I do see BK and Woody borrowing from the Pistons

[Sothron]

Don't mistake me, I'd love to see those two on our team for years to come. No question.

As for the players you specifically mentioned, I don't see Deng leaving the Bulls or Iggy leaving the Sixers. But there will always be at least three to five teams looking for a good starter at SG/SF and that is whom I am saying will go after those guys. Not the teams that drafted other, better players.

Say right now the Bobcats need a SG. So do the Hornets. I can see either one going after Chill if he was a FA after this season. Would we really offer him *that* much money to keep him as a 6th or 7th guy off the bench? I don't believe so. This also doesn't account for the fact Chill may WANT to leave to start somewhere. Its not every player who decides to sacrifice the best years of their career just to stick with the team that drafted them.

Ditto for Smoove. He's starting now, sure...but if he gets replaced by Marvin/Shellhead as the starting forward why would he stay here?

[Final_quest]

Quote:

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They would be leaving because they would get starter's minutes, starter's roles and starter's salaries on other teams. Why would they stay to be a backup? Especially if this team is still losing?

---

I'm not sure I agree with this perspective. We have 3-4 guys who have to prove they are worth the roles you have given them. A lot of guys post this same thought, but it doesn't make sense to me that we actually have 2 starting forwards on the bench.

Would you consider any of our forwards to be top 15 at their position? This season they may prove that we do in fact have a top 20-25 player at their position on the bench, but until that happens I'm not convinced that we are sitting a starter.

[GoDawgs21]

So your logic is that Deng and Iggy woudlnt leave their teams, but Chill and Smith would. What if Iggy and and Deng get replaced and move to the bench? You what if's are too funny.

So let me get this straight yesterday from you BK makes bad picks and you think he is bottom 10 GM in the league.

Then last night you havent been happier with a team in awhile.

Then today Chill and Smith will up and leave. Oh, and my personal favorite is you say you love certain GM's and what they have done.Tthen I show you that two of those GM's have built championship teams with 4 or more top tier f's and you ignore that.

[chillzatl]

well said. Some people want to focus on forward or guard or center. But most of our guys have very different games. Smooth and Marvin would be the closest to have similar games, but even they are pretty different in what they do well.

People talk about size, but there just aren't enough quality 7ft+ big men in the league for anyone to say how much of a problem that will be. Cleveland outsized us and our lineup did well against them.

[Sothron]

I don't know how to break this to you dude but throwing strawmen into an argument isn't going to fly with me. You are bringing up like four or five completely unrelated topics and trying to jumble them together to prove a point. Its not working.

I will treat each of your thoughts as the seperate topics they are.

1. BK makes bad picks and is bottom 10 GM in the NBA: absolutely. We got next to nothing from trading away two All-stars in SAR and Theo Ratliff. We got next to nothing trading Jason Terry who then helps lead the Mavs to the Finals. We get next to nothing for Al Harrington. We gave up a gold mine in Diaw and two first round picks to get JJ.

Notice a pattern there? If you trade with Knight you completely rape him. I'm talking pulling down his pants, bending him over your knee and have him repeat nursery rhymes while you just give it to him hardcore. Only a moron makes those deals. Hence BK not being a good GM. That basis ALONE makes him a bad GM. Getting almost nothing in trades is not good.

2. I already explained the "happier with the team" comment elsewhere. If you can sit there and tell me you have been happy with seven losing years and can't remember a time BEFORE THAT when the team was better I'll eat my damn hat.

3. I said that its possible one or both will leave. Yep. I've said that since we traded for JJ. And drafted Marvin. Because you don't fit square pegs in circles and hope it works out. We can't have 3-4 guys playing essentially the same role and expect them to STAY on the team. That's just common sense. If say two of these guys were 33 year old players then YES that can happen. We don't have a team using four forwards with half or them accepting diminished roles due to age. We have very, very young players who want to start. Big diff.

