There is too much criticism on Chillz.

[atlien]

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What's the point of being a fan if you can't even be excited when your own players show improvement? Seriously.

That's the issue. And that's why you come off retarded to me. You spend 3/4 of your day talking about the Hawks (albeit through the medium of an internet message board), and you can't even be excited when an important player on the team shows much improvement (only b/c youve made it your mission not to like said player).

Explain to me how that makes sense. It seems pitiful to me.

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For example, I really didnt like the Shelden pick, and Ive never really liked him as a player, but I am very happy with the way he is rebounding, playing tough, being more aggressive, and getting to the line.

I hope he improves even more.

I have no reason not to like him. He's on my favorite team.

[TexasPete]

ATLien, he isn't really a Hawks fan. He's a fan of his own opinions and this site gives him his vehicle.

Can you imagine a real fan actually being pissed about a young player getting better? Because it might ruin his opinion, which was off the wall in the first place?

He sits at home and prays that Marvin sucks so he can come on here and be....AGENDAMAN.

That dude in the cape is classic.

[Plainview1981]

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I'd like to see him list one team the last 15-20 years that won a title without a second option.

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What's your definition of second option. Scorer? Team player? Rebounder?

What kind of stat line is required to call someone a legitimate 2nd option?

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Somebody that can score in a pretty high number and do so creating for themselves. I'd say Pippen is a classic example.

Chillz can't create his own shot.... Marvin might possibly be able to do it, but he hasn't clearly proven he can do it night in and night out. Smoove turns the ball over when he tries to create his own shot... ZaZa is more of a junk scorer aswell.

The hawks don't have that guy right now.

[Plainview1981]

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One of the greatest teams assembled was the Portland trailblazers that had more depth than any other team since the inception of the draft. They were so good that JO rode the bench and was eventually traded.

That team never made it to the finals...

Do you know why??

No definite second option.

Your Eutopia is crushed by reality. Without a definitive 2nd option, this team goes to pot because nobody knows to step up so everybody wants to step up. So we see a lot of one on one ball and ballhoggery... NO second option. Next thing you know Smoove is pissed off at Lue because Lue's not passing him the ball!

You got a lot to learn...

You're now the Green teabag!

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It's the same reason LA didn't win a title until Nick and Eddie Jones was traded. LA had 3 second options in Nick, Kobe and Eddie... It took getting rid of 2 of them to define Kobe as the true second option.

[Diesel]

Be excited..

What's the point in being excited when he hasn't really done anything.

Let me help you. Go back through the stacks, I said nothing about Marvin yeah or nay... It was the Marvin sack huggers who continually prompted me to say something good about Marvin... FOR WHAT??

Jerry The Loser " OH, I long for the day when Diesel will say something positive about Marvin".

I had made no mention of Marvin.

My point is if you want to be excited for Marvin, Go ahead, but I have a different standard for Marvin than Lamar Odom like.

We may disagree on the standard for being excited about Marvin, but let's established Some standard. For the last 2 years, everybody was fully aware of my standard... So I don't understand why people want me to be a part of the Marvin parade when In my eyes, he hasn't done anything.

Since you want to talk about being a Hawk fan there Atliens and liking players because you are a fan...

I found this:

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I actually like our roster too,

minus Shelly

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Joe, Marvin, Smoove, Chill, Horford, Law, and others are all likable guys that I legitimately would want to see do well even if not on ATL.

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Now I'm sure you can find reason after reason that you don't like Shelly... Even in the midst of his rookie of the month April going into the offseason and a strong Summer league, you could still muster up an "I don't like Shelly".

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What's the point of being a fan if you can't even be excited when your own players show improvement? Seriously.

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Well, thanks for being a Hypocrite...

Click.

[jerrywest]

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I'd like to see him list one team the last 15-20 years that won a title without a second option.

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What's your definition of second option. Scorer? Team player? Rebounder?

What kind of stat line is required to call someone a legitimate 2nd option?

