If Granger can have 30+ point games, Marvin MUST do it as well..

[HAWKS1986]

Marvin isn't the source of ALL our problems. Marvin can't cure all of our interior defensive problems. However, he is the former overall #2 pick in the draft and its time for him to step his game up RIGHT NOW. He's healthy, and can't fall on the crutch that he is young. It's time to show your talent and he must be able to put this team on his back for games at a time.

WE NEED MARVIN to play up to and over his potential. Indiana's Danny Granger is an emerging player and has hit the 30+ point barrier a few times in his career and has shown solid versatility as an offensive player, and we need to see this from Marvin on amore regular basis.

He did hit a clutch three in Boston, but where was he versus New Jersey? Indiana? 14 points on the surface may look like a nice stat line, but it simply isn't enough.

Marvin can't complain about playing time, him being a rookie..he is a fourth year player who needs to show more offensive assertiveness and take the initiative and get this Haqwks' team out of its funk.

I hate to see Josh Smith out, and Al hurt and Zaza hurt, but the 6'9 235lb fourth year small forward needs to completely come out of his shell and put the type of offensive numbers that Danny Granger did for Indiana against the Hawks.

[ecc423]

...at most, only 72 more regular season games left with marvin as a hawk.....yip-pee!!!

[TruJerz]

Marvin isn't the source of ALL our problems. Marvin can't cure all of our interior defensive problems. However, he is the former overall #2 pick in the draft and its time for him to step his game up RIGHT NOW. He's healthy, and can't fall on the crutch that he is young. It's time to show your talent and he must be able to put this team on his back for games at a time.

WE NEED MARVIN to play up to and over his potential. Indiana's Danny Granger is an emerging player and has hit the 30+ point barrier a few times in his career and has shown solid versatility as an offensive player, and we need to see this from Marvin on amore regular basis.

He did hit a clutch three in Boston, but where was he versus New Jersey? Indiana? 14 points on the surface may look like a nice stat line, but it simply isn't enough.

Marvin can't complain about playing time, him being a rookie..he is a fourth year player who needs to show more offensive assertiveness and take the initiative and get this Haqwks' team out of its funk.

I hate to see Josh Smith out, and Al hurt and Zaza hurt, but the 6'9 235lb fourth year small forward needs to completely come out of his shell and put the type of offensive numbers that Danny Granger did for Indiana against the Hawks.

Granger and Marvin may play the same position but they have 2 different roles on their teams. Yes Marvin has the green light to shoot whenever he wants on this team but he plays with other scorers in JJ, Bibby, Murray, ect. Granger plays alongside TJ Ford, Daniels, and guys like that who arent known for scoring many points. Trade Granger for Marvin and I bet Granger's stats go down a bit and Marvin's go up a little bit. Marvin does have his games here and there but come on man..Granger is a freakin star! no comparison lol

With that said, I think Marvin's overall game has again improved this season despite his numbers being down

[Diesel]

Marvin isn't the source of ALL our problems. Marvin can't cure all of our interior defensive problems. However, he is the former overall #2 pick in the draft and its time for him to step his game up RIGHT NOW. He's healthy, and can't fall on the crutch that he is young. It's time to show your talent and he must be able to put this team on his back for games at a time.

WE NEED MARVIN to play up to and over his potential. Indiana's Danny Granger is an emerging player and has hit the 30+ point barrier a few times in his career and has shown solid versatility as an offensive player, and we need to see this from Marvin on amore regular basis.

He did hit a clutch three in Boston, but where was he versus New Jersey? Indiana? 14 points on the surface may look like a nice stat line, but it simply isn't enough.

Marvin can't complain about playing time, him being a rookie..he is a fourth year player who needs to show more offensive assertiveness and take the initiative and get this Haqwks' team out of its funk.

I hate to see Josh Smith out, and Al hurt and Zaza hurt, but the 6'9 235lb fourth year small forward needs to completely come out of his shell and put the type of offensive numbers that Danny Granger did for Indiana against the Hawks.

[atlien]

My 2005 draft strategy was to take Chris Paul at 2 and then try to trade for a pick around 10 to snag Granger (who I was really bullish on at the time and felt not much separated Marvin from him). Then, when Granger fell to 17, I was shocked no team traded for a pick to get him.

Just sayin...

[Packfill]

Granger and Marvin may play the same position but they have 2 different roles on their teams. Yes Marvin has the green light to shoot whenever he wants on this team but he plays with other scorers in JJ, Bibby, Murray, ect. Granger plays alongside TJ Ford, Daniels, and guys like that who arent known for scoring many points. Trade Granger for Marvin and I bet Granger's stats go down a bit and Marvin's go up a little bit. Marvin does have his games here and there but come on man..Granger is a freakin star! no comparison lol

With that said, I think Marvin's overall game has again improved this season despite his numbers being down

Obviously, Granger is a much better player then Marvin. That much is certain. Add him to the increasingly long list of players from the 2005 draft class outshining Marvin.