4. Please try and not toss various statements I make and try to come up with a point. Its insulting to my intelligence, no offense, and a waste of time. I think the Falcons need to start Clabo at guard. Is that going to come back to "haunt me"?

[Final_quest]

Quote:

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1. BK makes bad picks and is bottom 10 GM in the NBA: absolutely. We got next to nothing from trading away two All-stars in SAR and Theo Ratliff. We got next to nothing trading Jason Terry who then helps lead the Mavs to the Finals. We get next to nothing for Al Harrington. We gave up a gold mine in Diaw and two first round picks to get JJ.

Notice a pattern there? If you trade with Knight you completely rape him. I'm talking pulling down his pants, bending him over your knee and have him repeat nursery rhymes while you just give it to him hardcore. Only a moron makes those deals. Hence BK not being a good GM. That basis ALONE makes him a bad GM. Getting almost nothing in trades is not good.

---

You really maintain that BK makes "bad" picks? Then go on to say that we have several desirable players on our bench that other people would pay a lot of money for. It's funny that other teams would pay so much for our "bad" picks.

Also, are you really telling me that Portland got the better end of that SAR and Ratliff trade? Honestly. You are using that trade, of all trades, to prove BK gets poor value. IMO that was one of his best moves. We got rid of two burdensome contracts, and got one of the best athletes in the league, Smoove.

Re: Harrington. I think the ownership is source of that deal. He had too much limitation in what he could take back.

JT is a tricky one. I'm not sure it was such a terrible deal, but I don't want to split hairs about it.

Still to me bad picks are guys that get no PT, and have no value. Just because there could have been a better pick, doesn't mean he made a bad pick. Was Chris Bosh a bad pick because Toronto could have picked Wade? I don't think so. Darko was a bad pick.

[Sothron]

If you draft a decent starting guard and pass on an All-star or just below All-star talent...yes, I think that deserves criticism. Toronto, in your example, drafted a gifted big man over a gifted combo guard. We have yet to do that.

[GoDawgs21]

Clearly you are about as dumb as you come across in your flip flopping post.

Lets do a little connect the dots.

First many have stated that we are far better on defense without Al. I forever could not see this addition by subtraction. But I admit I was wrong. Allowing only 87 pts per game, and not having the ball goin in and not coming out is freeing up the offense. While some players put up good numbers they just dont fit certain teams.

So we trade SAR and Theo to Portland for Rasheed. This frees up mega cap room seeing how we were over the salary cap.

We then trade Sheed to Det. for a pick. That pick becomes Smith.

The cap room, + 2 picks. (Which really became 1 since last years was lottery protected), and Boris become JJ.

So lets talk about getting fleeced and bent over.

SAR+Theo+1pick+boris = Smith,JJ, and cap space for FA.

We get rid of two older guys, who each made one all-star game. That were making way to much money for their skill set. Are aging now and not being much of factors on their teams. Plus 1 pick that if we do well wont even be in the lottery. For two young possible cornerstones of the franchise. Yeh I take that.

Then your Al trade we move him to allow for your young players to play. So like you said we dont want lotto picks sitting on the bench. Also who could have left for nothing, he was an UFA. We get a pick back in this draft. So we move a rental that was in place until Smith and company got old enough, and lets face it was going to walk anyways, for our spot back in this draft. This negates the pick in the above scenrio, and you cant count losing Al since he was a FA.

So in essence BK gave up SAR+Theo+Boris=JJ,Smith.

Yeh I def. take that.

Let me know if you cant follow.

[GoDawgs21]

What All-star have we missed. You can say Paul will make it this year. If Marvin makes it this year then that is your Toronto scenario. Bosh didnt make it until his 3rd year last year, and Wade in his 2nd. But what other All-Star has BK missed. Name just one guy that has been in an all-star game we missed.

[Final_quest]

Actually the trade is more like this:

Theo, SAR, JT, Henderson, Diaw, #1 pick (this year's): for JJ and Josh Smith.

Got rid of a lot of fat: Theo, SAR, and Henderson.

