Game 26: Atlanta VS Washington

[TheNorthCydeRises]

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Lets put it this way, Do you think that Marvin deserves more than 6 or 7 shots in the 1st half or 12 for the game?

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He deserves more shots. And he'll get them as soon as he's able to create his own jumper and knock the shot down consistently. But I don't want JJ passing up shots that he normally make either.

If Marvin can prove that he can be a main scoring option WITHOUT JJ on the floor wth him, you'll see his shot attempts rise. And when he's able to do that, you'll also see JJ's minutes decrease.

Marvin is a very good complimentary player to JJ. Not the other way around.

[Peoriabird]

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Lets put it this way, Do you think that Marvin deserves more than 6 or 7 shots in the 1st half or 12 for the game?

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He deserves more shots. And he'll get them as soon as he's able to create his own jumper and knock the shot down consistently. But I don't want JJ passing up shots that he normally make either.

If Marvin can prove that he can be a main scoring option WITHOUT JJ on the floor wth him, you'll see his shot attempts rise. And when he's able to do that, you'll also see JJ's minutes decrease.

Marvin is a very good complimentary player to JJ. Not the other way around.

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Does Horford deserve more shot?

[TexasPete]

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Lets put it this way, Do you think that Marvin deserves more than 6 or 7 shots in the 1st half or 12 for the game?

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He deserves more shots. And he'll get them as soon as he's able to create his own jumper and knock the shot down consistently. But I don't want JJ passing up shots that he normally make either.

If Marvin can prove that he can be a main scoring option WITHOUT JJ on the floor wth him, you'll see his shot attempts rise. And when he's able to do that, you'll also see JJ's minutes decrease.

Marvin is a very good complimentary player to JJ. Not the other way around.

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So, are you saying Marvin doesn't knock down the shots consistently? Maybe we are watching a different player. Just FYI, because JJ and Marvin are huge to this team, Marvin will not have many times when he's on the floor WITHOUT JJ. And the fact that Marvin takes the ball to the hole, and now often either finishes, gets fouled, or both, I wouldnt be too upset if he got more touches. He rarely takes more than 10-12 shots in a game and still puts up 17ppg...and he has hit 20+ 5 of 6 games and 4 straight.

We all know JJ is the man on this team. But, and a big BUT, if he is off, why not let Smoove, Horf, Marvin, etc. pick up some slack? JJ doesn't need to be on his game now all the time for us to win. It seems that every night we have guys stepping up and that means were less reliant on JJ having a big night. And that is great for this basketball team.

[exodus]

Zaza sucks. I was so pissed watching him. Woody played him waaayyyy too long. The 16 minutes he was in the game seemed like an eternity to me. Why not put shelden in? Shelden has had some good games, certainly enough to be able to get into the game tonight.

AJ has been huge us lately. tonight his shot was way off and yet we still won.

JJ definitely looks like he is starting to come back. The next few days will give him and everyone else a chance to rest. The main guys have been playing a lot of minutes.

Smith had a couple of those "nononono...YES!" shots tonight.

LOL at Mario with the clutch free throws. Horford was laughing for the next 5 minutes after Mario made those.

Of course it goes without saying that Marvins 22 points had no effect on the game at all.

Yes that was sarcasm.

[Peoriabird]

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Of course it goes without saying that Marvins 22 points had no effect on the game at all.

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They were assisted jump shots so they definitely don't count!

[TexasPete]

I justed posted the same thing in another thread. Shelden gives us 10X more of what we need than Z. Z is a train wreck and plays no defense at all.

I get the feeling Z's basketball IQ is about negative.

[TexasPete]

Marvin is really coming on strong. As the founding member of the sackrider club, it gives me great pleasure to see him playing this kind of ball.

The kid is still so young and has a great basketball IQ and gives it all on defense. He is a great complement to Smoove as a forward tandem. Marvin draws so many fouls and it is so critical to have a guy that knocks down every open look he gets.

The best of Marvin is yet to come. And the same goes for Horford and Smoove. We really need a first rate PG in here and we would rock the East.

[DavidSomerset]

Great to see we pulled out a win ON THE ROAD against one of the better teams in the East.

We are just playing AWESOME right now!

[exodus]

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Great to see we pulled out a win ON THE ROAD against one of the better teams in the East.

We are just playing AWESOME right now!

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Actually they really aren't playing that great but they are still winning. That is what makes me think that this run, unlike past winning streaks, is legit. It still doesnt look like they are really clicking although they are getting better.

[DavidSomerset]

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Great to see we pulled out a win ON THE ROAD against one of the better teams in the East.

We are just playing AWESOME right now!

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Actually they really aren't playing that great but they are still winning. That is what makes me think that this run, unlike past winning streaks, is legit. It still doesnt look like they are really clicking although they are getting better.

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That is kind of what I meant...This string of wins is not luck...We have had to grind them out...Those are wins we could not get before.

We have that will to win and killer instinct that this team hasn't had in forever.

