A thought about coaching I had today.

[Diesel]

I was thinking about it... You know what could be the case with our coaching...

Maybe it's possible that ASG is waiting on Doc Rivers to get fired by Boston.

Think about it, the Celts have yet to win a road game. When they eventually lose in the playoffs, probably to DeeeeTroit Basketball, Ainge will have no choice but to fire Doc. The big three has a window and it's closing.

Why Doc for Atlanta?

Well, for starters, he's an Atlanta product. He has been successful with young teams. He's respected around the league. He has to be really close to Gearon Jr. and Nique. The franchise could take on the label of a city made franchise.

Just a thought.

[atlien]

First, Billy King. Now, Doc Rivers. You are the king of LATERAL MOVES!

We can do better.

[TheTrueSiete]

I agree with the Billy King move being lateral, maybe even regression... But Doc Rivers being a lateral move compared to Woody? You have got to be kidding me... Have you seen Boston's defense?

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[Diesel]

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First, Billy King. Now, Doc Rivers. You are the king of LATERAL MOVES!

We can do better.

I still think an experienced GM (King) is better than 2 guys who have never built a team, never made the final decisions. Never made their own draft choices.

I also have to laugh at your talk about Doc being a lateral move. First off, Doc can coach offense and he has proven this year that he can coach defense too. Look at the growth of Kendrick Perkins under Doc. Recall what Doc did in Orlando before they traded for TMac and Grant Hill.

[Admin]

Doc is not the one that is credited for their defense, it's their assistant coach Tom Thibodeau who installed the system. Woody was at worst equal to Doc during the playoffs and considering the experience, talent, and depth that Boston had over us and they still had to go 7 games to beat us I would say that Doc did a pretty poor job and that's why if they don't win the championship this year many think he will be fired.

[atlien]

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Doc is not the one that is credited for their defense, it's their assistant coach Tom Thibodeau who installed the system. Woody was at worst equal to Doc during the playoffs and considering the experience, talent, and depth that Boston had over us and they still had to go 7 games to beat us I would say that Doc did a pretty poor job and that's why if they don't win the championship this year many think he will be fired.

Thanks for saving me some typing Dolfan!

IMHO, Woody couldve done just as well with this Boston team as Doc has done. KG has had more an influence on Perkins, Powe, Big Baby, etc, than Doc.

If anything, Doc is just proving how bad he is as a coach in these playoffs. He is making so many bad moves, its ridiculous.

[frosgrim]

The Boston fan-base hates Doc. He makes a lot of bone-headed decissions. For those of us who rail on Woody, Doc pretty much does the samething. Weird offense, strange substitutions, and reactionary moves. The fact that the C's haven't won on the road is strange- esp not winning against two of the weaker playoff teams in Atlanta and Cleveland. Detroit is going to annihlate Boston in the next round, IMO.

I will pass on Doc.

I want a guy that can play chess. I want a guy that can see the game and other games as part of a continous whole. Larry Brown, Phil Jackson, Jerry Sloan, and Popovich are great examples of guys that coach beyond the current and think longer term in their game-to-game approaches. Reactionary coaches like Rivers, Woodson, and even guys like Doug Collins can't manage a team properly. A HC has to be more strategic in his thinking. Let the assistant coaches do the tactical thinking.

[atlien]

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The Boston fan-base hates Doc. He makes a lot of bone-headed decissions. For those of us who rail on Woody, Doc pretty much does the samething. Weird offense, strange substitutions, and reactionary moves. The fact that the C's haven't won on the road is strange- esp not winning against two of the weaker playoff teams in Atlanta and Cleveland. Detroit is going to annihlate Boston in the next round, IMO.

I will pass on Doc.

I want a guy that can play chess. I want a guy that can see the game and other games as part of a continous whole. Larry Brown, Phil Jackson, Jerry Sloan, and Popovich are great examples of guys that coach beyond the current and think longer term in their game-to-game approaches. Reactionary coaches like Rivers, Woodson, and even guys like Doug Collins can't manage a team properly. A HC has to be more strategic in his thinking. Let the assistant coaches do the tactical thinking.

Very good points. I also think good head coaches have to work matchups to their teams ADVANTAGE. Coaches like Doc and Woody react to what the other team is doing, rather than forcing the advantage in their favor.

The Cs struggling with a team this talented is a very bad reflection on Doc.

[Admin]

Sure, let me know if you need me to type another post for you again LOL.

I understand the sentimental side of wanting guys like Doc and Nique running things but Doc has proven that he is an average coach and I would not let Woody go just to bring in Doc. I shudder to think how good the Celtics could be if they had Phil Jackson coaching them in the triangle.

[Diesel]

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Sure, let me know if you need me to type another post for you again LOL.

I understand the sentimental side of wanting guys like Doc and Nique running things but Doc has proven that he is an average coach and I would not let Woody go just to bring in Doc. I shudder to think how good the Celtics could be if they had Phil Jackson coaching them in the triangle.

Average coach??

Did you miss what Doc did in Orlando with no marquee players? That's not average coaching. That was coaching that got him coach of the year credit. 66 wins is not average coaching? How many coaches can claim 66 wins regardless of what level of talent they have? Did Sloan ever get 66 wins when he had Stockton and Malone?

[Admin]

If he doesn't win the NBA title this year with this great trio of players and a deep bench then this season will mean absolutely nothing.

In his BEST season prior to this one he won 45 games and only 57 the 2 years prior to this season combined. That's Woody territory, which is why I said he is an average coach. Hell you give Woody a 1st ballot HOF player and 2 potential HOF players and a deep bench and see how many wins he would get.

Did you forget that he had T-Mac in Orlando? T-Mac might not be able to get you out of the first round but he can damn near get you into the playoffs on his own.

