Marvin Williams Bust or Not

[Zone034life]

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Ohhhh...

The Phantom Injury.

Sorry Northcyde... I watched just about every Hawks game this season. I didn't see any nagging Injury to Marvin. What I did see was a streaky shooter who lacked the desire to do anymore than he was doing.

Put Rudy Gay in Marvin's place. Gay would drive and dunk just about every play he touched the ball. That's because his personality is one of a go getter. Marvin HISTORICALLY has not been a go getter.

He's a guy that says if it comes to me... good, if not... that's OK too. You see that from stories of him letting others finish off games. You see that in his HS team having a losing record. You see that in him being content sitting on the bench at UNC.

If I believed in it, i would say that he was a classic case of type B personality. Whereas most successful pros (iF I believed in it) were type A.

Rudy Gay now thats a future all star SF. Since he plays in Memphis he probably doesn't get the exposure he should. If the Hawks fans seen this guy play they would know what Marvin isn't giving the team. Three point shooting and driving the ball with authority.

Rudy Gay>Marvin

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Rudy Gay is the ish. There's no doubt that he's better than Marvin. Rudy Gay actually has Kobe-like athleticism, but not as skilled as Kobe. But because Gay is vastly better, that still doesn't make Marvin a bad player, like some are trying to make him out to be.

And here's some perspective on the #2 pick. I'll list the last 10 #2 picks. You decide where Marvin ranks amongst this group, and if the other guys are playing at the "star" level that most expect Marvin to be playing at. It may be wise to look up what some of those guys were doing in their 3rd year as well:

- Durant

- Aldridge

- Okafor

- Darko

- Jay Williams ( Duke PG )

- Chandler

- Stromile Swift

- Francis

- Bibby

- Van Horn

Of this group of #2 picks the past 10 years, only Francis was good enough to make an all-star team.

[Chris18]

This Marvin Williams hate is crazy!!! You would think the guy was like Speedy Claxton just siting on the bench not doing anything and collecting a check. He's not Chris Paul or Deron Williams so get over it and the quicker you do the better off you will be.

[Diesel]

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This Marvin Williams hate is crazy!!! You would think the guy was like Speedy Claxton just siting on the bench not doing anything and collecting a check. He's not Chris Paul or Deron Williams so get over it and the quicker you do the better off you will be.

Chris it is not just Chris Paul.

It's everything we gave away for Marvin. Let me help you with this.

When BK took over... he gave away players to start his rebuilding. The rebuilding started with Chillz and Smoove, but we tanked their season too. We traded Walker at the deadline that season for guys who would not play for the Hawks (ending contracts) then we told Al to sit out the rest of the season and had our worst season ever. We tanked our way successfully to the 2nd pick. When we picked Marvin, he represented a player who we would build around. He had to because we had 5 other Sfs on the team when we picked him.

BUT.....

That's not all.

We traded Al Harrington to make room for Marvin to have more playing time.

We made Chillz a 6th man so that Marvin could start full time at Sf.

We move Smoove to PF so that Marvin could play Sf.

Now... with all of that... Marvin is a slightly above average Sf. When you realize what we have given and done so that Marvin could have everything he has... it's kind of disappointing and depressing to see Marvin being on the floor and not making an impact on the game. I can only point to 1 game where Marvin made an impact.

It's not coaching. It's Marvin.

For those people who like Smoove, there's a reason they like Smoove... It's because Smoove works. When Smoove came here, he had a list of shortcomings about a block long. Well, he's worked at them and you can see it.

For those people who like Chillz, there's a reason they like Chillz. It's because Chillz makes himself available to be used. When he's on the floor, he's a guy that will do whatever needs to be done. He defers to others. He goes underneath and fights for rebounds. He brings the ball up. He runs on the break. He runs the break. Etc.

However, when you look at Marvin... What is he doing to make an impact? Nothing.

What is he doing to improve his game? Nothing.

Where is he any different than he was when he came here?? He gets more minutes.

It's equivalent of if you hired a guy from Harvard to work at your company, you pay him big dollars, and all the guys who work around your guy has departments that really kick a--. If you're saling widgets, you have 4 departments that really kick a--. But your Harvard guy's department floats along. That department really doesn't do better than it did when you had a guy from Geogia Southern running it 3 years ago. Now, you've given this guy the choice widgets, you've given him the best secretary, the best office, the best equipment... but this guy is just giving you back average sales numbers. You allow this guy to have his pick of his department members, given him the best expense account but his department is still just giving you back average sales. Now there's another department head. You've given him some stuff, but not the choice stuff. In fact, you've given this guy widgets that don't sell as well. However, this other guy has worked hard. He's going door to door saling widgets. He doesn't even have a secretary. He's doing what other salesmen won't do, he spends his whole day making calls and visits. Even when there's people who you know are not going to buy the widgets, he's out there trying to sale to them too. He keeps himself busy and he sales just as much as the guy you have invested so much in. How do you call it. Do you keep the Harvard grad on in hopes that somehow he will pick up the determination to do better?

[AHF]

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He is a bust only in terms of draft position and who the Hawks passed up to take him. He is a decent enough player but so far has not been a difference maker, and that is what you want from a #2 pick.

