Mike Vick to play football in '09?

[Diesel]

No, it's not JUST dog fighting. It's when he went out and personally and supported killed them in horrific ways.

Understand that Vick was the money behind a dogfighting ring. He didn't personally handle the dogs from day to day. He probably has killed a dog or 2 in his lifetime, but not as the money. He got a raw deal because the guys who were doing the day to day maintaining of the dogs were the ones who got off for giving up Vick.

Secondly, there's no true reason why dogs should have a higher place in the world than any other animal. Believe it or not some cultures hunt and eat dogs. That doesn't make what Vick did right, but if you consider that a dog is an animal and not human you have to start to really look at the penalties were discussing here. Palin gets praised for hunt and field dressing an Elk while Vick gets 2 years for dog fighting. It would be better for me if you just said that Vick gets sentenced because he lied.

Now, your thought is "Diesel you must hate dogs". No. I love dogs. However, for me I have no fictionalized belief that a dog is any better than any other animal. Nobody here who is so satisfied about the Vick verdict and hates Vick because of what he did to dogs is willing to join up with PETA... so stop the hypocrisy. If I pit bull rushes into my back yard and threatens my child, then I will shot him....dead. Am I wrong for that?

[Admin]

I'm betting he will be a Raider.

Why? They already have a much younger and more well rounded player with a massive contract and no major baggage.

[Swish]

Understand that Vick was the money behind a dogfighting ring. He didn't personally handle the dogs from day to day. He probably has killed a dog or 2 in his lifetime, but not as the money. He got a raw deal because the guys who were doing the day to day maintaining of the dogs were the ones who got off for giving up Vick.

Secondly, there's no true reason why dogs should have a higher place in the world than any other animal. Believe it or not some cultures hunt and eat dogs. That doesn't make what Vick did right, but if you consider that a dog is an animal and not human you have to start to really look at the penalties were discussing here. Palin gets praised for hunt and field dressing an Elk while Vick gets 2 years for dog fighting. It would be better for me if you just said that Vick gets sentenced because he lied.

Now, your thought is "Diesel you must hate dogs". No. I love dogs. However, for me I have no fictionalized belief that a dog is any better than any other animal. Nobody here who is so satisfied about the Vick verdict and hates Vick because of what he did to dogs is willing to join up with PETA... so stop the hypocrisy. If I pit bull rushes into my back yard and threatens my child, then I will shot him....dead. Am I wrong for that?

I agree that perhaps Vick got a raw deal, but I also think he should definitely be in jail--there is no discussing what he did was wrong, I do think that some people have overblown it though. However, hunting, Diesel, is completely different than dog fighting. Hunting is legalized and in most cases has a purpose--putting food on the table.

PETA is not the greatest organization, we know that. I would never begin to support them because I think we give animals too much attention. They're not humans. Lets move on.

And in relation to what Diesel said about dog/his child, my family are farmers in rural TN....if a dog even threatens the livestock--they blow it up--why? If they lose an investment, they lose time, money, and sweat equity. Its simple and people need to stop b*tching about little things when our economy is upside down, etc.

[Admin]

Understand that Vick was the money behind a dogfighting ring. He didn't personally handle the dogs from day to day. He probably has killed a dog or 2 in his lifetime, but not as the money. He got a raw deal because the guys who were doing the day to day maintaining of the dogs were the ones who got off for giving up Vick.

A raw deal? He's going to serve a year and a half in a white collar prison where he's probably treated like a God. I don't know what the others received but let's not act like Vick is locked up at Alcatraz or something. Perhaps he should have considered being honest from the beginning instead of lying about it, don't you think?

Secondly, there's no true reason why dogs should have a higher place in the world than any other animal. Believe it or not some cultures hunt and eat dogs. That doesn't make what Vick did right, but if you consider that a dog is an animal and not human you have to start to really look at the penalties were discussing here. Palin gets praised for hunt and field dressing an Elk while Vick gets 2 years for dog fighting. It would be better for me if you just said that Vick gets sentenced because he lied.

I'd feel the same way if he had brutally murdered any animal just for the hell of it. I know that you're smart enough to see the difference between killing just because you want to hurt a living creature and hunting for food, right?