[Plainview1981]

I would have put Law on Young late in the game though. Childress simply didn't have the foot speed to keep up with him on defense.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

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So, are you saying Marvin doesn't knock down the shots consistently? Maybe we are watching a different player. Just FYI, because JJ and Marvin are huge to this team, Marvin will not have many times when he's on the floor WITHOUT JJ. And the fact that Marvin takes the ball to the hole, and now often either finishes, gets fouled, or both, I wouldnt be too upset if he got more touches. He rarely takes more than 10-12 shots in a game and still puts up 17ppg...and he has hit 20+ 5 of 6 games and 4 straight.

We all know JJ is the man on this team. But, and a big BUT, if he is off, why not let Smoove, Horf, Marvin, etc. pick up some slack? JJ doesn't need to be on his game now all the time for us to win. It seems that every night we have guys stepping up and that means were less reliant on JJ having a big night. And that is great for this basketball team.

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I love the way Marvn is playing. The "shot" that I'm talking about, is a jumper that he creates for himself. Over 80% of Marvin's jumpers are via assists. There's nothing wrong with that, seeing how high a percentage he shoots. To me, he's playing like a Glen Rice right now.

But there's a difference in a Glen Rice, and a Mitch Richmond. Glen was a great shooter, who was better at catching and shooting, than creating for himself. Mitch could catch and shoot, but was a great creator of his own jumper as well.

This is how I see Marvin and JJ. I think Marvin can be better than Rice though, because he can get to the line, as well as hit the jumper as a high percentage. But JJ is the creator.

When Marvin becomes a better creator, is when you'll really see this guy explode. If he adds a great post move, or a nice dribble pull-up to his offensive game, he's going to be almost impossible to hold.

But right now, he doesn't have that. And because he doesn't have that, he has to play alongside a guy like JJ that can either draw all the attention, or be able to get Marvin the ball in the right spots.

It's a good reason why JJ has to play 40+ minutes a night. Because we don't have that 2nd creator on this team that can keep the offense going when he's out the game. If we're playing D, we can score and survive without JJ on the floor. But most of the time, we struggle offensively when JJ sits. LOL . . . then Woody panics, and has to get him right back in the game.

JJ played, what, 44 or so minutes tonight? I think Marvin was on the floor when JJ was out. What did the Hawks do?

[Diesel]

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This is how I see Marvin and JJ. I think Marvin can be better than Rice though, because he can get to the line, as well as hit the jumper as a high percentage. But JJ is the creator.

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I agree with your statement that most of Marvin's points were on assisted shots. I can't believe people would argue against that.

However, Marvin being better than Rice... Hold on.

The Rice that played for the Hornets/Heat was a several time allstar and team leader. That guy could kill a defense on his own. He had a three point shot and a post up game (when needed).

The Rice that played in LA was a sorry Bum. He just sat there and waited on somebody to kick the ball out to him. When they did, he could hit the open shot. I never understood why they traded Jones for that Rice because it was obvious that Jones was a hellavu defender and a guy who could create for himself as well as hit the open shot.

However, Marvin isn't close to Charlotte/Miami's Rice. That guy was the franchise...

When Miami had Rice and Smitty...and Kevin Loughery was the coach, they were fun to watch. That team had many of my favorites:

Grant Long, Bimbo Coles, Brian Shaw, The Syracuse Psycho Rony Seikaly, Mr. Instant offense Willie Burton... AND the Mistake Baby Jordan Harold Miner!!

[thesheedera]

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This string of wins is not luck...We have had to grind them out...Those are wins we could not get before.

We have that will to win and killer instinct that this team hasn't had in forever.

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Amen. We're playing stretches of really great basketball but we still have the lapses of pretty bad basketball, but we're racking up some W's that this team NEVER would have gotten the last three years.

We look like the more confident team at the end of these close ones.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

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I agree with your statement that most of Marvin's points were on assisted shots. I can't believe people would argue against that.

However, Marvin being better than Rice... Hold on.

The Rice that played for the Hornets/Heat was a several time allstar and team leader. That guy could kill a defense on his own. He had a three point shot and a post up game (when needed).

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Marvin and Rice are progressing at almost the exact same rate. Rice's year 1 and year 2 numbers, are pretty similar to Marvin's year 2 and current year 3 numbers. And Marvin shoots a higher percentage from the field. And Marvin right now is already better at getting to the line.

The fatal mistake that you keep making about Marvin, is that you truly think that he can't add more things to his game as a player.

Last year, his major problem was finishing on the inside and getting his shot blocked. That's not even close to being an issue this year. His defense last year was suspect. This year, he's solid defensively. Last year, he wasn't nearly aggressive enough. This year, that's less and less of an issue and it's making him a better player.

There is a distinct pattern developing with this kid that you either fail to see, or don't want to admit to seeing.

You got this "Tim Thomas" image of Marvin in your mind, that you can't get rid of. If Marvin was Denzel in the movie "Training Day", he'd tell you "TIM THOMAS . . . AINT'GOT S**T ON ME!!"

Rice, while a tremendous 3 point shooter in college, didn't exactly come into the NBA bombing away from 3. He barely took over 2 threes a game in his 2nd year. It wasn't until year 3, that Rice really started to become a prolific shooter from both 2 and 3-point range. And he didn't make an all-star team until his 6th or 7th year in the league, even though he was starting to become really good during his 3rd year.