In two short lines, this about sums it up for me.

[mattlanta]

What do they say about rookies in most professional sports? Wait 3 years and then evaluate them, right?

[Chris18]

Diesel, I remember the 2004-2005 season because it was my first season as a Hawks fan. It was a little weird because even though we only won 13 games I was always excited to see those guys play. When we got the 2nd pick in the draft I was disappointed becuase we didn't get Bogut(glad we didn't though) but Marvin was the player I wanted after that. We didn't have 5 Sfs on the team when Marvin came though. Childress was a sg, Smoove didn't really have a position, Diaw was a pg and Al was a pf.

BUT...

Al Harrington was traded to make room for Smoove to play the 4.

Chillz was the 6th man because he plays better off the bench then as a starter.

Smoove was moved to the 4 because he is not able to play the 3 effectively.

Marvin has had to work for everything that he has, just like everyone else on our team. I agree that Marvin needs to work on his game this offseason by developing a 3 point shot and work on driving the ball to the hoop.

[AHF]

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What do they say about rookies in most professional sports? Wait 3 years and then evaluate them, right?

You may be agreeing with me but I can't tell. In either case, it has been 3 years. I don't rule out significant improvement from this point but don't discount what we have seen so far, either.

[TruJerz]

Marvin is not a bust..he just should of never been taken over Paul or Deron Williams thats it-point blank period. he has potential to be a good and valuable player in this league even though he is our 5th option. he is only 21 yrs old!!!! Is he tradable?? yes because players like Marvin come to this league every year but he is not a bust-look at the stats..alot of 2nd picks overall didnt average that in their 3rd season and they werent considered to be a bust. Bogut is not even a bust but he should of been taken after Deron Paul and Marvin. Hawks messed up because they needed a PG and still chose Marvin

[exodus]

Remember how much Walter was hyping Bargnani? Raps fans aren't too impressed with him.

[AHF]

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Remember how much Walter was hyping Bargnani? Raps fans aren't too impressed with him.

It is pretty tough to distinguish between Marvin and Bargnani's numbers at this point.

[exodus]

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Remember how much Walter was hyping Bargnani? Raps fans aren't too impressed with him.

It is pretty tough to distinguish between Marvin and Bargnani's numbers at this point.

A 7 footer shooting 38.6% on the season and gets to the line twice a game is pretty easy to distinguish from Marvin. Bargnani's PER of 10.7 is well below Marvins rookie PER of 12.2.

[Diesel]

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BUT...

Al Harrington was traded to make room for Smoove to play the 4.

Chillz was the 6th man because he plays better off the bench then as a starter.

Smoove was moved to the 4 because he is not able to play the 3 effectively.

Marvin has had to work for everything that he has, just like everyone else on our team. I agree that Marvin needs to work on his game this offseason by developing a 3 point shot and work on driving the ball to the hoop.

My young Hawks fan, we're going to have to teach you to understand moves.

While Al was here, Al played Pf and Smoove played SF.

In fact, Smoove played 32 mpg.

Well, now Smoove only plays 35.5 mpg.

at the time Marvin only played 24.6 mpg.

He moved on to playing 34.0 and 34.6 mpg for the next 2 years.

You see Chris, the truth is that Al wasn't moved so that Smoove would get more playing time. Smoove only jumped 3 mpg. It was so that Marvin could see the court more.

Moreover, Al wasn't moved so that Smoove could play PF.

With Al, it was all in a name. Al is a better Sf than PF. He played at PF because he has a very mature post game. However, Al hit 153 3 pters this year at a 37% clip. That compares to JJ (169)... in terms of number of 3 pters...

So Al wasn't moved so that Smoove could play PF.

The only reason Al was moved was so that Marvin could play more minutes. Which he has.

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Marvin has had to work for everything that he has, just like everyone else on our team.

Chris Chris Chris.... Don't be blinded by your fandom. Since Marvin has been here, Chillz has been a better Sf than Marvin... Period. Why is Marvin starting if he has to work hard for everything he has?

The truth is Marvin's potential has him on the court and that's potential that Marvin is NOT working hard on.

[Chris18]

I agree that Al was a better sf than pf on offense but he was still hindering Smoove's development. Having Al here made Smoove play a position he was unable to play when he came into the leauge. If Al wasn't traded we would have never gotten to see Smoove's true potential.

The reason that I said Marvin has to work hard for his spot is becuase in any professional sport you have to out work the next guy or you'll be out of a job regardless of how talented you are. Diesel we both agree that Marvin has a lot of work to do this summer to improve his game.

[Zone034life]

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Rudy Gay is the ish. There's no doubt that he's better than Marvin. Rudy Gay actually has Kobe-like athleticism, but not as skilled as Kobe. But because Gay is vastly better, that still doesn't make Marvin a bad player, like some are trying to make him out to be.