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Somebody that can score in a pretty high number and do so creating for themselves. I'd say Pippen is a classic example.

Chillz can't create his own shot.... Marvin might possibly be able to do it, but he hasn't clearly proven he can do it night in and night out. Smoove turns the ball over when he tries to create his own shot... ZaZa is more of a junk scorer aswell.

The hawks don't have that guy right now.

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So, your definition is "someone who can create his own shot and score at a high number".

Do you have a number in mind?

Should they demand double team?

Both inside and outside scorer?

Please make sure your definition covers all champion teams 2nd highest scorer.

Diesel isn't answering.

[Diesel]

I think the answer is much more simplier than it's made to be...

Somebody who can step up and provide scoring consistently when the primary scorer can't. Moreover, this person has to be team designated. Meaning that the team has to automatically know that when Joe is off, this is the goto guy!

Is that defined enough for you??

It's funny to me that you're really trying to argue Teabag's stupidity. The statement of not needing a second scorer is about the stupidest thing that anyone who has watched basketball could say. Let me say it like this, Teams without second scorers rarely win championships. It's only be 2 cases in the last 30 something years.

[jerrywest]

You had 3 requirements

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1. Somebody who can step up and provide scoring consistently when the primary scorer can't.

2. this person has to be team designated.

3. Meaning that the team has to automatically know that when Joe is off, this is the goto guy!

Teams without second scorers rarely win championships. It's only be 2 cases in the last 30 something years.

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2 more questions:

You don't want to use assists/blocks/rebounds/leadership etc. as a second option's grading criteria, right?

Do you have a scoring average in mind?

[Plainview1981]

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I'd like to see him list one team the last 15-20 years that won a title without a second option.

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What's your definition of second option. Scorer? Team player? Rebounder?

What kind of stat line is required to call someone a legitimate 2nd option?

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Somebody that can score in a pretty high number and do so creating for themselves. I'd say Pippen is a classic example.

Chillz can't create his own shot.... Marvin might possibly be able to do it, but he hasn't clearly proven he can do it night in and night out. Smoove turns the ball over when he tries to create his own shot... ZaZa is more of a junk scorer aswell.

The hawks don't have that guy right now.

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So, your definition is "someone who can create his own shot and score at a high number".

Do you have a number in mind?

Should they demand double team?

Both inside and outside scorer?

Please make sure your definition covers all champion teams 2nd highest scorer.

Diesel isn't answering.

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When you like at guys like Pippen, Kobe, Drexler, Robinson you're talking about a guy that gets 16-25PPG and can also draw lots of attention from the defense.

The big exception is Philly when they got to the finals. The two biggest keys for Detroit is Billups and Rasheed Wallace. Sheed is more or less a 15PPG scorer and had the Hawks not traded him to Detroit, they wouldn't have a ring right now.

[Diesel]

Not really.

Basketball is about scoring more points than the other team, I know that those other things are factors, however, that's not what makes you a second option. Deke put up 14 rpg one year... He was not a second option.

When offenses stall, you need a player that the team recognizes that can step up and score!

[TexasPete]

Note to D-BAG: Basketball is a team game ideally. You don't need to go down your 1,2,3 list of scorers. If you have a balanced attack your harder to defend. Now, put down your Dime Magazine because your making yourself look ignorant again.

The Hawks can get by because they have a ton of options. One night Smoove will go for 25, one night Chill will get off, another Marv, sometimes Z. It will vary all year. You don't need a 2nd option. You need your TEAM to step up.

I love your logic on Marvin. You can never love a player drafted at 2 who isn't a mega star. Classic stuff.

Do you make stuff up as you go or do you sit around thinking of this stuff? Seriously, you come off as a total tool.

[jerrywest]

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Not really.

Basketball is about scoring more points than the other team, I know that those other things are factors, however, that's not what makes you a second option. Deke put up 14 rpg one year... He was not a second option.

