Would Andre Miller be an "upgrade" over JT as PG?

[Guest]

Around the league forum.

[Guest]

With the team as assembled, Miller. But I'd rather trade GRob. After that, it depends on who you bring in...but if it's someone with any sort of athleticism and ball handling ability, I'd take JT and do more of a run and gun, uptempo game.

We'd still need a shooting guard with some handles and range either way.

[Guest Walter]

Hog will shoot more if not FAR more than anyone on his team (has done so every year of his career including shooting 60 and 100 FGA more than SAR and JT respectively despite playing 13 fewer games and 500 fewer minutes).

Hog will lead his team in TOs (last 3 years and 7 out of his 9 years overall). BTW, his

Hog is a bigger liability on defense than he is a threat on offense (highlighted by the Hawks improving by 11 PPG on defense and worsening but 4 PPG on offense WITHOUT Hog).

...

Of note, Diesel...Certainly Hog went away from what he knew. He went away from an offense that had no interior threat allowing him to shoot at will and not be concerned about anything other than a perimeter offense. Mason was GREAT in Miami the year before joining the Bucks but you put him next to Hog and it will never work because HOG HAS TO SHOOT ALL THE GD TIME! He can't defer to a post game. He can't defer to ANYBODY! That's why he's led his team in shots his whole career.

You will also notice that things did not change with different Pgs. Hog still took the most shots for the team (even if he shot at a far lower percentage) and still led the team in TOs. If anyone has the will, perhaps look up the games the Bucks had without Hog for the last many years. See their PPG differential and wins and loss total. I think we all suspect that even though Hog is paid WELL to be a difference maker for his team he is often a difference maker for the opposition.

W

[Diesel]

With what we have Miller is a Better fit.

Reason being is because YOU Know... KB Know...Maybe even Walter Knows that Miller is able to run an offense. With Miller, Grob wouldn't be such a problem...

Remember... With Cassell, Grob was a 21 ppg scorer, 46.7% shooter, and a 2.77 T.O. per game player.

With JT... Grob = 20 ppg scorer, 43% shooter, 3.58 topg...

You can't tell me that Grob has lost his level of consistency overnight and that PG and OFfense has nothing to do with it.

[Diesel]

A PG who can help BIg Dog be a 46-47% shooter with low turnovers.

or one who helps him to 42-43% shooting with High turnovers.

All that talk about the number of shots Big Dog takes is IRRELEVANT. Mainly because it has been proven that Big Dog can play within an offensive Scheme. It has been proven that even in the worst year with Milwaukee he was still a 46.7% shooter with 2.66 topg... I would take that Big Dog over what we see when JT is the PG anyday. And If you say otherwise, you're crazy.

Bottom line is do you think Miller is better than JT? My belief is YES he is. With Miller, I think that all of our other players would be better. With JT, everybody has to scurry to make up for his lack.

[Guest Walter]

In reply to:

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"A PG who can help BIg Dog...with low turnovers."

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Hog has led his team in TOs the last 3 seasons and 7 out of 9 years! Can you read!!!

There is one argument here though, for Hog. The team didn't have a true secondary ball-handler like every other NBA team including Ray Allen for Milwaulkee. However, this argument would mean more for Jason Terry than Hog (You wouldn't want that now would you?) and undoubtedly the effect wouldn't have meant Hog wasn't AGAIN his team's TO leader since he still was in Milwaulkee despite the presence of two All-star ball-handlers in Cassell and Allen.

Still, it is important given you are willing to blame JT rather than laud a perinnial all-star and exceptional ball handler in Ray Allen for helping cover up Hog's ball-handling ineptness, keeping his turnovers down (but still team leading). Hog's turnovers this year are the same as before the arrival of Ray Allen on Milwaulkee's team. Go figure. Even with Terrell Brandon in his prime and Allen, though, Hog led his team in TOs and averaged 3.5 TOPG. Maybe you want to insult Allen and Brandon for not keeping Hogs TOs down for him, but I think even you are above blaming two all-stars, on e a perinial all-star ball-handler for Hog's ineptness with the ball. No you leave that blame for JT. Yeah, if you can't blame two ball-handling all-stars why not try and blame a single player without a 2ndary ball-handler. I guess your just enough of a SOB to try it.