Now, your thought is "Diesel you must hate dogs". No. I love dogs. However, for me I have no fictionalized belief that a dog is any better than any other animal. Nobody here who is so satisfied about the Vick verdict and hates Vick because of what he did to dogs is willing to join up with PETA... so stop the hypocrisy. If I pit bull rushes into my back yard and threatens my child, then I will shot him....dead. Am I wrong for that?

It's not about dogs, it's about the way he brutally murdered (and supported them as well) the dogs. As I said before it could have been any animal, it just happened to be dogs and like it or not dogs are considered part of the family for millions of Americans.

Of course you're not wrong for killing a dog if they are trying to hurt your child. If you walked out into the back yard and a dog was just laying there and you walked up to it and strangled it to death just for kicks then hell yeah you'd be wrong.

[PureGreatness]

listen, all im trying to say is that vick did wrong but he should get a 2nd chance. you can hate him or love him it doesnt matter. if he comes back to the nfl then...he just comes back. i have forgiven vick for the dog fighting. is it wrong to dog fight HELL YES.

Does it really matter what animal killed? killing animals is killing animals. It doesnt matter if its hunting(dont give me the "populaion argument"), killing cows to make hamburgers or whatever.

Vick should get a 2nd chance in the nfl. thats all im trying to say. You can bitch about it till you blue in the face but thats my stance.

[Diesel]

A raw deal? He's going to serve a year and a half in a white collar prison where he's probably treated like a God. I don't know what the others received but let's not act like Vick is locked up at Alcatraz or something. Perhaps he should have considered being honest from the beginning instead of lying about it, don't you think?

No. He's going been in prison, where all of his freedoms were taken away and he probably was raped because he was a star. Regardless of how you want to paint it, going to prison is never pretty. Especially when you lose ages 28, 29, and 30... there and you're a football player whoose main advantage over everybody else is speed and athletic ability.

I'd feel the same way if he had brutally murdered any animal just for the hell of it. I know that you're smart enough to see the difference between killing just because you want to hurt a living creature and hunting for food, right?

Not every hunter hunts for food. Many hunters and fishermen hunt for sport. You do know what a taxidermist does right?

It's not about dogs, it's about the way he brutally murdered (and supported them as well) the dogs. As I said before it could have been any animal, it just happened to be dogs and like it or not dogs are considered part of the family for millions of Americans.

What you're saying may be true for you but it's not true for this society. I would even question if it were true for you. If there were a rat or a snake in your home, you're telling me that you would find a live saving end for the situation or would you do like the rest of us and set out traps and poison?

Point 2. Whenever woodlands are torn down to make either roads, highways or buildings, do you have any idea of how many animals are "murdered"? deruralization of any 1 mile region of land makes what Vick did look like child's play. But nobody ever questions the government or private corporation for these killings. The reason why is simple.. It's business.

Of course you're not wrong for killing a dog if they are trying to hurt your child. If you walked out into the back yard and a dog was just laying there and you walked up to it and strangled it to death just for kicks then hell yeah you'd be wrong.

The rat and the snake my friend.

One other thing. I don't think Vick killed dogs just for kicks. I think in those fights the dogs are mortally wounded. In incidents where Vick killed the dogs, I think the correct term is "putting them out of their misery".

[Admin]

No. He's going been in prison, where all of his freedoms were taken away and he probably was raped because he was a star. Regardless of how you want to paint it, going to prison is never pretty. Especially when you lose ages 28, 29, and 30... there and you're a football player whoose main advantage over everybody else is speed and athletic ability.

You honestly believe that Michael Vick has been raped in prison? First, he's not in a super max facility or something like that with murders and rapists and what not. Second, with the money (and probably influence) that he has don't you think that he has guys kissing his ass left and right in there? Yes it sucks for him that he's losing some of the prime years of his life, but he is solely to blame for it. Do you disagree with that?

Not every hunter hunts for food. Many hunters and fishermen hunt for sport. You do know what a taxidermist does right?

Yes I'm quite familiar with what a taxidermist does, are you aware that a lot of their business is stuffing the heads of deer/elk/etc that were killed for meat? I'm not a fan of people that put up those things as trophies, but as long as someone actually eats their kill then they can do whatever they want with what's left over for all I really care.