[AHF]

I think the key phrase is that Marvin must get out of his comfort zone. He hasn't shown any interest in getting out of his comfort zone to date and he will never be a true impact player until he does. From that perspective, he needs to grow up and accept more responsibility on the floor. His problem is the opposite of the "selfish chucker" problem but you need to be somewhere in the middle to be at your most effective. Marvin need not be at his peak maturity and it would be unrealistic to expect that he would be there at this age, but it is time to leave the nest and take on a more assertive role on offense.

[crimedog]

I think the key phrase is that Marvin must get out of his comfort zone. He hasn't shown any interest in getting out of his comfort zone to date and he will never be a true impact player until he does. From that perspective, he needs to grow up and accept more responsibility on the floor. His problem is the opposite of the "selfish chucker" problem but you need to be somewhere in the middle to be at your most effective. Marvin need not be at his peak maturity and it would be unrealistic to expect that he would be there at this age, but it is time to leave the nest and take on a more assertive role on offense.

I think, to an extent, Marv just isn't a talented enough basketball player or fluid enough athlete to play at that level. I actually think the fluid athlete part might be more important. His shot is very accurate when he rarely takes a fade-away because he doesn't shoot very well on the move so you never see him shooting right in someone's grill or pulling up. Its either shoot if your wide open or drive if the defender is closing out, but Marv doesn't have the body control to finish in a crowd, he like's to draw contact against help defenders who are a little bit late but even when he dunks, he's rarely dunking ON someone and he rarely gets AND1s for a guy who draws so many fouls.

Its not an indictment on Marv (in my opinion) as much as it is on BK, the Hawks scouting staff, and the Nat'l media who thought they saw a superstar player in a guy who is basically the same one now as he was in college.

I think Marv is a fine, productive player now. I think if he can ever get coordinated enough to hit shots at wierd angles or navigate traffic around the hoop, he can be a border line all-star. He's not going to be a superstar though and it has nothing to do with drive, motivation, mindset, etc.

[Dexmethylphenidate]

I think the key phrase is that Marvin must get out of his comfort zone. He hasn't shown any interest in getting out of his comfort zone to date and he will never be a true impact player until he does. From that perspective, he needs to grow up and accept more responsibility on the floor. His problem is the opposite of the "selfish chucker" problem but you need to be somewhere in the middle to be at your most effective. Marvin need not be at his peak maturity and it would be unrealistic to expect that he would be there at this age, but it is time to leave the nest and take on a more assertive role on offense.

Marvin reminds me of Boris Diaw. The guy can play but is not aggressive enough. With Josh Smith out and maybe Horford, he definitely need to average 19 and 7 the rest of the way until everyone's healthy.

Edited November 19, 2008 by DeerPark

[Traceman]

I think, to an extent, Marv just isn't a talented enough basketball player or fluid enough athlete to play at that level. I actually think the fluid athlete part might be more important. His shot is very accurate when he rarely takes a fade-away because he doesn't shoot very well on the move so you never see him shooting right in someone's grill or pulling up. Its either shoot if your wide open or drive if the defender is closing out, but Marv doesn't have the body control to finish in a crowd, he like's to draw contact against help defenders who are a little bit late but even when he dunks, he's rarely dunking ON someone and he rarely gets AND1s for a guy who draws so many fouls.

Its not an indictment on Marv (in my opinion) as much as it is on BK, the Hawks scouting staff, and the Nat'l media who thought they saw a superstar player in a guy who is basically the same one now as he was in college.

I think Marv is a fine, productive player now. I think if he can ever get coordinated enough to hit shots at wierd angles or navigate traffic around the hoop, he can be a border line all-star. He's not going to be a superstar though and it has nothing to do with drive, motivation, mindset, etc.

I fall somewhere in between you and AHF on Marvin. I agree with him that the only way Marvin can become a true impact player is to get out of his comfort zone and accept more responsibility on the floor. He needs to more aggressively look for his shot on offense, he needs to be more of a playmaker to take pressure off of JJ, he needs to more aggressively go after rebounds on both ends of the floor and he needs to do a better job of defending in the post.

I don't think talent or skilll is Marvin's problem (I think he is EXTREMELY talented) but I do agree with you that he may not be a FLUID enough athlete to ever be great. Marvin is a very good athlete and his measureables are very impressive but his athleticism doesn't translate to the court as well as I think it should.