Gave up some talent and a nice pick: JT and Diaw

Received a star player, prospect, and caproom: JJ and Smoove.

[terrynoonan]

Guys. We're 3-1! Enjoy it for a day. The country is back in intellectual hands and Rumsfeld is gone! There are all kinds of things to be happy about!

[GoDawgs21]

Thats about it FQ, I left out the Henderson trade since it didnt effect the Smoove deal, I was just looing at what SAR and Theo got us. Now Soth is going to say well we gave up JT. Yeh we also got rid of Hendu's max contract no team would take that without getting something, something being JT. If you dont move Henderson you can't get JJ in here either. So yes you have to give up good pieces to get good pieces. Its not NBA Live you cant trade Henderson for Shaq, no matter what any GM trading with Zeke in NY will tell you. You act like we were amazing with SAR and Theo. We didnt make the playoffs for the 3 years they were here. So if in the 3 years JJ and Smooth are togther this or next we make the playoffs id say thats a winning trade. Speaking of bending over and raping in a trade. The Hawks sent Pau Gasol a perinal all-star and cornerstone in Memphis (see them now tihout him in the lineup) for SAR a one time all-star. Geee, I wonder who pulled that off. Oh wait that Billy Knight guy.

In response to your post earlier, no im not happy wtih watching all teh losing, but I could see the team growing. I knew when BK came in it might be 3 or 4 years. You cant strip down a team with the contracts we had and rebuild over night. So I knew there was a plan. All I wanted to see was progress and that made me happy.

I want you to watch the Knicks rebuild. They like us were a vetern team witha bunch of has beens, that couldnt make the playoffs. We had 4 guys with almost max contracts and didnt make the playoffs for 3 years. Now we are well under the cap have a young core to build around. See how long it takes the next guy to rebuild NY after Zeke, and that will be even having MSG the mecca of bball to draw players to. Try getting a rebuilding job done in a city that has no true fans, or history. Id say getting this pointed in the right direction in 3 years is pretty f'n good job.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

LOL @ Sothron.

1) We trade SAR and Theo to get RAsheed Wallace . . who we trade to Detroit for all of those expiring contracts and a 1st round pick . . which we used to select JOSH SMITH . . and get $20 MILLION OFF THE BOOKS.

We trade JT to acquire Antoine Walker . . who we trade to Boston for a conditional pick . . which we used in a package deal to get JOE JOHNSON . . and we're only in position to get him, because of the deal to get SAR's and Theo's contracts off the books the previous year.

And Diaw? LMAOOOOOO . . you GOTS to be kidding me? LOL @ calling Diaw a "gold mine". More like a "fools gold" mine. The Suns used him perfectly last year by having him take advantage of lumbering centers and PFs who couldn't keep up with him. But the NBA is a league of adjustments. Now, teams are putting SF's and quicker PFs to guard Diaw on the defensive end . . and they're attacking him on the offensive end to get him in foul trouble because he can't guard the post.

2) No one has been happy with 7 losing seasons. But this team, from top to bottom, is as good of an assembled cast of characters since the 1999 season. The 2002 Hawks had a better starting lineup, with JT, Newble, SAR, Big Dog, and Ratliff. But overall, this year's Hawks are a better team.

3) There is a thing in this league called DEPTH. Marvin, we don't have to worry about for another 3 seasons. Smoove and Chill, for another 2 seasons. If the Hawks do turn this thing around before Smoove and Chill become RFA's in the summer of 2008, then there might be some demand for them. If not, the Hawks can very easily offer them something reasonable in the tune of 6 - 9 million, and keep both of those guys in a Hawks uniform through 2012. The logic you use makes sense, only if those guys are being heavily sought after. Look at the deal Tayshawn Prince got. That could very easily be the deal that Childress and/or Smoove get in 2 years. And because BK has gotten all of this money off the books, it's the type of deals that the Hawks could EASILY work and stay either right at the salary cap, or a little above it.

