Marvin or Smoove.

[Diesel]

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I will not pass final judgement until a true coaching staff is implemented. Both players will not reach full potential until they get a real facilitater to put them in their most optimal positions.

Ala Rafer Alston - on TNT he tells Mcgrady to post up Brewer and play the perimeter with whoever else guards him because he will have the advantage.

MW is a good jumpshooter from 15-17 feet but his range beyond that is very poor and who says he'll make those jumpshots most of the time. Those are not high percentage lay ups and players struggle with mid range jumpers all the time. How many last minute clutch "mid range" shots has he made this season?

JS struggles with long jumpshots and if he doesn't improve by 24 than something has to be done. He has a very decent post game considering this is his first year playing the post full time.

Bottom line, if MW can net us a top ten pick than we can draft a need with potential instead of extending a player with a very limited game right now. If J. Rich gets MW minutes, I'm very confident he scores 10-15 ppg, easily.

JS is a game changer on the defensive end and just more versatile with tons more potential. If players like Maurice Evans (who literally had the shooting range of Shaq) can improve their shot all the way to the 3, I'm not giving up on JS...

I understand what you are saying, however, I'm not for killing the franchise any longer to see if Marvin will ever turn out! IF we get a new coach... I wouldn't be surprised to see him coming off the bench!

[Diesel]

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then you will have what we've been having. NO POST Offense.

This from the guy who wants to bring in JO.

So is this to say that you would rather just leave things the same???

Come on Flaccid man... Make a strong suggestion instead of a limp potshot!!

Your flaccidity is killing us!

[exodus]

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then you will have what we've been having. NO POST Offense.

This from the guy who wants to bring in JO.

So is this to say that you would rather just leave things the same???

Come on Flaccid man... Make a strong suggestion instead of a limp potshot!!

Your flaccidity is killing us!

I guess you missed the Marvin/Bibby for Redd deal that we were talking about yesterday. And unlike your nonsensical trade proposals this is actually acceptable to Bucks fans.

[Joker]

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I would trade Smoove in a heartbeat. Smoove's negatives outdo Marv. The main knock on Marv is that he isn't aggressive or is too passive. Smoove gets the reputation as a great defender because of the blocks but he can't play man on man worth a damn and he is s turn over machine. He will block three shoots but turn the ball over 5 times. I think that Smoove is what he is and right now no one can say that he is way better than Smoove. But I will make this comment that neither will ever reach their full potential without a good coach. They both have alot of bad habits that the coach let them develop. Both these guys are still young but I think Marvin is more coachable.

Agree and he's more importantly ten times the price as of next season.

[Diesel]

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then you will have what we've been having. NO POST Offense.

This from the guy who wants to bring in JO.

So is this to say that you would rather just leave things the same???

Come on Flaccid man... Make a strong suggestion instead of a limp potshot!!

Your flaccidity is killing us!

I guess you missed the Marvin/Bibby for Redd deal that we were talking about yesterday. And unlike your nonsensical trade proposals this is actually acceptable to Bucks fans.

I missed that.. however, I don't see any nonesense in Smoove for Okafor. Ask a bobcat fan and they'd probably go for it.

Same with Marvin for Pryzibillia.

Again... WTF are you talking about.

So, you're in favor of Marv/Bibby for Redd.

How exactly does that really help the true problem? Doesn't it make it worst? JJ will have to play Sf. Moreover, Redd's not going to play defense either. I'm sure Milwaukee fans were all over the trade. Redd's salary and his none defense is part of why they are in the lottery.

[HawksBalla]

Look, Marvin is a joke. The only reason he scores points is because he gets to the foul line. Once scouts learn to back off Marvina and let him shoot, its over. He is out of trouble, not confident, and just awkward. He cant shoot a 3. He cant beat anyone off the dribble. He disappears in games. Plus dont forget he's scoring 15 points in what, 36 minutes? Thats not terribly difficult when you get all the open jumpers that Marvin does because JJ gets doubled and tripled.

Josh Smith is our only shot blocker, gets a good amount of steals, has range to hit 3s, can rebound well. Yeah he cant shoot but lots of players learned how to shoot. Look at Kobe, Magic. Obviously those were some of the best but the skill is the same.

Anoter reason to trade Marvin...he really cant play another position. Smoove can play either forward.

How much longer are we going to Marvin a free pass because he's young and supposedly has potential and talent? And do we REALLY want to give him an extension next year, outside of the fact that if we dont it looks like we failed in the '05 draft?

[GST]

Wurider, well said. I am not real happy with Marvin's lack of aggressiveness, but any scenario that has Smoove at SF will cripple this team. Some folks on this forum realized that what to do with Smoove was the other side of the coin of drafting Horford, now we are coming to decision time on Smoove. That said, Gearon Jr. will probably block any trade of Smoove, just like he did the Chillz for Calderon trade. I don't feel good about the future of this team with the owners overruling the GM.