When offenses stall, you need a player that the team recognizes that can step up and score!

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Great. So lets keep everything other than pure scoring out of the equation.

Do you have a number? Hotlanta zeroed in on 16-25 ppg.

[atlien]

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Be excited..

What's the point in being excited when he hasn't really done anything.

Let me help you. Go back through the stacks, I said nothing about Marvin yeah or nay... It was the Marvin sack huggers who continually prompted me to say something good about Marvin... FOR WHAT??

Jerry The Loser " OH, I long for the day when Diesel will say something positive about Marvin".

I had made no mention of Marvin.

My point is if you want to be excited for Marvin, Go ahead, but I have a different standard for Marvin than Lamar Odom like.

We may disagree on the standard for being excited about Marvin, but let's established Some standard. For the last 2 years, everybody was fully aware of my standard... So I don't understand why people want me to be a part of the Marvin parade when In my eyes, he hasn't done anything.

Since you want to talk about being a Hawk fan there Atliens and liking players because you are a fan...

I found this:

Quote:

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I actually like our roster too,

minus Shelly

.

Joe, Marvin, Smoove, Chill, Horford, Law, and others are all likable guys that I legitimately would want to see do well even if not on ATL.

---

Now I'm sure you can find reason after reason that you don't like Shelly... Even in the midst of his rookie of the month April going into the offseason and a strong Summer league, you could still muster up an "I don't like Shelly".

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What's the point of being a fan if you can't even be excited when your own players show improvement? Seriously.

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Well, thanks for being a Hypocrite...

Click.

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LOL!

You just made my day, my man.

A) I dont really care what you think about Marvin, I just think it's sad you can't get excited about a player's improvement. You continually have hated on him, which is whatever, but it is clear he is better this year. My standard of him is not linked to ANY other player. It's based on his own improvement. That's it.

b) I said above:

"For example, I really didnt like the Shelden pick, and Ive never really liked him as a player, but I am very happy with the way he is rebounding, playing tough, being more aggressive, and getting to the line."

I basically admitted to what you called me a hypocrit for and then said that I liked what I was seeing.

I dont care what you say, Shelden looked really bad last year and he didnt look very good in the preseason. I have never really liked him (which I admitted to). But, I also said I liked what I'm seeing from him this year, and I will continue to like him/root for him, while he's on our team. I doubt I would like him at all if he were traded.

I guess I'm just the bigger man.

Yay for internet wars!!!

[Plainview1981]

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Not really.

Basketball is about scoring more points than the other team, I know that those other things are factors, however, that's not what makes you a second option. Deke put up 14 rpg one year... He was not a second option.

When offenses stall, you need a player that the team recognizes that can step up and score!

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Great. So lets keep everything other than pure scoring out of the equation.

Do you have a number? Hotlanta zeroed in on 16-25 ppg.

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The Pistons are the exception as far as winning a title goes. That's what, one team in the last 20+ years atleast?

Chances are very slim.

[TexasPete]

How about Magic, Kareem, Worthy, Cooper, Byron Scott? How about Bird, McHale, Parrish, DJ, Ainge? How about Thomas, Dumars, Dantley, Laimbeer, Microwave, Rodman?

There are a bunch of hall of famers and great players in that bunch above. Now, what you don't get Hot, is that when guys play together it raises the profile of ALL of them. Just like with the Pistons now. When your 5 doesn't care who scores or who is 2nd option, it just works out better for the TEAM.

Your living in the one on one element of todays game. Bad idea.

Funny, D-Bag rips Woody for us going one on one...and then in the next thread says we need a defined 2nd option...which is the essence of the one on one mindset.

Nobody will ever accuse D-Bag of having a clue.

[AHF]

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Not really.

Basketball is about scoring more points than the other team, I know that those other things are factors, however, that's not what makes you a second option. Deke put up 14 rpg one year... He was not a second option.

When offenses stall, you need a player that the team recognizes that can step up and score!