It's crazy. BK has drafted horribly, yet, you probalby think Smoove or Childress are going to get 10 million a year from somebody.

4) No need in responding to this, because while you do have intelligence, your intelligence is much like the federal government's . . . adequate, but incomplete.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Quote:

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Clearly you are about as dumb as you come across in your flip flopping post.

Lets do a little connect the dots.

First many have stated that we are far better on defense without Al. I forever could not see this addition by subtraction. But I admit I was wrong. Allowing only 87 pts per game, and not having the ball goin in and not coming out is freeing up the offense. While some players put up good numbers they just dont fit certain teams.

So we trade SAR and Theo to Portland for Rasheed. This frees up mega cap room seeing how we were over the salary cap.

We then trade Sheed to Det. for a pick. That pick becomes Smith.

The cap room, + 2 picks. (Which really became 1 since last years was lottery protected), and Boris become JJ.

So lets talk about getting fleeced and bent over.

SAR+Theo+1pick+boris = Smith,JJ, and cap space for FA.

We get rid of two older guys, who each made one all-star game. That were making way to much money for their skill set. Are aging now and not being much of factors on their teams. Plus 1 pick that if we do well wont even be in the lottery. For two young possible cornerstones of the franchise. Yeh I take that.

Then your Al trade we move him to allow for your young players to play. So like you said we dont want lotto picks sitting on the bench. Also who could have left for nothing, he was an UFA. We get a pick back in this draft. So we move a rental that was in place until Smith and company got old enough, and lets face it was going to walk anyways, for our spot back in this draft. This negates the pick in the above scenrio, and you cant count losing Al since he was a FA.

So in essence BK gave up SAR+Theo+Boris=JJ,Smith.

Yeh I def. take that.

Let me know if you cant follow.

---

Damn GoDawgs. I must've started my previous post right as you were finishing yours. Would've saved me a lot of typing . . LOL.

[Final_quest]

Quote:

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It's crazy. BK has drafted horribly, yet, you probalby think Smoove or Childress are going to get 10 million a year from somebody.

---

That's the point I've been trying to make. His position just doesn't add up.

Still, I'm mostly baffled by the SAR/Theo trade that he thinks we got jipped on.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Quote:

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Thats about it FQ, I left out the Henderson trade since it didnt effect the Smoove deal, I was just looing at what SAR and Theo got us. Now Soth is going to say well we gave up JT. Yeh we also got rid of Hendu's max contract no team would take that without getting something, something being JT. If you dont move Henderson you can't get JJ in here either. So yes you have to give up good pieces to get good pieces. Its not NBA Live you cant trade Henderson for Shaq, no matter what any GM trading with Zeke in NY will tell you. You act like we were amazing with SAR and Theo. We didnt make the playoffs for the 3 years they were here. So if in the 3 years JJ and Smooth are togther this or next we make the playoffs id say thats a winning trade. Speaking of bending over and raping in a trade. The Hawks sent Pau Gasol a perinal all-star and cornerstone in Memphis (see them now tihout him in the lineup) for SAR a one time all-star. Geee, I wonder who pulled that off.

Oh wait that Billy Knight guy.

In response to your post earlier, no im not happy wtih watching all teh losing, but I could see the team growing. I knew when BK came in it might be 3 or 4 years. You cant strip down a team with the contracts we had and rebuild over night. So I knew there was a plan. All I wanted to see was progress and that made me happy.

I want you to watch the Knicks rebuild. They like us were a vetern team witha bunch of has beens, that couldnt make the playoffs. We had 4 guys with almost max contracts and didnt make the playoffs for 3 years. Now we are well under the cap have a young core to build around. See how long it takes the next guy to rebuild NY after Zeke, and that will be even having MSG the mecca of bball to draw players to. Try getting a rebuilding job done in a city that has no true fans, or history. Id say getting this pointed in the right direction in 3 years is pretty f'n good job.