What you're saying may be true for you but it's not true for this society. I would even question if it were true for you. If there were a rat or a snake in your home, you're telling me that you would find a live saving end for the situation or would you do like the rest of us and set out traps and poison?

Feel free to question all that you'd like but I never have and never will kill an animal just for kicks. I've killed snakes for safety before and I've killed deer and birds for food but that's it. I've never had rats before but I would most likely try the humane ones before the common rat trap.

Point 2. Whenever woodlands are torn down to make either roads, highways or buildings, do you have any idea of how many animals are "murdered"? deruralization of any 1 mile region of land makes what Vick did look like child's play. But nobody ever questions the government or private corporation for these killings. The reason why is simple.. It's business.

I'm not saying that much of the animals that are killed for reasons like that or for hamburgers or whatever is right, but generally speaking they try and find the quickest way of killing them. If they wanted they could cut a cows head off with a chainsaw, but it would be really screwed up and they'd get a ton of bad press and probably be persecuted [by the public at least] for it.

One other thing. I don't think Vick killed dogs just for kicks. I think in those fights the dogs are mortally wounded. In incidents where Vick killed the dogs, I think the correct term is "putting them out of their misery".

No he wasn't "putting them out of their misery". It was dogs that he felt didn't measure up, they weren't injured or anything of the like. They just weren't great fighters so he had to go and find some of the most horrific ways he could think of to kill them. I'm sorry but you have to be a sick f*ck to hold a dogs head under water until it drowns.

[Dsinner]

A raw deal? He's going to serve a year and a half in a white collar prison where he's probably treated like a God. I don't know what the others received but let's not act like Vick is locked up at Alcatraz or something. Perhaps he should have considered being honest from the beginning instead of lying about it, don't you think?

I'd feel the same way if he had brutally murdered any animal just for the hell of it. I know that you're smart enough to see the difference between killing just because you want to hurt a living creature and hunting for food, right?

It's not about dogs, it's about the way he brutally murdered (and supported them as well) the dogs. As I said before it could have been any animal, it just happened to be dogs and like it or not dogs are considered part of the family for millions of Americans.

Of course you're not wrong for killing a dog if they are trying to hurt your child. If you walked out into the back yard and a dog was just laying there and you walked up to it and strangled it to death just for kicks then hell yeah you'd be wrong.

It's obvious enough for me Dolf. I don't understand why people can't grasp it. I guess it takes a certain type of person to sympathize with someone who can choke an animal to death and not even blink. I mean, you do realize these types of people are whom the leading role in psycho thriller movies are written for? Surley you see this connection? It's one thing to want to defend a person, but it's a whole other ball-game to ignore reality to do so.

[Admin]

It's obvious enough for me Dolf. I don't understand why people can't grasp it. I guess it takes a certain type of person to sympathize with someone who can choke an animal to death and not even blink. I mean, you do realize these types of people are whom the leading role in psycho thriller movies are written for? Surley you see this connection? It's one thing to want to defend a person, but it's a whole other ball-game to ignore reality to do so.

Yep I certainly agree and I'm blown away by how some are so forgiving of him. I think part of that is because there are a lot of Falcons fans here who still have nostalgic feelings for him because outside of this place I never hear anyone talking about forgiving him and wanting him back in the NFL.

[Dsinner]

No. He's going been in prison, where all of his freedoms were taken away and he probably was raped because he was a star. Regardless of how you want to paint it, going to prison is never pretty. Especially when you lose ages 28, 29, and 30... there and you're a football player whoose main advantage over everybody else is speed and athletic ability.

Like I said, ignoring reality to defend someone. Surely you're not this stupid. I agree in that he's paid is debt to society (well he still owes a few mill to some) based on what he did. However, he is still a person with a LOT of emotional problems.

Not every hunter hunts for food. Many hunters and fishermen hunt for sport. You do know what a taxidermist does right?

I agree with this from my own personal standpoint, but if we're basing this argument on whether or not M. Vick got a raw deal it is still a FACT that what a taxidermist does is legal. Besides it has absolutly NOTHING to do with what Vick deserves.

Point 2. Whenever woodlands are torn down to make either roads, highways or buildings, do you have any idea of how many animals are "murdered"? deruralization of any 1 mile region of land makes what Vick did look like child's play. But nobody ever questions the government or private corporation for these killings. The reason why is simple.. It's business.

