Can Woody Win Enough Games Next Year To Justify

[JackB1]

I am thinking that Sund spoke to all the players and got a feel for what they thought of Woodson. If the majority weren't happy with him, I don't think he would have resigned him, so the players must want Woodson back.....We know JJ did.

[AHF]

Quote:

---

I am thinking that Sund spoke to all the players and got a feel for what they thought of Woodson. If the majority weren't happy with him, I don't think he would have resigned him, so the players must want Woodson back.....We know JJ did.

That must have been a pretty interesting discussion between Sund and the players. I wonder how you respond as a player if you don't like Woodson but have already heard Michael Gearon publically endorse him coming back. It is a little bit like being asked to evaluate your boss.

[KB21]

Rick said that he doesn't consult players on coaching decisions, draft moves, trades, or free agent signings.

I think retaining Mike Woodson comes down to this. First, the financial commitment isn't there to pay a guy like Flip Saunders, Avery Johnson, or Mike Fratello what it would take to get them. Second, when it comes down to it, it makes very little sense to get rid of Mike Woodson only to hire another first time head coach.

Two years, though, isn't a strong commitment to the coach. That's the one thing I don't like about this. Don't feed me a line about believing in him because his teams improved in each year and then give him only a two year deal. It's obvious that this is still an evaluation, and they see it better to continue the evaluation on Mike Woodson than to start anew with some assistant that hasn't been a head coach before.

It won't suprise me to see a change made if the February 2009 court day goes the way the ASG wants it to go.

[Traceman]

We all have opinions about how good or bad Woody does the things you listed but wins and losses are an OBJECTIVE measure of Woody's success. Honestly, if he were TERRIBLE at all of the things you listed, I don't see how we would have had ANY success last year.

Based on what you are saying, we could win the championship next year and you would STILL say that bringing Woody back was a mistake. I can see it now. If we win it all in 6 games, you will say that if we had a REAL coach, it would have been a sweep!

[bronnt]

Agreed...I'm as harsh a critic as anyone, but if we get to 50 wins I will absolutely praise the job done by all. Not that I won't complain occasionally-Celtics fans were all over Rivers-but I wouldn't be calling for his head. The implications of winning 50 games means that we're probably getting consistent effort in road games, that our bench is used effectively, and that some important players show marked improvements (Smoove, Marvin, Acie, Zaza). I'm assuming that's what it would take to win 50, so all my main talking points would be stolen from me.

Let me qualify this by saying: We will win not win 50 games. Probably not even close. Barring some kind of mega blockbuster trade, the hard cap for victories next year is 45. We won't get any higher than that, and probably won't reach it.

[bronnt]

Quote:

---

Rick said that he doesn't consult players on coaching decisions, draft moves, trades, or free agent signings.

I think retaining Mike Woodson comes down to this. First, the financial commitment isn't there to pay a guy like Flip Saunders, Avery Johnson, or Mike Fratello what it would take to get them. Second, when it comes down to it, it makes very little sense to get rid of Mike Woodson only to hire another first time head coach.

Two years, though, isn't a strong commitment to the coach. That's the one thing I don't like about this. Don't feed me a line about believing in him because his teams improved in each year and then give him only a two year deal. It's obvious that this is still an evaluation, and they see it better to continue the evaluation on Mike Woodson than to start anew with some assistant that hasn't been a head coach before.

It won't suprise me to see a change made if the February 2009 court day goes the way the ASG wants it to go.

I can't even begin to believe that a guy has 4 years of head coaching experience with the same team, and that he's going to get a two year TRIAL PERIOD. The fact is, with the signing of Woodson, this team has to win as it's constructed now WITH WOODSON, or we'll be rebuilding all over again. It won't be as dramatic as the last rebuilding process, but we'll see big contracts traded out because a bad team won't generate the revenue to appease the ownership.