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Great. So lets keep everything other than pure scoring out of the equation.

Do you have a number? Hotlanta zeroed in on 16-25 ppg.

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The Pistons are the exception as far as winning a title goes. That's what, one team in the last 20+ years atleast?

Chances are very slim.

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Arguably, the Pistons didn't have a clear #1 option on offense except in the clutch when Billups was the guy. On any given night it could be Sheed, Billups or Hamilton and on occassion it could be Prince. A lot of balance on that squad that you usually don't see on a championship team.

[Plainview1981]

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Not really.

Basketball is about scoring more points than the other team, I know that those other things are factors, however, that's not what makes you a second option. Deke put up 14 rpg one year... He was not a second option.

When offenses stall, you need a player that the team recognizes that can step up and score!

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Great. So lets keep everything other than pure scoring out of the equation.

Do you have a number? Hotlanta zeroed in on 16-25 ppg.

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The Pistons are the exception as far as winning a title goes. That's what, one team in the last 20+ years atleast?

Chances are very slim.

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Arguably, the Pistons didn't have a clear #1 option on offense except in the clutch when Billups was the guy. On any given night it could be Sheed, Billups or Hamilton and on occassion it could be Prince. A lot of balance on that squad that you usually don't see on a championship team.

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They're an exception. Even then you have 3 or 4 guys that can create their own shot. Players like Josh Smith, Childress, Shelden Williams and ZaZa, can't do that. It remains to be seen of Law, Holford, or Marvin Williams can develop into that kind of player.

[AHF]

I would say it is still too early to say that Josh Smith can't develop into that kind of player as well. He is still very young and has grown offensively every year.

[jerrywest]

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Not really.

Basketball is about scoring more points than the other team, I know that those other things are factors, however, that's not what makes you a second option. Deke put up 14 rpg one year... He was not a second option.

When offenses stall, you need a player that the team recognizes that can step up and score!

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Great. So lets keep everything other than pure scoring out of the equation.

Do you have a number? Hotlanta zeroed in on 16-25 ppg.

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Diesel, what should be the minimum scoring average of a championship team's 2nd scorer?

[Plainview1981]

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How about Magic, Kareem, Worthy, Cooper, Byron Scott? How about Bird, McHale, Parrish, DJ, Ainge? How about Thomas, Dumars, Dantley, Laimbeer, Microwave, Rodman?

There are a bunch of hall of famers and great players in that bunch above. Now, what you don't get Hot, is that when guys play together it raises the profile of ALL of them. Just like with the Pistons now. When your 5 doesn't care who scores or who is 2nd option, it just works out better for the TEAM.

Your living in the one on one element of todays game. Bad idea.

Funny, D-Bag rips Woody for us going one on one...and then in the next thread says we need a defined 2nd option...which is the essence of the one on one mindset.

Nobody will ever accuse D-Bag of having a clue.

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You keep bringing up the Pistons, but they're not the rule. They're the exception.

Jordan/Pippen Hakeem/Clyde Shaq/Kobe Duncan/Robinson Duncan/Mano

All these duo's are more of proven formula than the Pistons one title.

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How about Magic, Kareem, Worthy, Cooper, Byron Scott? How about Bird, McHale, Parrish, DJ, Ainge? How about Thomas, Dumars, Dantley, Laimbeer, Microwave, Rodman?

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Those teams have that second 16-25PPG scorer that I listed. What is your point? Good teams are going to play close games most every night... That means in the 4th you need two guys that can be counted on to bring you on home.

Are you saying the Bulls were not a team? They were a team that had two guys you can count on most every night. But they still had team players like Ron Harper, Dennis Rodman and Toni Kukoc.

The fact that the Hawks have Tyronne "The Closer" Lue in the game because nobody else other than JJ can create his own shot says something. Without Lue playing the way he did in Dallas the Hawks would have lost.

Tyronne Lue the teams on other shot creater didn't have it in Detroit and so the team lost the game in the 4th.