Huh? There are TONS of organizations that fight for this. But it is still a good point, which still has nothing to do with M. Vick.

One other thing. I don't think Vick killed dogs just for kicks. I think in those fights the dogs are mortally wounded. In incidents where Vick killed the dogs, I think the correct term is "putting them out of their misery".

Ok I was wrong...you are that stupid. A bullet to the head would be "putting them out of their misery". Drowning, choking, or slamming a dog till it dies is not..... Oh f*ck it. I got a feeling it won't stick with you.

[Dsinner]

Yep I certainly agree and I'm blown away by how some are so forgiving of him. I think part of that is because there are a lot of Falcons fans here who still have nostalgic feelings for him because outside of this place I never hear anyone talking about forgiving him and wanting him back in the NFL.

Hey, I'm one of them. Vick was BY FAR my favorite player after his 2nd year here. To me, what's right is right and what's wrong is wrong. Maybe it was the way I was raised, I don't know. But I think it takes a heartless person to do what he did (not the dogfighting).

[atlien]

Oh lordy, the Vick debate is back.

My 2 cents:

1) This whole debacle really brought home to me how bad we treat animals as a CULTURE. Sure what Vick did was bad, but I can´t say it´s any worst then the way animals are "grown" for America´s overconsumption of meat products (just look ot obesity rates, its disgusting). AHF is right, those industrial meat plants are pretty much just as bad as what Vick did in my mind, because a) how badly the animals are treated and b) Americans abuse the amount of meat they eat. Its all disgusting to me, and I personally have been eating less meat as a result.

2) Sure what he did was reprehensible, but you do have to feel bad for Vick. What struck me about this whole thing from the get-go, was that his cohorts were all older cousins of his. These were family members who were all senior to him, and thus had an influence on him throughout his life. When it comes down to it, Vick was ignorant. He was never shown the right path by the people around him, and had really really bad influences guiding his actions. He didn´t think dogfighting was wrong. Why? Because everyone of his peers and elders had been into it since we was a kid. I mean, it´s just sad.

Dude lost his career and over $100-million. Im not defending his actions, I merely feel sorry that he never had the right people showing him the way. Feel me?

[Dsinner]

Oh lordy, the Vick debate is back.

My 2 cents:

1) This whole debacle really brought home to me how bad we treat animals as a CULTURE. Sure what Vick did was bad, but I can´t say it´s any worst then the way animals are "grown" for America´s overconsumption of meat products (just look ot obesity rates, its disgusting). AHF is right, those industrial meat plants are pretty much just as bad as what Vick did in my mind, because a) how badly the animals are treated and b) Americans abuse the amount of meat they eat. Its all disgusting to me, and I personally have been eating less meat as a result.

2) Sure what he did was reprehensible, but you do have to feel bad for Vick. What struck me about this whole thing from the get-go, was that his cohorts were all older cousins of his. These were family members who were all senior to him, and thus had an influence on him throughout his life. When it comes down to it, Vick was ignorant. He was never shown the right path by the people around him, and had really really bad influences guiding his actions. He didn´t think dogfighting was wrong. Why? Because everyone of his peers and elders had been into it since we was a kid. I mean, it´s just sad.

Dude lost his career and over $100-million. Im not defending his actions, I merely feel sorry that he never had the right people showing him the way. Feel me?

I feel ya. Too bad I don't think his views, and others with those views, will ever change. People have different beliefs on what is right and wrong and it usually took them 18 (says the law anyway) years to establish these. I very seriously doubt he has changed his beliefs in a year. I know it woud take much longer than that to convince me dogfighting is "ok."

Not to mention if we all used society as an excuse I would currently be missing at least 4 teeth, have the education of a 6th grader and have a confederate flag covering up the bedroom window in my single-wide. I'm just sayin...

[atlien]

Not to mention if we all used society as an excuse I would currently be missing at least 4 teeth, have the education of a 6th grader and have a confederate flag covering up the bedroom window in my single-wide. I'm just sayin...

I agree. I definitely dont think Vick can use it as an excuse, because we are all responsible for our own actions. All Im saying is it is clear that Vick has had bad influences around him his entire life, and I feel sorry that he was never able to separate himself from those influences and surround himself with people who would show him the right way.