And here's some perspective on the #2 pick. I'll list the last 10 #2 picks. You decide where Marvin ranks amongst this group, and if the other guys are playing at the "star" level that most expect Marvin to be playing at. It may be wise to look up what some of those guys were doing in their 3rd year as well:

- Durant

- Aldridge

- Okafor

- Darko

- Jay Williams ( Duke PG )

- Chandler

- Stromile Swift

- Francis

- Bibby

- Van Horn

Of this group of #2 picks the past 10 years, only Francis was good enough to make an all-star team.

That is a very good post sir. Marvin isn't as bad as alot of them but what I want to know is is he going to become one of them. That will be answered by Marvins desire to work hard on his game. Like Jordan said in his commercial " Maybe its my fault. Maybe I gave you the illusion that I din't work hard(that maybe not word for word but you get what he was trying to say)." Marvin physically can put up the numbers he has so far in the NBA but he has to work on his body and game to become a true difference maker for this team.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

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That is a very good post sir. Marvin isn't as bad as alot of them but what I want to know is is he going to become one of them. That will be answered by Marvins desire to work hard on his game. Like Jordan said in his commercial " Maybe its my fault. Maybe I gave you the illusion that I din't work hard(that maybe not word for word but you get what he was trying to say)." Marvin physically can put up the numbers he has so far in the NBA but he has to work on his body and game to become a true difference maker for this team.

I think Marvin could very well have a career that parallels Keith Van Horn's, although Van Horn was better in his first 3 years. I think the only way Marvin becomes an all-star at this point, is if he's forced into a go-to guy role, via an injury to JJ and/or Smoove.

Marvin is a team player that doesn't seek his own personal glory or accolades, over what's good for the team. Right now, he's content with being a very good complimentary player. He plays it safe and is not a risk taker. Smoove is the exact opposite. He actually wants to be "the guy", even if it means doing things he doesn't do well, that might hurt the team. The fan base likes that, until he does something that makes you cuss.

Still, Marvin is improving and is on track to being a very good starter as early as next year. He was right there in the 1st half of the season. He's nowhere near a player that is in decline or has peaked, although many on this site want to believe that. He actually finished going to the hole a lot better this year, and drew a lot more fouls. His man defense improved this year as well.

But he may not be that star player that we'd hoped he'd be. But he might be a great complimentary player that can be very effective alongside a star player.

In a lot of ways, Van Horn was ridiculed in the same ways that Marvin is now. Those Jersey fans expected him to be the next Bird. When he didn't live up to that promise, they attacked him relentlessly, even when he played well.

[AHF]

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Remember how much Walter was hyping Bargnani? Raps fans aren't too impressed with him.

It is pretty tough to distinguish between Marvin and Bargnani's numbers at this point.

A 7 footer shooting 38.6% on the season and gets to the line twice a game is pretty easy to distinguish from Marvin. Bargnani's PER of 10.7 is well below Marvins rookie PER of 12.2.

Marvin has an edge but it isn't all that much of one at this point, IMO. Bargnani's rookie PER of 12.85 is better than either of Marvin's first two seasons. His rookie TS% is basically the same as Marvin's career high.

I wouldn't trade Marvin for Bargnani but the difference between their impact is not very all that large at this point, IMO.

[Joker]

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Remember how much Walter was hyping Bargnani? Raps fans aren't too impressed with him.

It is pretty tough to distinguish between Marvin and Bargnani's numbers at this point.

A 7 footer shooting 38.6% on the season and gets to the line twice a game is pretty easy to distinguish from Marvin. Bargnani's PER of 10.7 is well below Marvins rookie PER of 12.2.

Marvin has an edge but it isn't all that much of one at this point, IMO. Bargnani's rookie PER of 12.85 is better than either of Marvin's first two seasons. His rookie TS% is basically the same as Marvin's career high.

I wouldn't trade Marvin for Bargnani but the difference between their impact is not very all that large at this point, IMO.

Watching Bargs play he is not as good as Marvin or close right now. But he has potenial to be one of the best players in the game. Dirk like, he has star qualities but the NBA is too much for right now, he probably will be going to summer league and will play really well there.

As for Gay, he's a monster, no one at that position has more potenial, the only person I see bring better in that position in the future is Lebron James, and has room were he can catch up. All I got to say is I told all you Josh Smith fans that Gay was ALWAYS better then Smoove. He was as a Freshman at UCONN and Smith was a rookie in the league.

[Zone034life]

Smoove and Gay are two totally different types of players. Smoove is better around the basket and Gay is mainly an offensive threat. Smoove couldn't dream of being as good on the perimeter as Gay. Just like Gay couldn't dream of blocking shots the way Smoove does(although he is good at it as well). The better comparison would be for the guys who play the same position, Rudy and Marvin.

[Joker]

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Smoove and Gay are two totally different types of players. Smoove is better around the basket and Gay is mainly an offensive threat. Smoove couldn't dream of being as good on the perimeter as Gay. Just like Gay couldn't dream of blocking shots the way Smoove does(although he is good at it as well). The better comparison would be for the guys who play the same position, Rudy and Marvin.

Rudy Gay is much better around the basket...That wouldn't be the first thing I would have said. I would have said Smith a better athlete then Gay if I was making the argurment for Smith. Gay a great shot blocker for a SF. He's no J. Smith but but he isn't a PF or C either. Rudy much better then Marvin.