I blame Woody

Nicholasp27 · February 24, 2008

what was he doing? it was close game after 1 quarter and he puts ALL subs in together in the 2nd to let them get to double digit lead on us...slim and j-rich backcourt doesn't work

HawkNJersey · February 24, 2008

Thats exactly what I said in the Chatroom.

yardbird · February 24, 2008

Two games ago, Woody was blamed for not playing Salim, Solo and others. Now he's blamed cause he did?

The Hawks put up a valiant effort in one of the most difficult places to win in the league (a lot of Hawks coaches have been unsuccessful there since 1993). We've got a short roster, and we're playing through injuries on the second game of a back to back against a solid team. Most folks expected a blowout going in, and we had a chance to pull it out at the end, including some missed layups that would have made things really interesting had they gone in.

Every loss can't be Woody's fault and every win shouldn't credit only the players. Let's try to be competitive against the world champions tomorrow, get heathier and try to turn things around at home.

Admin · February 24, 2008

Great post, and I would like to add something the Jazz announcers made a reference too last night which is something that too many people here complain about with Woody.

They said that Sloan has a set rotation with set minutes and he sticks to that and although he has gotten criticism from around the league for being too rigid, the majority of his players say that they really like it because it allows them to play as hard as possible knowing that rest is coming at a certain time.

That is exactly the same thing that Woody does with his rotation, at least when we are healthy, and he gets flamed for it. If one of the best coaches in NBA history does it and gets praised for it by his players why does Woody take so much heat for it?

If we had a PG last night that could have kept the team playing under control during those 2nd and 3rd quarter runs that the Jazz went on instead of having the whole 2nd unit unravel (against their 2nd unit I might add) then last nights game could have easily been a huge W for us. I'm not sure that Acie is that guy at this point, but he might be. Whether he is or isn't BK has to go out and get someone to run that 2nd unit who has plenty of experience. I'm not sure who is available out there that we could sign but if we don't sign anyone then we are going to be in major trouble. Bibby is playing too many minutes right now because as soon as he leaves the court we start playing awful.

GST · February 24, 2008

Let me lay out a parable to defend what I just said. I have a cat. One day, I say to the cat "Cat, it's time you started pulling your weight around here. Therefore, I am giving you the responsibility to do my tax return this year. Here is all my paperwork, I'll come back in a little bit to check on your progress. I come back in a little bit to find the cat sleeping on top of the paperwork. Is it the cat's fault that it didn't fulfill my expectations? I would say it is my fault for having unrealistic expectations.

Likewise, it doesn't take a basketball genius to see over 4 seasons that Woody really doesn't have a coherent vision for this team. Woody is in over his head, but is that his fault, that he is not capable of doing this job? Woody is doing what anyone on this forum would do, ride this job for as long as possible, until the fat paychecks run out. The fault lies with those who will not recognize the elephant in the room (that Woody is not up to the job), and find a new head coach.

Nicholasp27 · February 24, 2008

if u can't see the difference between playing those guys minutes at the same time with a few other starters and playing ALL FIVE of the bench players at the EXACT SAME TIME, then i don't know what to say

i want more mins for mario/slim/solo/j-rich, but i don't want to see all 5 subs at one time

u don't just do mass substitutions 5 for 5...this isn't ymca ball

AmishBoy · February 24, 2008

Quote:

Likewise, it doesn't take a basketball genius to see over 4 seasons that Woody really doesn't have a coherent vision for this team.

It's been like this as an team since this rebuild started. First year Josh is a 3 then he's a 4. Shelden is a 4 then he's a five. Joe is a 1 then he's a 2. Al Harrington was a 4 then he was a 3 when Walker got here, or vise versa. Can't remember. Al Horford is a 5 but he could be a 4 within 2 season.

frosgrim · February 24, 2008

There are VAST differences between Sloan and Woodson. First and foremost, Sloan understands the complete NBA game. His players play in a system that allows them to flourish. Sloan teaches a set, half-court offense. He can teach players to play in that offense. For example, he took Deron Williams and made him into the player he is today. That is not to say that Williams wasn't tallented, but Sloan coached to the kid's tallents.

Woodson has no offense. He hasn't taught anyone up that I can see. Yes, J. Smith is playing well (most of the time), but come on, look at the regression of several players on the team.