[AHF]

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Sure, let me know if you need me to type another post for you again LOL.

I understand the sentimental side of wanting guys like Doc and Nique running things but Doc has proven that he is an average coach and I would not let Woody go just to bring in Doc. I shudder to think how good the Celtics could be if they had Phil Jackson coaching them in the triangle.

Average coach??

Did you miss what Doc did in Orlando with no marquee players? That's not average coaching. That was coaching that got him coach of the year credit. 66 wins is not average coaching? How many coaches can claim 66 wins regardless of what level of talent they have? Did Sloan ever get 66 wins when he had Stockton and Malone?

I can't figure Doc out.

He led that amazing nobody team in Orlando to the playoffs (led by Darrell Armstrong and others of his ilk, including a pre-famous Ben Wallace) and at times he seems really good.

At other times he seems clueless. This regular season and post-season are representative of that. He is a hard guy to really put your finger on.

I wouldn't compare him to Woodson because Woodson hasn't overachieved - ever. Although I will say Doc has had more to work with on the whole.

[Admin]

The one thing that Doc has never had, or at least to the extreme degree that Woody has had, is an extremely young team and for as good as Joe is he's no T-Mac and Doc has had him to run his team in Orlando every year but that first year when they did admittedly overachieve by still only won 41 games. That year he didn't have a ton of talent by the players that he did have were at least seasoned vets, for the most part.

In Boston he didn't have a lot other than Pierce who is equal to JJ and Doc still only won 1 more game than Woody over the 2 years prior to this year when he got his NBA Live team.

I'm not praising Woody at all in this thread, simply pointing out that Doc is at best slightly better than Woody and that's nothing to get excited over.

[dlpin]

Actually, I would say he is average AT BEST. Im a celtics fan, and I honestly cant stand the guy.

Bill Simmons often writes a lot of nonsense, but read his latest piece on Doc, which most Cs fan believe was for the most part accurate.

You know how people constantly talk about Tracy McGrady never winning a playoff series? A good chunk of those losses came with Doc.

He's been in Boston for 4 years, and missed the playoffs most of the time, despite having Pierce and other good role players. In 05, we got bounced by a 6th seed indiana team which trounced us at home by 27 points!

Game 4 against atlanta and cleveland have been some of the worst coached games Ive ever seen. It doesnt matter if he won 66 games in the regular season if he does something completely different in the playoffs.

Everything you guys complain about woodson is similar to doc. You guys complain that he benchers Acie as soon as he misses a shot? That is exactly what he did with Rondo last year. You guys complain that he throws out weird rotations in games that matter? Same with him. Heck, they even have almost identical quotes saying something along the lines of "Im a defense guy, our offense will take care of itself."

[Lascar78]

I agree. I have always been thoroughly unimpressed by doc. He is slightly better than woody but that's not saying much. The difference is woody makes mistakes / does things that no other nba coach does. Doc won't screw up that bad but just runs everything by the book. I don't think he makes his teams any better, he just doesn't screw up as much as woody. Boston did waaay better than I expected this year, but I think he lack of quality coaching / adjustments is showing in the playoffs.

I really, REALLY want us to fire woody, but I think we can do far better than doc. Give me silas, van gundy, or just about any of the other options over doc.

[Dsinner]

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I shudder to think how good the Celtics could be if they had Phil Jackson coaching them in the triangle.

You mean like the best record in the NBA? You think Phil could do better than the best?

You guys put waaayyy to much emphasis on 12 or so games against 2, thats right, 2 oponents. For the record, I'd let Woody go for Doc without hesitation.

[Dsinner]

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If he doesn't win the NBA title this year with this great trio of players and a deep bench then this season will mean absolutely nothing.

In his BEST season prior to this one he won 45 games and only 57 the 2 years prior to this season combined. That's Woody territory, which is why I said he is an average coach. Hell you give Woody a 1st ballot HOF player and 2 potential HOF players and a deep bench and see how many wins he would get.

Did you forget that he had T-Mac in Orlando? T-Mac might not be able to get you out of the first round but he can damn near get you into the playoffs on his own.

Deep bench? Going into this season the there were exactly 2 things that people said would hold Boston back even after the trades....Defense and Bench. Those bench players weren't supposed to be worth a damn, and neither was the teams defense. Guess what makes average players good and offensive minded guys play defense? That's right...Coaching.

Jesus, I've been agreeing with Diesel entirely too much lately.

[DrReality]

Doc and Nique have some sort of rif that goes back a ways and for this reason, and others, its unlikely.

[dig]

After our series with the Celtics I've come to realize that Doc is a below average NBA coach... he doesn't exploit matchups like he should and his secondary guys (Rondo, Perkins, etc.) don't have well-defined roles. Rondo could have tooled us every time down and kicked to KG or Pierce or Allen but they let him get in the lane and take it himself... looks good when it works but Rondo took a lot of bad shots, and Doc should have got in his face.

Also, KG was unstoppable... we had no one who could guard him... too fast for Al or Zaza and could step out and shoot over anyone else. He's also a great passer and could have made us pay for help. Still, they didn't go to him consistently. I don't have the stats but Rajon the wonderkid was involved more than him.

Also, why didn't he light a fire under Paul Pierce earlier? Peirce destroyed us in Game 7 but his intensity came and went, unlike KG. And then there's the bench... they have some players in Tony Allen and Leon Powe, but I don't really see a strategy as to how he uses the bench. Anyways, he may be marginally better than Woody but that's not really saying much.

[Admin]

I'm sure their deep bench probably doesn't have anything to do with bringing in PJ Brown and Sam Cassell at the end of the season and James Posey and Eddie House at the beginning.