Although Brooking was better, Marvin reminds me of Keith Brooking (the younger, better version) in a way. Keith made a lot of Pro Bowls because of the impressive number of tackles he made but I always thought he should have had FAR more of an impact on the game than he did. Many of those tackles happened 3 yards downfield when they should have been happening at the line of scrimmage or in the backfield. It's like Brooking knew what to do and where to be but rather than instinctively flowing to the ball, he would wait until he SAW what was happening and then he would react. That is what Marvin does. He needs to just let himself go. He may never be able to do that though and if he can't, he will simply be a productive player but never a star.

[h2t]

Marvin reminds me of Boris Diaw. The guy can play but is not aggressive enough. With Josh Smith out and maybe Horford, he definitely need to average 19 and 7 the rest of the way until everyone's healthy.

It seems to me aggressiveness isn't his problem..it's his body control or lack there of when he drives the lane. It's like when he tries to draw a foul he jumps into the guys chest and gives himself no chance to make the shot. And when he tries to just make the shot he gets completely out of control and either loses the ball or gets called for an offensive foul. I'd rather see him just stay on the perimeter at this point but with all our quality bigs hurt he can't...he has to give help on the inside. We just need to get healthy and let Marvin be Marvin. He isn't ready to take on the load we're trying to give him. TBH i'm not sure he'll ever be at this point..at least not in a Hawks uniform. I hope he proves me wrong.

[AnakinJoe]

I think the key phrase is that Marvin must get out of his comfort zone. He hasn't shown any interest in getting out of his comfort zone to date and he will never be a true impact player until he does. From that perspective, he needs to grow up and accept more responsibility on the floor. His problem is the opposite of the "selfish chucker" problem but you need to be somewhere in the middle to be at your most effective. Marvin need not be at his peak maturity and it would be unrealistic to expect that he would be there at this age, but it is time to leave the nest and take on a more assertive role on offense.

I agree in principle with AHF. Marvin is extremely disciplined, almost to a fault. I recall Solo's comment about feeling like he needed to stay within the role that was previously defined by the coaching staff. It became an excuse of sorts for not fully developing himself (and his skills) during the off-season. Then we read that Marvin may have developed his 3-ball shooting after a conversation with Sund. Again, Marvin is playing the role of good solider and doing exactly what his bosses are telling him to do. But to fully optimize his considerable talents, he needs to decide to go above and beyond the box where he has grown comfortable. He needs a 6 for 15 kind of shooting night. We need to see him chuck up shots throughout a game. Because the 6-8 shots he takes most nights won't cut it, especially with Smith and Horford out. But he has to be willing to fail in order to experience unprecedented success. And let's face it, Woody doesn't seem the sort to reward guys for failure... which may be one of the reasons why Marvin stays comfortably in his 14 point box (with a 50% FG%).

[crimedog]

I fall somewhere in between you and AHF on Marvin. I agree with him that the only way Marvin can become a true impact player is to get out of his comfort zone and accept more responsibility on the floor. He needs to more aggressively look for his shot on offense, he needs to be more of a playmaker to take pressure off of JJ, he needs to more aggressively go after rebounds on both ends of the floor and he needs to do a better job of defending in the post.

No, you're right, and I agree that a lot of it is on him. I just think that people are talking about Marv reaching a ceiling that he just can't reach, regardless of how hard he works.

I don't think he's lazy either, just not particularly aggressive, he has a role-player's mindset. He'll work hard, he'll give it his all, but he doesn't think of himself as the type of guy who will take over a game. Because of the limitations that he DOES have, its not as easy for him as it is for a guy like TMac who doesn't walk like a duck.

He can jump, but he's not explosive off the ground like Josh. He's put on weight, but he's too lanky and its too spread out for him to hold position. He's got an OK handle but he's got those freakishly long gangly arms and its hard for him to pick up his dribble sometimes when he's moving quickly.

Its a sliding scale. Marv can do more than he is now, but he isn't dogging it like some make him out to be, I think he gets as much out of his talents as the average player... he's not like Tim Duncan or Kobe or KG who can squeeze every ounce of ability out of their body, but he's not like Derrick Coleman who just didn't try. Average for Marv just isn't as high as a lot of people think it is, and that fluidness might never come to him.

[Traceman]

No, you're right, and I agree that a lot of it is on him. I just think that people are talking about Marv reaching a ceiling that he just can't reach, regardless of how hard he works.