Basically, if we don't have at least a winning record in the next two years, JJ will end up traded, Zaza and Marvin will leave as free agents, and one of the Josh's could end up traded as well. This whole rebuilding process has to culminate now or it will be deemed a failure, and we've wasted five years of the franchise. With that in mind, you can't have a "trial period" for a head coach-everything is hinging upon the immediate future of the team.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Great thread Trace. I'll make sure to add this thread to my favorites list. And I'll make sure people remember this thread in April when they start complaining about Woody, even if we have 43 wins.

I'll go on record to say that none of the people who are saying that they'll be satisfied with 42 - 44 wins, will be happy. They'll say that we should've won 50 games.

It's a lose - lose situation for Woody, unless he does one thing . .

Get us to the 2nd round of the playoffs.

If we win 40 - 45 games in a normal year, we're talking about a 6, 7 or 8 seed in the playoffs. That increases our chances of getting bumped out in the 1st round. And that won't sit well with the vast majority of the fan base, even if we do win 45 games.

Why?

Because teams are eventually judged by what they do in the playoffs, not the regular season.

That's why Denver fans and possibly its management are remotely thinking about moving a great talent like Melo. When you get swept out of the playoffs like they did, despite winning 50 games, it leaves a horrible taste in your mouth.

That's why NOBODY cares about that 22-game win streak that Houston went on. They lose on round 1, and everybody wonders what happened?

That's why Toronto needs to make a big time decision on Calderon and possibly the coach and other players surrounding Bosh. They get bounced in round 1 again.

That's why Phoenix goes into full panic mode with the Marion trade and the D'Antoni firing. They made the Marion for Shaq move, specifically to beat the Spurs. So they get the Spurs in the playoffs, and they STILL lose, even though the Shaq-led Phoenix team was 2 - 0 in the regular season vs the Spurs and was just a few games from being the #1 seed in the West.

No matter how many games the Hawks win, the expectation from the fan base will be for them to get to Round 2. 37 wins or 57 wins, if we don't get to Round 2, people will scream for Woody's head.

(( barring a major injury to JJ or Smith, or a rash of injuries happening at the same time . . ))

sub 40 wins: Bad move - unless we win our 1st round playoff series. Sub 40 probably means that we missed the playoffs.

40 - 43 wins: acceptable - but we have to make the playoffs and at least take the series to 6 or 7 games. And don't get destroyed on the road in every game.

44 - 47 wins: Good move - If we're the #6 seed, and the #3 seed doesn't have a record more than 5 games better than us, I fully expect either a 7 game war in Round 1 in which we lose or win.

48+ wins: Great move - but the validation for it to be great needs to come with moving on to Round 2. If we lose to a lower seeded team that many have us favored to beat, it will feel worse than wnning 41 games, but battling and losing to a higher seed.

[EazyRoc]

Quote:

---

I wouldn't count on the East being stronger. We thought that coming into this season, just as we do every year at this time.

I think the East will be stronger. Teams like Toronto, Orlando, and Philly are only going to get better. Chicago is a few moves away from being a whole lot better than last year. Not to mention that the Heat could make some solid moves this year and be a contender as well. Charlotte is another team that is a few good moves away from being a very solid team. Speaking of Charlotte, what's going on with Adam Morrison ?

[Dsinner]

Quote:

---

the Hawks bringing him back? I'm just curious if there is ANYTHING that he can do to satisfy this group. Something tells me that if we win 50 next year, many here will be saying we would have won 60 with a real coach.

In my opinion, if we win 50 or more next year, bringing Woody back was a GREAT decision. If we win between 45-49, it was a good decision. If we win 43-44, it was an okay decision. If we win 42 or less, it was a bad decision.

So is there a number that Woody can win that any of you will admit that bringing him back was a good decision? This should be interesting.

A winning record and I'll admit I was wrong (and be VERY happy to do so).

[Dsinner]

Quote:

---

How can you possibly say that a team that wins 50 games (a 13 game improvement no less) has been held back by their coach??

Probably the same way some of you didn't want Avery, D'Antoni and other 50 win coaches ahead of Woody. What's the difference?

[Dsinner]

Quote:

---

Woody better have this team playing above 500 or he needs to be fired period. This guy has had 4 yrs to put it together and now 1 to 2 more yrs depending how he does. The players probably wanted him back so they can play like they are now one on one matchups and not have anyone crack the whip at the them.

