Marvin trades?

[frosgrim]

I know that the disappointment of loosing in 7 games has people up in arms, but lets all step back and take a look at where this team is before hastily constructing trading Marvin/Childress/Zaza/Smith/Bibby for a bag of chips.

IMO, the team's biggest problems come from

1) lack of experience- youngest team ever in the playoffs

2) relying on 22 year olds to be #2 scorers

3) lack of post scoring

4) bench depth

Problems 1 & 2 in many ways will fix themselves as the players mature. Another vet is neeeded, but see #4

Problem 3 has to come from Horford. We aren't going to be able to trade for post scoring. The entire NBA is looking for that.

Problem 4 is the must handle problem this offseason. We have to add a slasher and another big man. David Andersen handles the big man issue and adds some bench scoring. A slasher is still needed and that might be handled through the MLE.

To trade Marvin only exacerbates the problem of depth on this team. Marvin, if nothing else, provides depth for this team. He can still get significantly better. Last offseason he matured mentally- you can hear it in his interviews and the way he carries himself. This offseason must be dedicated to his body. He has to learn how to drive with authority and/or learn post moves. With his frame, he should be able to post any SF in the game outside of Ron Artest. The kid has ridiculous length and needs to learn how to use it.

A trade of Childress- again trading him weakens the bench. If he is traded then we need to someone who can create his own shot, but who would be willing to trade a shot creator for Childress? Chil can be valuable when surrounded by other scorers. Childress is sort of McHale-like in that can get a bunch of garbage buckets.

Bibby- Looks inconsistant and out of control. However, what the heck else can we get for a PG right now? His contract will be more valuable come Feb than it will be in the offseason anways.

The Josh Smith/Al Horford/Center question- Al Horford is becoming the team leader. He is the most untouchable Hawk. It is plain that he's a better PF than a Center, but moving Horford to Center means pulling Josh Smith out of the starting 5. Josh is a classic tweaner. He can't play SF for long stretches as his shooting is attrocious and his handles are bad when in traffic. Josh is much better in the high and low post positions where he can just leap over people. Trading Josh, though, would be a mistake. The kid has gobs of potential, probably the most on the team. Thus, we are left with a conundrum of what to do with our power positions? I think the team can survive and even thrive with the Josh/Horford combo, IF we can find a 7' 280+ pound center to come off the bench. This new center would be used against the few big centers in the NBA (Big Z, Shaq, Duncan) that Horford has problems with. Josh comes out of the starting 5 when playing those guys and Horford slips over to the 4. The problem is finding such a player, and I am not sure who that is.

Short of the long, trading pieces right now must equate to getting a more veteran player of equal ability, OR two players of potential that can help off the bench immediately. This team needs to get 9 deep before the start of next season. Another vet presence is sorely needed to help with keeping the lockerroom in order.

[swolehawk2]

It is silly to bash this team for losing in a game 7 on the road the team with the best record....it is just silly.

This team is two bench veterans and a vet coach away from going deep into the playoffs.

Trading 20 year olds....is just dumb. Our frontcourt is like 12 years old....amazing.

[Diesel]

I think you make the points very well about our problems.

The truth is that we have a flawed team. We can't keep Smoove and Play Horf at PF.... UNLESS we get a legit Center. Preferably a good defensive Center who can shoot from range on offense.

Here's some names that fit that bill:

Rasheed Wallace, Bargnani, Biedrins, and Okur.

Of those, could Marvin get us either of those guys? I think the closest would be Bargnani. Bargnani is just not going to be a tough defender though.

So the option to keep Marvin stands.

So the next question is how do we fix our Center problem. Dave Anderson has become a savior. The problem is D. Andersen is Euro Soft. He may add some offense.

There's also some bigs that will be available:

Kwame Brown, Jamaal Magloire, Stromile Swift, and Diop will all be free agents. Of those, Diop is the only one who I would give attention to.

Still, we have no money, no picks.

Moving Bibby is an option that we have to consider. Especially if we keep Smoove. Contract wise, trading Bibby makes the most sense. The problem is that team who would be interested in Bibby probably won't be interested until midseason.