The question becomes is it JT's fault or does Hog not only need two All-stars with all-star handles to cut his TOs down to respectable albeit still often team leading amount, but does he need a specific two all-stars in the backcourt. Can Hog only succeed if he has two superior all-stars handling the ball for him. Even then he still led the team in TOs the last two years before becoming a Hawk.

Given JT got >8 APG since becoming the fulltime starting Pg at the second half of last season (without Hog), including exactly 8 APG this year as the starting Pg without Hog, JT is one of the league's better Pgs, and JT lacked any Sg much less one with an All-star handle, I go with Hog needing NOT ONLY two All-stars in the back court to compensate for his horrid handle, but two All-stars, one as good as Ray Allen and one better than Brandon, over it being JT's fault that Hog's TOPG returned to the level they were before the arrival of Ray Allen to the Bucks. Even when asked to be the third ball-handler behind not just any two All-star ball-handlers, Hog leads his teams in TOs. How awful do you have to be to do that from the Sf position in his position? AWFUL!

W

[Guest Walter]

...all we need is Ray Allen at the two and hope that JT plays Pg more like Cassell than Terrell Brandon in his prime to make Big Hog look better and the team still not win anything of importance.

Good plan, Diesel!

W

[Diesel]

Not only are you misleading... You straight up LIED.

2002-2003.... Big DOG T.O. 3.59

2001-2002.... Big Dog T.O 2.64

2000-2001.... Big Dog T.O. 2.88 (Sam Cassell led the bucks)

1999-2000.... Big Dog T.O. 2.75 (again S.C. led Bucks in TOs)

Now, Let's put it in perspective.....

2003-2002.... SAR T.O. 2.69

2002-2001.... SAR T.O. 3.25

2001-2000.... SAR T.O. 2.85.....IN Vancouver

1999-2000.... SAR T.O. 3.04.....In Vancouver

Look at the transition by SAR last year. He left Vancouver came to Atlanta and he averaged 3.25 topg. He had similar problems that Big Dog had? In fact, Big DOg's numbers look a little better than Reefs numbers coming in.

But you say... Big Dog has led his team (LIE) in T.O.'s... Come on Walter. DO you still LIE and Mislead to make your points? First off, he didn't commit Turnovers like he has here. I'd take those Team Leading Turnovers of 2.64 over 3.59 anyday Walter. Along with the 46-47% shooting and the 20/6.

[Diesel]

We need Miller who is a better PG than Cassell and send JT back to Playground so he figure out if he's a 2 or a 1... It's just like Marbury Said...

A PG Is a gift from God. You have to be born to PG. JT is not that. He gets assists but [censored], so do Kobe. JT can't manage an offense. That's part of our problem.

[Guest Walter]

For the 2000-20001 season Hog had 2.9 TOPG and tied for the lead on his team.

http://www.rmi.net/~doug/00-01/MilwaukeeBucks.html

I never said he led the team in 99-00, but regardless he led his team 7 out of 9 years.

Also, if SAR is SOOOOOOOOOO bad at TOs what does that say about Hog when on this team Hog averaged more than 1 more TOPG than SAR? Hmmm?

Yep. All we need is Ray Allen and to hope that JT is Cassell and not Brandon so that we can make Hog look better and still not win anything of importance.

W

W

[Diesel]

Instead of ROUNDING UP Doug's Numbers?

Cassell led his team in Turnovers for BOTH YEARS that I corrected you on.

[Guest Walter]

Your argument is now a ridiculous one.

As far as going to NBA.com for my stats. I often do but you yourself have used Doug's stat page. I guess it only is appropriate when it serves you.

Maybe, just maybe Cassell will one day again manage to put up JT's APG numbers with (7) or without (8 to >8 APG) Hog. He hasn't met JT's numbers with Hog in the last two years or without him as the full-tiime Pg starter the last three. Sigh, we can only hope Cassell can one day again be the Pg JT already is.

[jjjohns3]

What we have won't be here next yr.

~peace