[exodus]

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So, you're in favor of Marv/Bibby for Redd.

How exactly does that really help the true problem?

We have a lot of problems. A big one is a lack of perimeter scoring. The reason Bibby helped JJ isn't because Bibby is a good pg. It is because he is a threat to score from the perimeter (at least on some nights).

Another big problem is a true go to scorer to compliment JJ. The reason Bucks fans are ready to get rid of Redd is that they know Redd can't be the first option on a contending team. The same can be said of JJ. I am a big fan of JJ but he is not Lebron or Kobe. He needs more help.

Right now JJ has to face the best perimeter defender on the other team as well as constant doubles. Redd faces the same thing. Together the defenses will have a much tougher time dealing with them.

Having those two on the perimeter will open things up inside for Smith and Horford. Like it or not Smith scores 9 ppg inside and he will be even more effective inside with more room to operate. Ditto Horford. Plus having a guy like Redd along with JJ roaming the perimeter wil make Smith less inclined to hang out at the 3 pt line since he will be less likely to get the ball.

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I don't see any nonesense in Smoove for Okafor. Ask a bobcat fan and they'd probably go for it.

Why would they do it? I don't see how he fits there. If they aren't willing to pay Okafor I don't see why they would be willing to pay Smith.

[Lascar78]

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I'm not claiming he's a prototypical PF, but you can not play him at SF. He'll always have somewhat of a tweener game but PF is clearly his position in the nba, no doubt about it. SF's blow right by him like PG's blow by joe/chill.

Just like you have to play salim at PG even though he doesn't have a classic pg game

Sorry..

But if you play Smoove primarily at PF.. then you will have what we've been having. NO POST Offense. You are what you can defend WHEN your offense runs smoothly. However, if you don't have an offense presence in the post... you are not a PF. That's our problem with Smoove at PF. He's got the offensive game of a Sf. Not that he's a good 3 pt shooter, but that he has no identity in the post. NO move, no desire to be there.

I would rather play Al at PF.. Smoove at Sf than to play Al at C and Smoove at PF... that's just two players terribly out of position!

The reason this is annoying as hell is that Smith doesn't go in the post because Woody doesn't make him. When he actually goes there, he excels. We could be fine with Smith at PF if we had a coach tailoring his game, not letting him do what feels fun for him.

Also, Smith defending SF's is a disaster. They blow by him and he's not in the post to get all of his help blocks, which is a major part of his game. You just can not play him at SF.

[Joker]

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I'm not claiming he's a prototypical PF, but you can not play him at SF. He'll always have somewhat of a tweener game but PF is clearly his position in the nba, no doubt about it. SF's blow right by him like PG's blow by joe/chill.

Just like you have to play salim at PG even though he doesn't have a classic pg game

Sorry..

But if you play Smoove primarily at PF.. then you will have what we've been having. NO POST Offense. You are what you can defend WHEN your offense runs smoothly. However, if you don't have an offense presence in the post... you are not a PF. That's our problem with Smoove at PF. He's got the offensive game of a Sf. Not that he's a good 3 pt shooter, but that he has no identity in the post. NO move, no desire to be there.

I would rather play Al at PF.. Smoove at Sf than to play Al at C and Smoove at PF... that's just two players terribly out of position!

The reason this is annoying as hell is that Smith doesn't go in the post because Woody doesn't make him. When he actually goes there, he excels. We could be fine with Smith at PF if we had a coach tailoring his game, not letting him do what feels fun for him.

Also, Smith defending SF's is a disaster. They blow by him and he's not in the post to get all of his help blocks, which is a major part of his game. You just can not play him at SF.

Josh is not 12, you can't make him do anything he doesn't want to do.

[Lascar78]

If you're a real coach you sure as hell can, are you kidding me? You demand respect and if you don't get it you bench his ass and make him run laps.

[Joker]

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If you're a real coach you sure as hell can, are you kidding me? You demand respect and if you don't get it you bench his ass and make him run laps.

Be real, every contract year I hear Tim Thomas and Larry Hughes will play like this for good and have finally learned and what happen after the big payday. Not a g-- damn thing! I don't see it, improvement with a different coach is one thing but listening and doing what your suppose to do is another. Josh hasn't shown that he capable of playing ball without doing stupid s*i* at least 5 times in a game. He overall impact is minimal, and he doesn't play team defense, just plays for himself, enough said.

[Lascar78]

I never said he would stop doing stupid [censored]. I said we should have him standing in the post instead of the perimeter during our average play. That is highly, highly controllable.

[Johnnybravo4]

I am guessing that Hawks fans who advocate trading Smoove don't live in Atl and damn sure aren't from here. If you trade Josh Smith we'd better win 60 games because that is the only way we'd draw more than 15,000 per. If you don't understand that the you don't understand the dynamics of Atlanta sports.