So the options as I see them for the Hawks is try to keep everybody... DO some training. I would like to see these guys under a different coach. Under a different coach, I believe Salim would be a PG who plays. Under a different coach, I'm sure that Law would probably run the show. Under a different coach, I think that Marvin comes off the bench and Smoove gives up that three point shooting fetish.

[Joker]

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I think you make the points very well about our problems.

The truth is that we have a flawed team. We can't keep Smoove and Play Horf at PF.... UNLESS we get a legit Center. Preferably a good defensive Center who can shoot from range on offense.

Here's some names that fit that bill:

Rasheed Wallace, Bargnani, Biedrins, and Okur.

Of those, could Marvin get us either of those guys? I think the closest would be Bargnani. Bargnani is just not going to be a tough defender though.

So the option to keep Marvin stands.

So the next question is how do we fix our Center problem. Dave Anderson has become a savior. The problem is D. Andersen is Euro Soft. He may add some offense.

There's also some bigs that will be available:

Kwame Brown, Jamaal Magloire, Stromile Swift, and Diop will all be free agents. Of those, Diop is the only one who I would give attention to.

Still, we have no money, no picks.

Moving Bibby is an option that we have to consider. Especially if we keep Smoove. Contract wise, trading Bibby makes the most sense. The problem is that team who would be interested in Bibby probably won't be interested until midseason.

So the options as I see them for the Hawks is try to keep everybody... DO some training. I would like to see these guys under a different coach. Under a different coach, I believe Salim would be a PG who plays. Under a different coach, I'm sure that Law would probably run the show. Under a different coach, I think that Marvin comes off the bench and Smoove gives up that three point shooting fetish.

Only Biedriens has potienial to be an Hawk and even that will cost us. Face it, if we keep Smith for the price he demanding then we are no different then the Bulls or any other team. At best a playoff team, at worst late lottery. We are never going to contend. Josh Smith will never be the player many of you wished he would be and I been saying that all alone.

Look at the playoffs series with the Celtics.

Marvin: two good games, three average games, and two terrible games

Josh Smith: two great games, one average game, and four terrible games.

That's not the type of player you invest 10 mil in, regardless even MAX. He is not that good, he can be a very good player on the right team and the Hawks aren't that. We would have to trade Horford and JJ and build around Smith and that's asinine.

Different coach is good for some but not everyone. Do you think a different coach is going to make Redd play harder on a non .500 team. Do you think a different coach made Chauncey, Rip, and Ben mesh. No, it's all about the roster and the chemistry they built. With Smith we are never going to have great chemistry. He does dumb sh!t too much and the style that would best fit us as a team, doesn't fit Josh at all. He a fan fav. guess what so is Keith Brooking but I feel the Falcons were better without him starting then otherwise. Just because someone a fan favorite doesn't mean you keep him, especially at a ricudilous price that he will probably attract.

[Vol4ever]

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It is silly to bash this team for losing in a game 7 on the road the team with the best record....it is just silly.

This team is two bench veterans and a vet coach away from going deep into the playoffs.

Trading 20 year olds....is just dumb. Our frontcourt is like 12 years old....amazing.

You are right on!

[Diesel]

Allowing Smoove to Walk is not a smart option. Smoove is young, he's already shown that he can grow. I say we reup him. Put him in a big man's camp and let him try to grow as a second PF. In fact, send him and Horf off to the same big man camp.

I don't know if trading Marv would get us anything in return.

I don't know if Anderson is an answer. He seems like he has shooting range... Could he be our OKUR?

I think the success of our team is teaching Smoove how to drive and play solid defense.

Smoove doesn't have to play Stellar defense. Just solid defense. Every other position however, has to do it's job. Smoove is not Deke. Deke would block shots and intimidate as the game went on. People can be intimidated by Smoove but Most good teams will get a good post player (like Powe or Perkins) and have them run post on Smoove while putting a body to him. Smoove post defense is not good. Still, Big man camp can help that. I would hire Clifford Ray to work with Smoove and Horford during the season on footwork and big man skills.

The role for Marv has to change. He has to be an off the bench source of points. He's not going to be an elite player. He's too clumsy. However, he can be a 20 mpg player who plays well off the bench.

I have given up on Fantasies of getting Biedrins or Okur. We might get lucky and have some sorry 7 footer fall to us, but that's not help. Moreover, I think we have good pieces we just have to resign everybody and fix the ship. That requires a new coach IMO.

