returns. Our players could play with wreckless abandon at the 3 and 4 spot.

[DJlaysitup]

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I agree it's all about depth. Scary thinking how much of it we'll have when Marvin returns. Our players could play with wreckless abandon at the 3 and 4 spot.

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I hope they will. My guess is that Shelden knows he can be a force inside and doesn't feel he has to put up stats to be appreciated. That may have been a part of the draft deal (I'm always thinking conspiracies)...anyway, Lo is likely in the same boat but what happens when MW and JS are going against each other for stats and angling for the big contracts? I hope they have the maturity to play team ball when they are sharing minutes at the three.

[BusBoyIsBack]

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I agree it's all about depth. Scary thinking how much of it we'll have when Marvin returns. Our players could play with wreckless abandon at the 3 and 4 spot.

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I hope they will. My guess is that Shelden knows he can be a force inside and doesn't feel he has to put up stats to be appreciated. That may have been a part of the draft deal (I'm always thinking conspiracies)...anyway, Lo is likely in the same boat but what happens when MW and JS are going against each other for stats and angling for the big contracts? I hope they have the maturity to play team ball when they are sharing minutes at the three.

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Well that's why I think we aren't going to overpay for a FA. We have tons of money but it can be used to keep the core of this team together. I think if we start winning, Marvin and SMoove will be happy with sharing time AND staying Hawks for a very long time.