Same goes for his younger brother.

[Eddielives]

Understand that Vick was the money behind a dogfighting ring. He didn't personally handle the dogs from day to day. He probably has killed a dog or 2 in his lifetime, but not as the money. He got a raw deal because the guys who were doing the day to day maintaining of the dogs were the ones who got off for giving up Vick.

Secondly, there's no true reason why dogs should have a higher place in the world than any other animal. Believe it or not some cultures hunt and eat dogs. That doesn't make what Vick did right, but if you consider that a dog is an animal and not human you have to start to really look at the penalties were discussing here. Palin gets praised for hunt and field dressing an Elk while Vick gets 2 years for dog fighting. It would be better for me if you just said that Vick gets sentenced because he lied.

Now, your thought is "Diesel you must hate dogs". No. I love dogs. However, for me I have no fictionalized belief that a dog is any better than any other animal. Nobody here who is so satisfied about the Vick verdict and hates Vick because of what he did to dogs is willing to join up with PETA... so stop the hypocrisy. If I pit bull rushes into my back yard and threatens my child, then I will shot him....dead. Am I wrong for that?

Just a quick point here. You do know that humans are animals right?

[Diesel]

Just a quick point here. You do know that humans are animals right?

Sure we are. However, I have not seen anybody locking up a Killer whale for eating a seal. Or playing with one until he dies for that matter.

[AHF]

If they wanted they could cut a cows head off with a chainsaw, but it would be really screwed up and they'd get a ton of bad press and probably be persecuted [by the public at least] for it.

Just as an aside, but business do things at least as cruel as cutting a cows head off with a chainsaw. They do get bad press for it, but most of us (including myself) ignore it because we want don't want to know what really goes on.

[Diesel]

Ok I was wrong...you are that stupid. A bullet to the head would be "putting them out of their misery". Drowning, choking, or slamming a dog till it dies is not..... Oh f*ck it. I got a feeling it won't stick with you.

If you were talking about a human, then I would agree with you. But we're talking about a dog. There's nothing that should separate how we see dogs than how we see every other animal. Just because people call it sport or hunting doesn't mean that the end result isn't an animal being killed. An animal is just that. So if you kill an animal one way or another should it matter?? Either give it total respect like cows in India or not... but don't pick and choose which animal you want to be "top dog"... and make laws about one and not the other.

Moreover, for any of you who believe that Vick wasn't a scape goat used to promote this BS Law that was put on the books after he was caught... "you are that stupid."

Vick got the heaviest fine and penalty ever placed on anybody in dog fighting circles. Guys who have been convicted of Dog fighting two and three times didn't get nearly the amount of time that Vick did. One 3 time offender who was responsible for most of the dog fighting in LA didn't even get Jail time when he was caught. Vick was used as an example. And after Vick, there probably will never be a stronger sentence given (regardless of the circumstances). That's what I call a raw deal.

If you're going to call it justice, it must be consistent.

[Admin]

If you were talking about a human, then I would agree with you. But we're talking about a dog. There's nothing that should separate how we see dogs than how we see every other animal. Just because people call it sport or hunting doesn't mean that the end result isn't an animal being killed. An animal is just that. So if you kill an animal one way or another should it matter?? Either give it total respect like cows in India or not... but don't pick and choose which animal you want to be "top dog"... and make laws about one and not the other.

Just so I am 100% certain of what you're saying, in your eyes there is no difference between shooting a deer for food and strangling/drowning/electrocuting a dog just for kicks?

[AHF]

We have already talked about these misnomers:

Moreover, for any of you who believe that Vick wasn't a scape goat used to promote this BS Law that was put on the books after he was caught... "you are that stupid."

(Diesel)The act of Dog fighting didn't become a federal Law on the books until April 2007. Vick's house was raided April 2007.

It was illegal under Federal Law before Vick entered the league. It was illegal under State Law before Vick entered the league.

This is NOT new. Laws making interstate gambling, dog fighting, animal cruelty, etc. were in place before Vick was born.

The only thing the May 2007 law changed was the punishment under federal law. It was illegal under federal law before then - it just was a misdemeanor. Dog fighting and animal cruelty was already a felony under state law in Virginia.

Of course, interstate gambling and the RICO implications were illegal long before May 2007 as well.