[Joker]

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Allowing Smoove to Walk is not a smart option. Smoove is young, he's already shown that he can grow. I say we reup him. Put him in a big man's camp and let him try to grow as a second PF. In fact, send him and Horf off to the same big man camp.

I don't know if trading Marv would get us anything in return.

I don't know if Anderson is an answer. He seems like he has shooting range... Could he be our OKUR?

I think the success of our team is teaching Smoove how to drive and play solid defense.

Smoove doesn't have to play Stellar defense. Just solid defense. Every other position however, has to do it's job. Smoove is not Deke. Deke would block shots and intimidate as the game went on. People can be intimidated by Smoove but Most good teams will get a good post player (like Powe or Perkins) and have them run post on Smoove while putting a body to him. Smoove post defense is not good. Still, Big man camp can help that. I would hire Clifford Ray to work with Smoove and Horford during the season on footwork and big man skills.

The role for Marv has to change. He has to be an off the bench source of points. He's not going to be an elite player. He's too clumsy. However, he can be a 20 mpg player who plays well off the bench.

I have given up on Fantasies of getting Biedrins or Okur. We might get lucky and have some sorry 7 footer fall to us, but that's not help. Moreover, I think we have good pieces we just have to resign everybody and fix the ship. That requires a new coach IMO.

I never said allow him to walk, that would be dumb as hell. He has a lot of value to a team like Memphis who plays the style he would like and he can be him all day without being a major problem. We have all been to camps since unno forever. I don't remember getting that much better at one, this isn't NBA 2k8, diesel. Josh Smith is what he is, asking him to playing under control and play solid man defense is like asking Zaza to make moves like Tim Duncan. He doesn't have the mindframe, I doubt he ever will, well at least with the Hawks.

Trading Marvin straight up want get us nothing because he doesn't make much money. But with Bibby for Redd and Bogut is a possibility.

Smoove is a stat stuffer, his defense is based around stats. He get come from behind blocks, he tries to block shots, ends up out of position and the offensive player normally scores. He's getting rebounds more so on his athletic ability then boxing out and or rebounding position. All you have to do is pump fake him twice and he in the air like a bunny rabbit. His post defense sucks. His perimeter defense sucks. But he can get stats fantasy heads.

A new coach can't turn sugar into water, he can't turn sh!t into diamonds, and he most defintely can't turned the Atlanta Hawks into championship contenders with the current roster and the cap they have.

[frosgrim]

There are numerous players in numerous sports that have taken young, undisciplined players and turned them into champions, ex: the matching of Chauncy Billups and Larry Brown is a great example of how the right coach with the right player makes all the difference.

Josh Smith needs someone to get in his head and get him to play to his strengths. It is obvious to me that Smith wants to win. He wants to insure a win, but he doesn't know how to do that, so he makes very bad decisions at times. But, the kid is only 22 and had no college coaching to mold his game and mind. I think Fratello's experience with Nique make Mike the perfect guy to work with Smith to fully develop the kid's game. To say that Smith can't become a dominant player is foolish. Smith could develop in a perinial All-Star player. His mind just has to cath-up with is body.

D is right that Smith now needs to commit to post defense and post offense. This summer needs to be spent on figuring out how to deny post positioning and how to post guys up. Smith should be able to take a single dribble and then drop step to easy baskets. However, he has to work on that move.

Horford needs to work on similar issues, but I would like to see him gain an understaninding that he's quicker than the 7's he has to face. He needs to use reverse layups and jams to eliminate the height disadvantage. Ex has pointed this out all year long.

Andersen is just anohter big body to put on the court IMO. He will work very well with Bibby and JJ in pick and pops however. Andersen could create the space both guys need to be more effective in the half court game. Andersen, however, will provide little defense.

A guy that I would love to see added to the Hawks is Mike Finely as that vocal vet leader who can still slash. I know Finely isn't available, but there has to be someone like him that we can get for the MLE.

One strange idea that might work is Bibby for Kidd in principle. Others may have to be added to make all the cap work out. Kidd gives the toughness and leadership this team needs. I think he would work better with the Hawks than he did with the Mavs.