This will be the year the players need to wake up or there needs to be significant player movement to get better none of this wait till they mature crap. If we see the same blundering mistakes by Woody and players not performing again they'll have no excuse to fall back on. Oh except that get one more easy year before they move on meanwhile the fan is stuck with another year wasted and a new crew to come in.

Another reason these players want him back is because they are young. They are not accustomed to leader changes. Most are from good school (HS and NCAA) programs that have had the same coach for a loooong time. If this team was full of Vets you can bet they would have been in Sunds ear.

[Dsinner]

Quote:

---

Great thread Trace. I'll make sure to add this thread to my favorites list. And I'll make sure people remember this thread in April when they start complaining about Woody, even if we have 43 wins.

I'll go on record to say that none of the people who are saying that they'll be satisfied with 42 - 44 wins, will be happy. They'll say that we should've won 50 games.

It's a lose - lose situation for Woody, unless he does one thing . .

Get us to the 2nd round of the playoffs.

If we win 40 - 45 games in a normal year, we're talking about a 6, 7 or 8 seed in the playoffs. That increases our chances of getting bumped out in the 1st round. And that won't sit well with the vast majority of the fan base, even if we do win 45 games.

Why?

Because teams are eventually judged by what they do in the playoffs, not the regular season.

That's why Denver fans and possibly its management are remotely thinking about moving a great talent like Melo. When you get swept out of the playoffs like they did, despite winning 50 games, it leaves a horrible taste in your mouth.

That's why NOBODY cares about that 22-game win streak that Houston went on. They lose on round 1, and everybody wonders what happened?

That's why Toronto needs to make a big time decision on Calderon and possibly the coach and other players surrounding Bosh. They get bounced in round 1 again.

That's why Phoenix goes into full panic mode with the Marion trade and the D'Antoni firing. They made the Marion for Shaq move, specifically to beat the Spurs. So they get the Spurs in the playoffs, and they STILL lose, even though the Shaq-led Phoenix team was 2 - 0 in the regular season vs the Spurs and was just a few games from being the #1 seed in the West.

No matter how many games the Hawks win, the expectation from the fan base will be for them to get to Round 2. 37 wins or 57 wins, if we don't get to Round 2, people will scream for Woody's head.

(( barring a major injury to JJ or Smith, or a rash of injuries happening at the same time . . ))

sub 40 wins: Bad move - unless we win our 1st round playoff series. Sub 40 probably means that we missed the playoffs.

40 - 43 wins: acceptable - but we have to make the playoffs and at least take the series to 6 or 7 games. And don't get destroyed on the road in every game.

44 - 47 wins: Good move - If we're the #6 seed, and the #3 seed doesn't have a record more than 5 games better than us, I fully expect either a 7 game war in Round 1 in which we lose or win.

48+ wins: Great move - but the validation for it to be great needs to come with moving on to Round 2. If we lose to a lower seeded team that many have us favored to beat, it will feel worse than wnning 41 games, but battling and losing to a higher seed.

Are you out of your mind? Of course he has to get to the 2nd round. A professional NBA coach in his 5th year should have that responsibility. You expect him to get us to where we've been at? Below .500? I'm sorry...below .400? What is wrong with holding a coach to that level? Are you related to Woody? Are you afraid we're going to hurt his feelings if we don't reach the playoffs and we fire him? Raise your expectations bro.

Stop comparing what we "accomplished" with any other team that got beat in the playoffs. It's not even close to the same "taste". We won 37 games. THAT is what left a bad taste in my mouth, not getting beat by Boston. Problem is you Woody supporters seem to only remember the Boston series (and not doing a very good job at that I might add) vs the rest of the 4 years.

[Zone034life]

We'll all know far before the end of the season whether or not Woody being hired was the right decision by:

Is he making in game adjustments?

Player rotation?

Plays out of timeout?

Development of bench?

Are the players responsive?