---

And Isaiah is now on record as saying that he will bench ANYONE to turn things around. Wonder how long it will take to see this starting lineup:

G - Robinson

G - Q-Rich . . who is playing well

F - Balkman

F - Lee ( yes, Lee over Frye right now )

F/C - Curry ( unless you start Frye at center )

Then bring all of those overpriced vets off the bench, and see if they can contribute that way. They might as well do that. They really have nothing to lose in doing so, because no one wants Crawford, Marbury or Francis.

[GoDawgs21]

Gee Sothy, guess it wasnt jsut me that saw your flawed logic. Hurts when all three of us unknowing, type the same information to disprove your idea of us getting nothing. Maybe we are on to something . Just honestly look at what we have just said, and say your arent more excited about this team then that of JT,BD,SAR, Theo and Ira. That team was going nowhere. You cant completely tear down a team and change gears without expecting 2 or 3 years. Call me the ultimate optimist. But I honestly think we woudl have turned a bit of a corner and maybe won 30 or 33 games last year had it not been for the tragic loss of JC. No I'm not talking bout on court presence. But if a close friend and coworker of yours dies suddenly right before work, how long would it take you to get over it. Seeing his locker everyday being in the same room. He was our clubhouse jokester. That had a huge impact on our 2-15 start, whcih in turn had a huge impact on our final record. People gloss over this and blame Woody, but how many guys can deal with the death of a teammate the week before tip-off.

[Sothron]

If three monkeys get together and throw poop at a passing visitor at a zoo, well, you get the point.

And just for the record, I can either play nice with you guys or I can stoop to your level and start taking potshots and flames. I guarantee you don't want to see that or have the site get bogged down with flames. That's the only warning you will get. Insulting my intelligence or calling me an idiot is needless personal attacks and its the first sign you've lost an argument.

Now let me get down to squashing your arguments like so much bugs:

1. We got raped by Portland. We gave up two All-star big men for NOTHING. We had absolutely no idea we were getting Smoove as a result so don't even *pretend* Knight knew that [censored] was going to happen. We should have gotten more than what we did. If any of you guys were posting at any Hawks site I know of at that time, which I might add I've never seen any of you before and as my sig says I've been talking Hawks for ten years now on the net, you would know how much outrage the fanbase had at how LITTLE WE GOT from that trade.

The value we gave up far exceeded the value we got back AT THAT TIME. Only bad general managers make that decision.

Example? Elgin Baylor. Yes, I know Donald Sterling was cheap for about thirty years. So what. That guy (Baylor) drafted a metric ton of wasted lottery picks. He now is praised for ripping off Krause for Brand, trading for Cassell and having some of that talent finally pay off and have Sterling pay to keep it. Big f'ing deal. That does NOT negate the MANY year of incompetence.

Ditto for Knight. Exact same situation. We get almost nothing for trading so many quality players, All-star big men for that matter, and we get Smoove and the ever popular "cap room" excuse. All of that nonsense about "Oh in 1993 we coulda done this and that lead to 1999 and oh yeah! that waiver of priest lauderdale opened up 300,000 to add for cap space" is complete garbage. Knight had no f'ing clue he was going to even have a chance at JJ or that JJ would be what he was when Knight made those trades.

He could and should have gotten more value in those trades.

2. I've said this before but I see I have to connect the dots for you guys. If a team has "D" level talent at one position and notices our team has "C/C+" level talent at that same position AND one or two of those players are free agents...hold on here....wait for it....they'll offer them enough money to START for them to replace their own "D" level talent.

Its really not that complicated. Deng, Iggy, who the hell else, are not going anywhere. Its the teams starting crap talent that's going to go after our young guys. And our young guys who are NOT starting may in fact, hold on here...wait for it...decide to go play somewhere else TO start.

Did that like blow your mind? I know its hard to grasp the concept guys in their young 20's might want to start at some point in their career and get PAID as starters.

If we are not starting Chill and Smoove by the team they can leave then there is (at least) a very good chance they leave. I really don't understand how that is such a hard concept to grasp. But I'll leave it at that without insulting people's intelligence.