[Wurider05]

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If you're a real coach you sure as hell can, are you kidding me? You demand respect and if you don't get it you bench his ass and make him run laps.

Be real, every contract year I hear Tim Thomas and Larry Hughes will play like this for good and have finally learned and what happen after the big payday. Not a g-- damn thing! I don't see it, improvement with a different coach is one thing but listening and doing what your suppose to do is another. Josh hasn't shown that he capable of playing ball without doing stupid s*i* at least 5 times in a game. He overall impact is minimal, and he doesn't play team defense, just plays for himself, enough said.

That is what I said in a post a few weeks back. It is a contract year and he can't even pretend like he wants to play under control. He can't even fake it. I really don't see him getting any better. Don't get it twisted and think that I want him traded or don't think that he is good player but sometimes you got to look past the stats (which can be padded) and ask the hard questions:

If we get a center:

1. Can Smoove play PF better than Horford?

2. Can Smoove play SF better than Marvin?

Sometimes the popular decision isn't always the right one? He is a tweener that wants to be a guard. When he gets the ball and takes it down court he gets a crazed look in his eyes and I tell myself he is about to turn it over. But with a new coach I think that our current lineup with the right offense/defense can win 50 games next season. WE NEED A NEW COACH PEOPLE BUT UNFORTUNATELY THE DECISION ON SMOOVE HAS TO BE MADE THIS SUMMER!!!

[Antmillennium]

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If you're a real coach you sure as hell can, are you kidding me? You demand respect and if you don't get it you bench his ass and make him run laps.

Be real, every contract year I hear Tim Thomas and Larry Hughes will play like this for good and have finally learned and what happen after the big payday. Not a g-- damn thing! I don't see it, improvement with a different coach is one thing but listening and doing what your suppose to do is another. Josh hasn't shown that he capable of playing ball without doing stupid s*i* at least 5 times in a game. He overall impact is minimal, and he doesn't play team defense, just plays for himself, enough said.

That is what I said in a post a few weeks back. It is a contract year and he can't even pretend like he wants to play under control. He can't even fake it. I really don't see him getting any better. Don't get it twisted and think that I want him traded or don't think that he is good player but sometimes you got to look past the stats (which can be padded) and ask the hard questions:

If we get a center:

1. Can Smoove play PF better than Horford?

2. Can Smoove play SF better than Marvin?

Sometimes the popular decision isn't always the right one? He is a tweener that wants to be a guard. When he gets the ball and takes it down court he gets a crazed look in his eyes and I tell myself he is about to turn it over. But with a new coach I think that our current lineup with the right offense/defense can win 50 games next season. WE NEED A NEW COACH PEOPLE BUT UNFORTUNATELY THE DECISION ON SMOOVE HAS TO BE MADE THIS SUMMER!!!

Dude, you can slice it and look at it any way you want. However, any GM with common sense is picking Josh Smith over Marvin Williams every time. Smith has the potential to be special. Marvin just has the potential to be above average.

[mrhonline]

This question assumes Smith could play SF effectively, something many of us don't agree with.

To me, the real question is Smith vs. Horford, and I'd take the latter 10 times out of 10.

[Diesel]

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The reason this is annoying as hell is that Smith doesn't go in the post because Woody doesn't make him. When he actually goes there, he excels. We could be fine with Smith at PF if we had a coach tailoring his game, not letting him do what feels fun for him.

Also, Smith defending SF's is a disaster. They blow by him and he's not in the post to get all of his help blocks, which is a major part of his game. You just can not play him at SF.

Hell, Smith doesn't go to the post because he doesn't have the desire to play inside. Playing inside is a aquired skill. There are a few players in this league who can play inside and feel more comfortable with a body on them. Smoove doesn't. That's why you never see Smoove just dunk over somebody. I don't think he feels comfortable in a crowd or dunking over somebody. Watching him on a fast break. He would rather try to lay it in than to dunk with authority when somebody is down low. Sometimes, he will even take it out or try for a pull up jumper.

It speaks volumes to what his preference is. Just like Gerald Wallace playing PF. Wallace had to tell Vicent, I'm not comfortable playing PF. I get banged to much. Smoove is not a banger. He's a finesse guy. He doesn't fit at PF.

[Wurider05]

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He's a finesse guy. He doesn't fit at PF.

Thats the problem with Smoove he wants to hang out on the perimeter and shoot jumpers like Dirk. Maybe was can do a sign and trade for Dirk with SMoove. Dirk wouldn't mind playing center. How about Bibby and SMoove for JT and Dirk? LOL

[mrhonline]

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Smoove is not a banger. He's a finesse guy. He doesn't fit at PF.

And he sucks on the perimeter, which is where "non-finesse" players can succeed.

So what are you saying? He has no role on offense?