I don't think he's lazy either, just not particularly aggressive, he has a role-player's mindset. He'll work hard, he'll give it his all, but he doesn't think of himself as the type of guy who will take over a game. Because of the limitations that he DOES have, its not as easy for him as it is for a guy like TMac who doesn't walk like a duck.

He can jump, but he's not explosive off the ground like Josh. He's put on weight, but he's too lanky and its too spread out for him to hold position. He's got an OK handle but he's got those freakishly long gangly arms and its hard for him to pick up his dribble sometimes when he's moving quickly.

Its a sliding scale. Marv can do more than he is now, but he isn't dogging it like some make him out to be, I think he gets as much out of his talents as the average player... he's not like Tim Duncan or Kobe or KG who can squeeze every ounce of ability out of their body, but he's not like Derrick Coleman who just didn't try. Average for Marv just isn't as high as a lot of people think it is, and that fluidness might never come to him.

Very well said. That is exactly how I see him as well. Hopefully, he will manage to maximize his considerable talents and become the best player he can be.

[h2t]

Very well said. That is exactly how I see him as well. Hopefully, he will manage to maximize his considerable talents and become the best player he can be.

+1

[Diesel]

Very well said. That is exactly how I see him as well. Hopefully, he will manage to maximize his considerable talents and become the best player he can be.

It's really a shame when you consider the people of that 2005 draft picked after 2...

Paul

DWilliams.

Bynum

Granger

Lee

Maxielle

Jack

Garcia

Ellis

In one way or another these guys are definitely better than Marv.

Then you have:

Webster

Felton

Villenueva

Diogu

Frye

Kleiza

Warrick

Head

in one way or another, you'd have a hard time convincing me that Marv was better than these guys.

[Guest Walter]

I don't think he's lazy either, just not particularly aggressive, he has a role-player's mindset. He'll work hard, he'll give it his all, but he doesn't think of himself as the type of guy who will take over a game. Because of the limitations that he DOES have, its not as easy for him as it is for a guy like TMac who doesn't walk like a duck.

I'm still shocked it took so many people so long to see this about MW. After watching him at UNC I knew this. It still boggles my mind that some people don't see it. Anthony Morrow just scored 37 points in the 2nd start in his undrafted rookie year for christ sake. Marvin's never come close to that in 3+ seasons, 2+ of which he was given the starting position.

Anyhow, the guy will never "get it" and isn't the athlete people want to see out of him. IMO his game impact will never be that great. IMO his trade value is still greater than his in-game value. Somebody is still in love with him. I just hope we get the most out of the poorly spent #2 draft pick we can. That MIGHT mean keeping him but I doubt it.

W

[crimedog]

I'm still shocked it took so many people so long to see this about MW. After watching him at UNC I knew this. It still boggles my mind that some people don't see it. Anthony Morrow just scored 37 points in the 2nd start in his undrafted rookie year for christ sake. Marvin's never come close to that in 3+ seasons, 2+ of which he was given the starting position.

Anyhow, the guy will never "get it" and isn't the athlete people want to see out of him. IMO his game impact will never be that great. IMO his trade value is still greater than his in-game value. Somebody is still in love with him. I just hope we get the most out of the poorly spent #2 draft pick we can. That MIGHT mean keeping him but I doubt it.

W

IF his trade value is high, lets trade him; if someone thinks he's a star and is willing to pay for that, I'm perfectly willing to see him go. If its not, there is no reason to get rid of him for the sake of getting rid of him. He's not a negative influence, it seems like he's a pretty positive one in a lot of ways. He can fill a role for us.

[TruJerz]

It's really a shame when you consider the people of that 2005 draft picked after 2...

Paul

DWilliams.

Bynum

Granger

Lee

Maxielle

Jack

Garcia

Ellis

In one way or another these guys are definitely better than Marv.

Then you have:

Webster

Felton

Villenueva

Diogu

Frye

Kleiza

Warrick

Head

in one way or another, you'd have a hard time convincing me that Marv was better than these guys.

lol all of these players you named are not better than Marvin Williams. Like Jarrett Jack, Garcia, Webster, Warrick, and Diogo(are u serious man). Then guys like Kleiza, Head, and Villanueva are arguable too.

Its only because you are a Hawks fan why u think that because some of these players arent liked by their fans either. So rethink that

[FrankWhite]

It's really a shame when you consider the people of that 2005 draft picked after 2...

Paul

DWilliams.

Bynum

Granger

Lee

Maxielle

Jack

Garcia

Ellis

In one way or another these guys are definitely better than Marv.

Then you have:

Webster

Felton

Villenueva

Diogu

Frye

Kleiza

Warrick

Head

in one way or another, you'd have a hard time convincing me that Marv was better than these guys.

You're an absolute joke.