[Joker]

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There are numerous players in numerous sports that have taken young, undisciplined players and turned them into champions, ex: the matching of Chauncy Billups and Larry Brown is a great example of how the right coach with the right player makes all the difference.

Josh Smith needs someone to get in his head and get him to play to his strengths. It is obvious to me that Smith wants to win. He wants to insure a win, but he doesn't know how to do that, so he makes very bad decisions at times. But, the kid is only 22 and had no college coaching to mold his game and mind. I think Fratello's experience with Nique make Mike the perfect guy to work with Smith to fully develop the kid's game. To say that Smith can't become a dominant player is foolish. Smith could develop in a perinial All-Star player. His mind just has to cath-up with is body.

D is right that Smith now needs to commit to post defense and post offense. This summer needs to be spent on figuring out how to deny post positioning and how to post guys up. Smith should be able to take a single dribble and then drop step to easy baskets. However, he has to work on that move.

Horford needs to work on similar issues, but I would like to see him gain an understaninding that he's quicker than the 7's he has to face. He needs to use reverse layups and jams to eliminate the height disadvantage. Ex has pointed this out all year long.

Andersen is just anohter big body to put on the court IMO. He will work very well with Bibby and JJ in pick and pops however. Andersen could create the space both guys need to be more effective in the half court game. Andersen, however, will provide little defense.

A guy that I would love to see added to the Hawks is Mike Finely as that vocal vet leader who can still slash. I know Finely isn't available, but there has to be someone like him that we can get for the MLE.

One strange idea that might work is Bibby for Kidd in principle. Others may have to be added to make all the cap work out. Kidd gives the toughness and leadership this team needs. I think he would work better with the Hawks than he did with the Mavs.

Billups changed when he got to a team that fit him, note that their coach was Rick Carlisle. Larry Brown is a great coach and makes most his players better, but he doesn't turn s!*t into diamonds either, no one can. He came to a team that already had a core, all he had to do was coach them and not develop them. Larry Brown took the Sixers to the finals in a seriously down year for the eastern conf. Not to say the Nets make it twice and many people felt the Western Conf series was the Finals.

Josh Smith needs to go to a team that will let him be him. Simple as that, the Hawks aren't it. Smith doesn't listen when can't do him, no matter who's coaching. If Czar comes here and Smith still the same what will you say then, Czar too old, quit defending Josh he had 4 years of amble experience and he wants elite level money, he better produce at a elite level. He is not going to be perenial anything in Atlanta. I will guruantee that.

Once again, you could work Zaza out with Tim Grover, that doesn't mean he will be jumping like MJ. Camps are what they are, we have a great big man teacher on our staff and Josh still sucks in the post. Horford weakenesses in the post our weakeness that he can improve on with experience and training, he will be ok. Smith, I don't know he reminds me of Shawn Marion but with different strenghts and weaknesses.

Finley on a championship team, those guys retire before they consider the Hawks. Kidd isn't going nowhere...

[frosgrim]

No, Brown is credited by Billups for transforming his game. Brown coached before Carlisle.

Smith is 22 and can easily improve, to deny that is moronic.

Kidd not leaving, give me a break. Dallas is going to completely rebuild in the offseason. I would put the chance of Kidd moving at over 80%. Is he a fit for the Hawks and at what cost is another matter.

Again, coaching makes a huge difference with some athletes. Farve, Billups, Plunket, Armstrong, Nique, all are examples of guys that were bad decision makers that once they got with good coaching radically improved their games. Your assertions have no proof nor do they resonate with reality.

[exodus]

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Josh Smith needs to go to a team that will let him be him.

Simple as that, the Hawks aren't it

( I am not even sure how to correct this mess of a sentence).

Smith doesn't listen when can't do him

, no matter who's coaching. If Czar comes here and

Smith still

(somebody forgot a verb) the same what will you say then, Czar too old, quit defending Josh he had 4 years of

amble

experience and he wants elite level money, he better produce at a elite level (runon sentence from hell). He is not going to be

perenial

anything in Atlanta. I will

guruantee

that.

I doubt i got all the mistakes in that paragraph. If anyone else wants to take a shot at it be my guest.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

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Only Biedriens has potienial to be an Hawk and even that will cost us. Face it, if we keep Smith for the price he demanding then we are no different then the Bulls or any other team. At best a playoff team, at worst late lottery. We are never going to contend. Josh Smith will never be the player many of you wished he would be and I been saying that all alone.