Third, Woodson has a partial rotation. He also will yank players after a few minutes for no apparent reason. Furhtermore, he only plays the end of the bench (player 9 and down) occasionally. Steve Smith has commented on how poor a startegy this is. You have to have guys at the end of the bench get time so that they are ready to contribute when called upon. Take the Brave, Cox is a master of keeping guys ready to play because he rotates guys through the line-up. The same must be done with the Hawks.

Last night, Nic is right. You don't put all 5 bench players on the floor at the same time. You can set your rotations ahead of time to handle the back-to-back fatigue.

In closing, comparing Woodson to Sloan is like saying Ty Corbin was the equal of 'Nique.

Admin · February 24, 2008

First off, WHERE did I say they were equal, or even make a statement that was remotely similar? I said that Woodson gets flamed for doing the same EXACT thing that Sloan gets praised for. Sloan is a MUCH MUCH better coach and I wasn't trying to paint them as anywhere near equal.

I don't have the game to go back and watch but I am fairly sure it was 5 bench players against 5 bench players during that 2nd quarter stretch when we got way behind. Are you going to call out Sloan for doing that when his 2nd 5 whipped our 2nd five? Why should Woody get the blame for that? He needed his starters to get some rest while the Jazz starters were resting, which is what helped us get back in the game because our starters are better than theirs but their bench is better than ours.

Nicholasp27 · February 24, 2008

they had okur, korver, harpring in

we had j-rich (10 day contract), slim (plays once every 10 games), zaza (plays every 3rd game before the trade), jones (plays every 5th game) on the court at the same time

sloan had at least one starter in there and some vets who have started for many years

pimp · February 24, 2008

Woody saw that the lineup we had couldn't score.....heck... they couldn't even get a shot up with a the turnovers they had.He could have at least put one of the big 3 (JJ, JS,MB) into the game to run the offense through.

It got to the point where i was hope that JJ or someone else would stand up and say "'Hey coach, put back in before we get blown out"'

Admin · February 24, 2008

Zaza has been a starter for us until this year and would start on some teams in the league. Okur is better but he isn't light years better. Give Woody some veterans who have been around for a while instead of rookies and end of the bench players and maybe it would be even. I'm sure we would all love to have the 2nd unit that the Jazz have but we have young players or players who don't belong in the league with the majority of our bench

Plainview1981 · February 24, 2008

Shoulda woulda coulda

Teams that aren't good will find some way to lose games. I'm sure the team will continue to mess up when they get back to the east. Everybody is saying they will start winning these games once they get back to the east. Sorry, if you look at Hawks history you sure can't expect that to happen. You think the Hawks are going to start winning because of Bibby?

The team has too many flaws. Right now it looks like NJ and Philly are simply better teams.

yardbird · February 24, 2008

Honestly, I missed that part of the game due to family obligations. I've never seen Woody substitute 5 players before like that, so what made him do it then? Was it a combination of foul trouble, injuries and player exhaustion or did he just decide to try something new that didn't work? If he simply decided to sub in 5 players without extenuating circumstances, I'd agree that he exercised questionable judgment. Considering that we still were in the game at the end, I wouldn't say it was a total failure, but it would not be what I would have done in similar circumstances.

Objectively speaking and laying aside any anti-Woody sentiment, why do you think he chose to substitute that way? Was there any reasonable explanation for it?

TheNorthCydeRises · February 24, 2008

Quote:

Honestly, I missed that part of the game due to family obligations. I've never seen Woody substitute 5 players before like that, so what made him do it then? Was it a combination of foul trouble, injuries and player exhaustion or did he just decide to try something new that didn't work? If he simply decided to sub in 5 players without extenuating circumstances, I'd agree that he exercised questionable judgment. Considering that we still were in the game at the end, I wouldn't say it was a total failure, but it would not be what I would have done in similar circumstances.

Objectively speaking and laying aside any anti-Woody sentiment, why do you think he chose to substitute that way? Was there any reasonable explanation for it?

LOL @ why did he do it. Hmmmmm . . let's see:

- Hawks had scored a TOTAL of 11 points at the mandatory timeout at 2 minutes to go.

- Jazz were on a 10 - 0 run, when Salim came into the game at that point.

- They had also missed 8 of their last 10 shots, and had committed 5 turnovers during that 10 - 0 run.