As far as Vick being aware his actions were illegal, nothing changed in 2007.

Seriously, do you think he thought it was legal and built this secret, isolated location because he was shy? Of course not. He knew it was illegal and was trying to avoid getting noticed while breaking the law.

(1) The law you are quoting is NOT a Virginia law. It is a federal law. Just like I said, it was a felony in Virginia before the law you are quoting was passed.

(2) The law you are quoting did NOT make dogfighting and interstate gambling illegal under federal law. It changed the punishment for animal fighting.

(3) Dogfighting was illegal for YEARS before Vick entered the league under both federal and state law.

So WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?????

You keep raising the issue of a new law not giving him NOTICE.

It was ALREADY ILLEGAL before the May 2007 law was passed.

BEFORE that law was passed, what he did was:

(1) A federal felony gambling violation;

(2) A federal felony violation of laws prohibiting interstate travel for the purpose of commiting an illegal act;

(3) a federal misdemeanor animal fighting violation;

(4) a state felony animal cruetly/dog fighting violation

Here is the only change after that law was passed:

Quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(1) A federal felony gambling violation;

(2) A federal felony violation of laws prohibiting interstate travel for the purpose of commiting an illegal act;

(3) a federal felony animal fighting violation;

(4) a state felony animal cruetly/dog fighting violation

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

How in the world does changing a misdemeanor to a felony for one of numerous criminal acts change the fact that this conduct was clearly against the law for years and years before May 2007?

It doesn't. It was clearly illegal when he signed his deal. It was clearly illegal when he was indicted. Nothing changed except the potential punishment for one of several potential charges. In fact, the state charges were the ones that carried the longest potential sentence - they just also carried a much bigger risk of getting an incompetent prosecutor, judge and jury pool making a conviction for hometown hero less likely.

The most serious federal charges were coming in the superceding indictment that was never filed after Vick pled guilty to felony charges. There was no change in those laws either.

Vick could have been nailed harder. He is paying a huge price but he is also a little bit lucky because he could be in jail for a lot longer if he gambled on finding an "OJ" prosecution and jury combo to get him off the hook.

Incidently, you ignored the most serious federal charge for interstate travel with intent to commit a crime which carries a 5 year sentence and with which he was charged in the federal indictment. This is known as the travel act and it deals with gambling - which is why his plea included details about how he funded an illegal gambling operation.

Vick also included in his plea agreement a provision increasing the sentence based on the brutal nature of the killing of the pit bulls with which he was involved (this is part of the federal sentencing guidelines and means that a larger sentence is appropriate than in the case of a run of the mill violation of the laws with which Vick was charged).

* * * * * *

No, because your question assumes that he only pled guilty to violating one law. Vick pled guilty to a single conspiracy count that was a conspiracy to violate two federal laws. One prohibiting dog fighting (the law you are talking about) and one prohibiting interstate gambling (the Travel Act).

The violation of the Travel Act (which is a felony) and was not changed in May 2007. That is the law forbidding interstate travel for the purpose of commiting a crime.

Vick was charged with two crimes. One never changed. The other was always illegal and changed the penalty. He could have been charged with much more serious crimes based on his funding of an interstate gambling operations

Vick got the heaviest fine and penalty ever placed on anybody in dog fighting circles.

I think saying he got 5 to 6 times the most amount of time anyone has ever gotten for dogfighting is a pretty big bit of an exaggeration. There have been other cases where people got much more significant sentences for dog fighting:

Man gets 102 year sentence for dog fighting

<a href="http://www.hsus.org/acf/news/dogfighter_gets_102_year_sentence.html" target="_blank">http://www.hsus.org/acf/news/dogfighter_ge...r_sentence.html</a>

Man gets 5 year sentence for dog fighting

<a href="http://da.co.la.ca.us/mr/020808c.htm" target="_blank">http://da.co.la.ca.us/mr/020808c.htm</a>

David Tant receives 20 years for dog fighting

<a href="http://crime.about.com/b/2004/12/26/pit-bull-breeder-gets-30-years.htm" target="_blank">http://crime.about.com/b/2004/12/26/pit-bu...ts-30-years.htm</a>

Others received more serious dog fighting charges before Vick.

Edited October 24, 2008 by AHF