Look at the playoffs series with the Celtics.

Marvin: two good games, three average games, and two terrible games

Josh Smith: two great games, one average game, and four terrible games.

That's not the type of player you invest 10 mil in, regardless even MAX. He is not that good, he can be a very good player on the right team and the Hawks aren't that. We would have to trade Horford and JJ and build around Smith and that's asinine.

Different coach is good for some but not everyone. Do you think a different coach is going to make Redd play harder on a non .500 team. Do you think a different coach made Chauncey, Rip, and Ben mesh. No, it's all about the roster and the chemistry they built. With Smith we are never going to have great chemistry. He does dumb sh!t too much and the style that would best fit us as a team, doesn't fit Josh at all. He a fan fav. guess what so is Keith Brooking but I feel the Falcons were better without him starting then otherwise. Just because someone a fan favorite doesn't mean you keep him, especially at a ricudilous price that he will probably attract.

I think the problem with Josh, is that everybody keeps telling him that he's going to be a superstar if he does this, this, and this. Like I said before the season, it's kind of like what Kirilenko was going through, before the Jazz added Boozer and Deron. Yeah, he has talent and is a very exciting player to watch.

But AK47 has some SERIOUS limitations as a player, especially offensively, that will always keep him from being a true star player from a scoring standpoint. He's a tremendous complimentary player though.

But as soon as Sloan got a legit PF and PG to replace Malone and Stockton, he knew he had to reduce the offensive role of AK and convince him to be the all-around defensive glue of the team.

This series, more than any other player on this team, illustrated what is great and what is horrible about Smoove. We already knew it, but his good and bad traits were magnified during the playoffs.

Next season will be interesting. If Horford improves his offensive game, he's going to have to get more touches. Smith is just too erratic of a scorer to be the #2 option on this team, especially when he shoots sub 45% FG from the PF position. And we all know why he shoots that low.

If Smith changes his mentality toward his offensive game, and becomes almost exclusively a player that plays 15 feet and in, he'll become more efficient offensively and will have a chance to be a star.

But as long as he plays out on the perimeter, keeps shooting long jumpers, refuses to drive the ball 75% of the time, and thinks he's Magic Johnson on the break, he's going to have consistency problems that will always limit him as a player.

People keep waiting on his jumpshot to improve. It's not going to happen folks. What can improve, is how he can score on the inside. But he has to get tougher and more aggressive, in order for that to happen. In other words, he can't be soft, and play PF. And he doesn't have the skills on offense to play SF. The kid just has to get tougher

[Hawk88]

We should ship Marvin for a Coke and bag of Fritos.

Hawk88

[JohnnyCASH]

TRADE HIM 4 http://games.espn.go.com/nba/features/trad...15~15&te=&cash=

[Murat]

Great post northcyde!

Smoove is better than Marvin everyone knows that, but this offseason we have to improve our team and not just throw money on Smoove. Marvin trades need to stop until end of the next year.

[SmooveTheFuture]

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Great post northcyde!

Smoove is better than Marvin everyone knows that, but this offseason we have to improve our team and not just throw money on Smoove. Marvin trades need to stop until end of the next year.

Are you kidding me Smoove is the better player hands down. What has Marvin done here to warrant him staying here over Smoove except being taking over numerous allstars. I will be shocked if Smith is dealt he is a huge fan favorite home town kid that would be the stupiiest move this franchise could do. We have a better shot to win the game with Smoove then Marvin no questions asked. Like North Clyde said if Smith can take the 3 point shot and long jumpers out of his game he will be a much better player overall.

[thesheedera]

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Smoove is better than Marvin everyone knows that,

Are you kidding me Smoove is the better player hands down.

wtf

[SmooveTheFuture]

I might to copy his last sentence that states Marvin shouldnt be traded the guy has done nothing here.

[Murat]

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Smoove is better than Marvin everyone knows that,

Are you kidding me Smoove is the better player hands down.

wtf

Yeah this guy obviously doesn't read. He saw a word "trade" next to Smoove i bet. That's all he needs.

[HawksBalla]

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TRADE HIM 4

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/features/trad...15~15&te=&cash=

I wish.