I need to go eat dinner so take your time on the next essay.

[GoDawgs21]

1) You can't call a draft pick getting nothing. Say by soe fluke Ind. ends up in the lotto, and we somehow (i know this is a stretch) but the ping pong balls boucne right and we get the 1st pick and get Oden. would that be getting nothing for Al.

NO. Picks are a form of collateral. No you dont know exactly who you are goign to get, but if it appears to be a deep draft you can draft guys you want to build your team around.

Perfect example. Chicago gave up Curry for picks. So in your mind paxson got fleeced he got nothing tangible for him. What a dumb ass. Oh wait NY prob will have the most ping pong balls this year. So say the GM job you love the most gets into the playoffs this year and then gets the top pick ala Detriot several years ago for darko. So then a playoff team gets Oden. Thats not getting nothing thats called GM'ing. We got Smoove yes, but that was a deep draft and that gave us 2 top picks in a deep draft.

This goes to my other question you have failed to answer.

SO WHERE WERE WE GOING WITH SAR AND THEO?

We were a constant 40 win non-playoff team. Going nowhere with no future of getting younger and couldnt sign anyone with our cap room. So what did yu want for them? Its easy to play this guy and that guy, but what team is going to give up a major player for aging overpaid talent. yep, im sure we could have gotten jason kidd for sar and ray allen for theo. Cmon each was a one time all-star with blotted contracts. Nobody wants that. So BK sees we are in cap hell and have vetern players goin nowhere. So you need to get younger, how do you do that? You build your team how you want throught the draft. So getting cap space and 2 picks in a deep draft was smart. What if that pick turned out to be Dwight howard. yes he didnt know he was getting smoove, but he knew he was getting a high pick. that he could turn into a young version of what he wanted.

This draft is full of PG, so if we end up with say the 14th pick from Indianaand get a pg we can groom to take over after speedy, and he becomes a good pg i guess we got nthing for al too uh.

Your argument is what i take advantage of all day long looking for real estate deals. You see a plot of land as trees and nothing but a waste of earth. I see in three years a shopping center with a major anchor tenant, making my returns then. So you pass on that land and be content to make your 5% intrest on your money in a cd (keeping old guys staying at 40 win no playoff seasons), I'll spend the money(sar,theo, etc) for my return the land to fix up(picks), build the land up, and im left making a 10% IRR and smoking your cd. Thanks for playing the game.

[GoDawgs21]

Now onto your second question (you see unlike you I back stuff up wtih actual facts, you still havent answered a single question from my thread yesterday not one) and now i ask to name one all-star we missed and you havent. To have a debate and to acknowledge your views i need responses and facts. Not uh I like that GM, then I show you he did what BK is doing and you go another direction.

What you are discussing with the players as a D grade vs a C grade, does happen. This happens mostly to big guys cause there is so few. your flaw is that sg/sf is the most talented position in the nba. right now before i respsond anymore go through the league and name 2 starting g/f that chill is better then. teams over pay for major upgrades they dont pay big money to go from d to c. they pay to go from d to a like we did with JJ. So name 2 guys that start for teams that chill would be taken over for starters. the 2/3 is the deepest postion in the league. so teams might pay big for guys like redd, allen, etc. very few of these spots become available each year because it is so deep, and many teams lock these guys up. Just like mentioned Prince is probably a top 10 guy at that spot. he was named early on espn as a top 50 player in the league and he didnt get wooed by anyone. so if chill is supposed prince "like" who is gong to pay him big. But please name two guys chill starts over right now that teams would make a move for him and give him startin min and points.

You also say he didnt know about JJ, correct sir. But its hard to sign any free agents when you are over thea cap. No he didnt know he woudl get him, but he did know he had money to go get a top FA. Say in two years we are god willing able to sign Howard, did we know that no, but if we didnt getrid of the bad contracts, you woudlnt even be able to make a move when he is available.