These questions will be answered early in the season next year. If he hasn't changed at the beggining of next season what makes anyone believe he ever will. Its up to him to get the most out of every player on the roster. Not just milk JJ at the end of every game and pray for a victory.

[Dexmethylphenidate]

The bench will still be undeveloped since he'll probably play 7 players with consistent minutes again, because he knows his job is on the line much like this season.

I'm just looking for him to correct (that mean abandon) his idiotic 2-foul rule in the first half (and 3 foul rule in the 3rd quarter); this isn't college basketball... NBA players have 6, not 5 fouls. And also looking for him to play the bench over the veterans if the vet don't play at a high level... it doesn't hurt to sit Childress or Zaza or Bibby or any starters when they playing like trash and get in Acie, Solo and Mario or J-Rich... especially during a blowout (coaching 101: this mean the starters or his bench cronies are playing like trash).

The team is good enough to win on talent alone... I'm hoping the coach doesn't screw it up by coaching like a dumbass.

[Joker]

I really don't understand this contract, why would someone sign a two year contract. That give you just as much security as you had with the one year deal. It makes him coach under stress once again meaning that players will not be as delevoped. Which in result basically means the same result as this season. Woody is a average coach, but under this srcunity he isn't getting better either. Senseless to me, utterly senseless.

[Traceman]

He can do everything you listed below and if we are not winning, it won't mean anything.

[Zone034life]

Quote:

---

He can do everything you listed below and if we are not winning, it won't mean anything.

U are 100% correct. I was just trying to state what he needed to work on to become more successful. I hope Woody has a turn around,maybe it won't be as extensive, like Doc Rivers. I just don't have any faith in the man. You ever wanted your team to do well but just knew there was something holding it back? That can be a big contract guy(Speedy) an ownership situation(ASG) or young players without experience(Smoove,Marvin,etc). But at least you could have a leader who knows how to get the most out of what he has in a roster. Woody has not and will not learn that.

Woody needs help in the form of veteran players who already know the ends and outs of the game. He didn't play his bench like Phil Jackson in L.A did during the season. Thats why he was so excited to get Bibby because it took pressure off of him actually havin to develop Acie Law. He had an excuse to let him sit on the bench. Also it was paramount that the Hawks got Al Horford in the draft. NBA ready is exactly what Woody needed in a rookie. He didnt have to teach him much and he already was strong physically and mentally. Coaching is more than X's and O's(although he is horrible at that as well). You also have to know when to motivate, when to ride a player and when to back off. These are things Woody just doesn't seem to comprehend.

[bronnt]

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

He can do everything you listed below and if we are not winning, it won't mean anything.

U are 100% correct. I was just trying to state what he needed to work on to become more successful. I hope Woody has a turn around,maybe it won't be as extensive, like Doc Rivers. I just don't have any faith in the man. You ever wanted your team to do well but just knew there was something holding it back? That can be a big contract guy(Speedy) an ownership situation(ASG) or young players without experience(Smoove,Marvin,etc). But at least you could have a leader who knows how to get the most out of what he has in a roster. Woody has not and will not learn that.

Woody needs help in the form of veteran players who already know the ends and outs of the game. He didn't play his bench like Phil Jackson in L.A did during the season. Thats why he was so excited to get Bibby because it took pressure off of him actually havin to develop Acie Law. He had an excuse to let him sit on the bench. Also it was paramount that the Hawks got Al Horford in the draft. NBA ready is exactly what Woody needed in a rookie. He didnt have to teach him much and he already was strong physically and mentally. Coaching is more than X's and O's(although he is horrible at that as well). You also have to know when to motivate, when to ride a player and when to back off. These are things Woody just doesn't seem to comprehend.

That's a pretty good post. You basically nailed all the major issues.

The big issue this offseason was about more than Woody, for once. Even if you believe he's at least average for an NBA coach-and he's not-you had three guys available in D'Antoni, Avery Johnson, and Flip Saunders who are all ahead of the curve, and with Woody's contract expiring, there's no reason we shouldn't have upgraded.

This isn't a championship roster, but I think it has to be better than we've seen from it thus far.