So while Marvin is becoming the master of the 18 - 22 foot jumpshot, don't think for one minute that either his long range shooting, or his post game, will become the next focus for him. The guy's work ethic should never come into question anymore. He'll add one or both of those elements to his game, within the next 2 years.

The best thing that can happen to him this year, is that we make the playoffs, and he gets recognized as being a key contributor. That will motivate him to become even better as a player, much like it did T-Mac and JJ when they were complimentary players.

[thesheedera]

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Marvin and Rice are progressing at almost the exact same rate. Rice's year 1 and year 2 numbers, are pretty similar to Marvin's year 2 and current year 3 numbers. And Marvin shoots a higher percentage from the field. And Marvin right now is already better at getting to the line.

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And I know this point won't be popular with Diesel, but Glen did play 4 years of college ball, so his year 1 and 2 NBA numbers were years 5 and 6 out of highschool, while Marvin's 2nd and 3rd year NBA numbers are years 3 and 4 out of highschool.

I'm not claiming one way of looking at it is more accurate than the other, but I think you have to consider both ways when making comparisons between players. Rice would be an excellent player for Marvin to mimmick.

[exodus]

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And I know this point won't be popular with Diesel, but Glen did play 4 years of college ball

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Correct, but of course that won't matter to Diesel. Just like it doesn't matter than Marvin has scored over 20 in 5 out of the last 6 games.

[TexasPete]

Marvin is heading to a place beyond Glen Rice and it won't be that close. Marvin plays defense now but his defense will get better. His overall game continue's to progress nicely.

The bottom line is that there is no reason to even defend Marvin. Anybody with a pair of eyes can see what he's doing and what he means to the team.

I'm over the CP3 crap because it's stupid to keep re-hashing something that can't be done over. And the simple truth is that Marvin is becoming a helluva NBA player in his own right. If Marvin hadnt been in the draft with the two PGs then EVERYBODY would be thrilled with the kid.

There's pretty much one guy left on this site that has any issue with Marvin. And his opinion is no longer relevant on the topic. He has zero credibility to discuss the issue anymore because of some weird agenda.

In the meantime, Marvin and the Hawks are pretty solid at the moment. And that is progress that a real Hawks fan can appreciate after 8 years of hell.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

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Marvin draws so many fouls and it is so critical to have a guy that knocks down every open look he gets.

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I'll back this statement up.

This is how good Marvin is at drawing fouls. Smoove gets to the foul line so much, that I thought Smoove easily gets to the line more than Marvin. And the raw numbers indicate that.

But this is why 82games.com is such a cool site, especially when you know what you're looking at and what to look for.

They have a stat on there called Draw Foul %. It basically adds the number of shooting fouls a player draws, to the number of field goal attempts you take. Then you divide that total number by the amount of shooting fouls you draw. It makes up for the fact that shot attempts aren't counted when you get fouled, but miss the shot.

So say like Marvin last night. He only took 12 shots. But he drew a shooting foul I think 4 times. So that's 12 + 4 = 16 scoring chances. 4 drawn shooting fouls / 16 scoring chances = 25% draw foul %.

25% is EXCELLENT.

How do I know that?

Because the current "King of drawing a foul" ( even questionable fouls ) Dwyane Wade, has a draw foul % number over 21%.

When I saw that, I wanted to see how the other players in the league stacked up against D-Wade. I checked most of the top wing players, some of the Hawks, and guys who are known for gettng to the line.

JJ was a little under 9%, which isn't surprising. The closest guy to D-Wade that I saw, was Corey Maggette, who had a number just under 20%.

Smoove? Just under 19%

Marvin? A little over 19%

From the guys I checked, Marvin was #3 in drawing a foul. Better at it than Kobe, Lebron, T-Mac, Boozer, Melo, and just about every other SF or hybrid PF in the league. Anything over 15%, is good in my opinion.

The difference between a guy like Maggette and a guy like Marvin, is that Marvin is a much better jumpshooter, while Corey is more aggressive in going to the hole. I don't think Maggette gets any better than what he is right now, because of his jumpshooting.

And the difference in Marvin and a Melo, is that Melo has an array of offesive moves, including a deep perimeter game, that he can go to that Marvin doesn't have yet.

So if Marvin adds another element to his game, like a go-to move in the post, and gets a little more assertive as a player, he could really become a top offensive player in a few years.

And if he continues to limit the number of bad outside shots he takes, Smoove could be the forward equivalent of D-Wade, with a draw foul % of over 20%.

Definitely a nice compliment to each other.

[GMyrberg]

Great and lucid comments regarding Marvin's progress. There's just so many signs that he's filling in the missing parts in his game while refining the parts that come naturally to him. Fun to watch.

I thought the Washington win was full of good things. The NBA's tough and you have to win in different ways, sometimes depending on a big fourth quarter from your superstar, sometimes not. I really think that the PG situation will sort itself out (and AJ's generally been great for the last few games), along with some other issues, once the team's health improves. Good time to have some days off.

What can you say about Zaza that hasn't already been said?