- Jeremy Richardson enters the game with less than a minute left in the quarter, for the sole purpose of trying to give JJ a little breather.

- Woody starts the lineup of Salim, J-Rich, Chill, Solo, and Zaza to begin the 2nd quarter . . Utah has Brewer, Price, Harpring, Milsap, and Okur on the floor. They get outscored 2 - 0.

- Marvin comes in for J-Rich, and you now have a Salim, Chill, Marvin, Solo, and Zaza group on the floor. They promptly get outscored 4 - 0 in a 45 second span.

- Woody then puts Smoove and Bibby back in the game, in place of Salim and Solo.

If you ask me, the only thing that Woody was trying to do, is see if the Bench could provide a spark, seeing that the starters were playing like ish themselves. But since Woody can do nothing right, even when he DOES do something right, it will always be looked upon as a negative.

LOL . . the same guys complaining about our bench last night, are the same ones that suggested that J-Rich get more PT ahead of Marvin, and that Salim should play a lot of minutes each night. They're also the same guys complaining about seeing Solo. If these guys can't play together as a group, the ONLY way they can see the floor, is if you have a SET point in which you want them to enter the game, while on the floor with the majority of the starters.

In other words . . . a TIMED SUBSTITUTION PATTERN.

When Dolfan correctly points out that Sloan has a set substitution pattern, they go off the deep end, and says that Woody is no Sloan. Ish . . lol . . we already know that. Dolfan was just making the point that even a great coach like Jerry Sloan has a SET substitution pattern.

Matter of fact, ALL COACHES have a set substitution pattern. But the people on this board believe that Woody is the creator of timed subs for some strange reason.

The starters played inconsistent last night, and were turning the ball over left and right, but the bench played like absolute crap. As a bench/role player, the only thing you're asked to do, is to do what you're in the game for. If J-Rich and Salim are the shooters, make some damn shots. If Solo is a rebounder and defender, then grab a damn rebound and alter some shots. If Zaza is our banger, then do that on both ends of the floor.

If we win, Woody gets no credit ( as evident with the G-State win ).

If we lose, he gets all the blame.

LOL . . it's damned if he does . . damned if he doesn't.

mrhonline · February 24, 2008

Quote:

LOL . . it's damned if he does . . damned if he doesn't.

Tada. You've summarized my frustrations with the increasingly childish posts on this board over the past 6 months. I'm not sure if the average poster is simply younger than before, or if they're simpler not as smart as some of the ones that have flown off to better places.

Regardless, I know that similarly simplistic threads about coaches are taking place on message boards all over the country. It's the "I know better than the professional even though I'm sitting on my couch 6 hours a night" syndrome common to sports fans.

Woodson is currently a subpar coach, don't get me wrong. But to blame everything on him (AS MANY DO) is absurd.

yardbird · February 25, 2008

northcyde, Mr. Honline, thanks. Sounds like the substitution strategy had some logic. Like all strategy, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

There may need to be a coaching change, simply because these players may not be able to hear Woody well, even if he says the right thing. I don't think he's the league's best coach, but I don't think he's the worst either. I think he has the chance to look a lot better once Mike Bibby, his first competent veteran PG, gets healthy.

Thanks for constructive commentary on the subject.

Gray Mule · February 25, 2008

Just think a minute. Hawks shots weren't falling. How many were "In and out" for

Atlanta when we fell so far behind? Bunches of them.

Remember, just before the half? Hawks began to score. The 3 ball brought us

back to within 7. Announcers said how nice, after Bibby hit three straight to

bring us within 10, how great it would be if we could get a stop and keep the

score there. They did, then Josh hit that last long three and cut it to seven!

When the Hawks can hit their shots consistently, they can play with ANY team

in the NBA. It's that simple. If they go cold, they are hopeless and helpless.

Up until the last part of the 2nd quarter, Hawks simply couldn't score.

Our defense did their job. Opponent hadn't scored THAT many points and

many of them came off turnovers. Hawks simply didn't score.

True, we blame Woody when we loose and give the players the praise when

they do win. Regardless of who you have as a coach, if the shots don't fall for

the Hawks, they can't win. Woody gets enough grief, much of which he earns

for himself. This one wasn't entirely his falut.

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Dukegotgame · February 25, 2008