Hold the presses!

[gsuteke]

I do not care about these folks using steroids even though everyone tells me that I should care. i view steroids as little more than another type of medical advance. Lets be honest--- asprin is a "performance enhancing drug". If it were not then no one would take it. If I have a headache then i take an asprin so my headache goes away and I perform better in my job.

No way Jose - bigtime longterm ramifications go along with juicing.

I think the government is trying to rein in anabolic and growth hormone across the US, they're just using baseball to send out the warning.

[macdaddy]

Notably, A-Rod hasn't denied using, though.

Actually he did deny using in the 60 minutes interview when he said he never took any performance enhancing substance of any kind. now he admits he took several things while with the rangers. you know when he was htting 50 homers a year.

[Admin]

It was illegal period and it was banned by MLB. If you as a player feel like doing it anyway go ahead and take that plunge and make yourself a lot of money. Nevertheless, if I am in charge of baseball your legacy is your punishment.

Agreed. If they want to open a PED wing of MLB, I would put Bonds, A-Rod, and others in there in a heartbeat because they are historic players and historic cheaters. I would keep them out of the HOF until there is a separate wing for them, though.

Can you give me the link you are talking about regarding the confusion on the urine samples?

Notably, A-Rod hasn't denied using, though.

On publically outing people, I don't think that is realistic because the Union's leadership would get ousted for this screw-up if the entire list is released, IMO. All the players who were promised confidentiality would be incredibly pissed.

I'll see if I can find the link.

According to Boras A-Rod has been out of the country and won't be making a commend until he returns. I'm not sure when that will be though.

There's no doubt in my mind that A-Rod was targeted on this and if I were him I'd be incredibly pissed that my name just happened to be the one that got leaked and someone should get in a lot of trouble for breaking confidentiality. As Schilling said in order to move past this those names need to be released.

[Swish]

A-Roid 'fessed up

[Admin]

Well at least he admitted it and owned up to his mistakes and for lying about it in the past. That's a lot more than I can say for Bonds, BigMac, Palmeiro, Clemens, etc.

[Diesel]

I believe the depth missing in this conversation is here:

Human Growth Hormone in Baseball

Human growth hormone became big news in baseball when Jason Grimsley was caught accepting a package of the drug by IRS Criminal Investigation. When confronted by the IRS, Grimsley admitted his own use of steroids, growth hormone and other drugs and named a number of former teammates as users of various performance-enhancers. Perhaps the most telling part of his confession was his admission that he had used only hGH since Major League Baseball instituted its steroid testing program in 2004. He also described a situation where a player, later revealed to be David Segui, acquired growth hormone from a doctor. On ESPN's Outside the Lines, Segui said his doctor deemed him hGH deficient and not only prescribed him the drugs but monitored his levels while he was using it. That a grown man physically strong enough to play Major League Baseball in the first place would require growth hormone is widely disputed.

While hGH is banned my MLB, there is still no reliable test.

Jose Canseco sang its praises in Juiced, and included it in his cocktails. It was a BALCO staple as well. Jim Leyritz told the New York Times he sought hGH when recovering from a shoulder injury. Leyritz's hGH use was in 2000 when there was no testing in baseball at all. He used hGH because there was a history of prostate cancer in his family and thought taking anabolic steroids was not worth the risk.

Human Growth Hormone as a Performance-Enhancing Drug

The main attraction to hGH for athletes (aside from the lack of reliable test) is its ability to aid in the recovery and prevention of injuries. Growth hormone stimulates the synthesis of collagen, which is necessary for strengthening cartilage, bones, tendons and ligaments.

Jason Grimsley used the drug in combination with anabolic steroid, deca-duabolin, to recover from ligament replacement (Tommy John) surgery after only nine months, half the estimated recovery time for pitchers.

The combination of anabolic steroids and hGH is especially useful and potent. Anabolic steroid use has been associated with increases in the frequency and severity of injuries in baseball. Bud Selig cited such information at the congressional hearings in 2005. Stronger connective tissues developed with hGH not only work better and heal faster, but they are better equipped to house oversized muscles associated with anabolic steroid use, and again prevent injuries.

The performance-enhancing uses for hGH are not limited to injuries. Growth hormone increases the number of red blood cells, boosts heart function and makes more energy available by stimulating the breakdown of fat. Users have also noted improved eyesight, better sleep and better sex.

Now, AHF, you mention specifically 1991 as the year Steroids were banned in baseball.

I disagree.

The truth is that in 1991, the memo went out from Fay Vincent, but it had not been made a "rule" because there was no agreement with the owners or the players' union. It was a Memo that was to set the ground work for the ban. It wasn't until 2002 (before the 2003 season) that Baseball added steroids into the bargain agreement.

Here's some of the details:

Commissioner Vincent's memorandum contained the following provisions:

• The possession, sale, or use of any illegal drug or controlled substance by major league players and personnel is strictly prohibited. Those involved in the possession, sale, or use of any illegal drug or controlled substance are subject to discipline by the commissioner and risk permanent expulsion from the game.

• In addition to any discipline this office may impose, a club may also take action under applicable provisions of and special covenants to the uniform player's contract. This prohibition applies to all illegal drugs and controlled substances, including steroids or prescription drugs for which the individual in possession of the drug does not have a prescription.

• MLB recognizes that illegal drug use has become a national problem, and that some players and baseball personnel may fall victim to drugs. Baseball will not hesitate to permanently remove from the game those players and personnel who, despite our efforts to treat and rehabilitate, refuse to accept responsibility for the problem and continue to use illegal drugs. If any club covers up or otherwise fails to disclose to this office any information concerning drug use by a player, that club will be fined $250,000, the highest allowable amount under the Major League Agreement.

• MLB believes that its testing program is the most effective means available to deter and detect drug use. For admitted or detected drug users, testing will be a component of that individual's after-care program for the balance of his or her professional baseball career.

• This office will continue to search for positive and constructive methods of dealing with drug use. While baseball will attempt to treat and rehabilitate any player or personnel who falls victim to a drug problem, we will not hesitate to impose discipline, especially in those cases involving repeated offenses or refusals to participate in a recommended and appropriate course of treatment.

• If any club has a question about any aspect of the drug use program, please contact Louis Melendez, Associate Counsel, Major League Baseball Player Relations Committee.

Sincerely,

Francis T. Vincent Jr.

Commissioner, Major League Baseball

If it's not agreed to by the owners or the players union, it can't be a league ban. Legally, you know that's not right.

[AHF]

If it's not agreed to by the owners or the players union, it can't be a league ban. Legally, you know that's not right.

That depends on the CBA. Look at the management rights clause in the CBA. Nearly every contract allows management to take certain unilateral steps without bargaining.

I would not be shocked if MLB management had the right to unilaterally ban things that are unlawful - like taking illegal steroids to boost performance. At the same time, I would not be shocked if this was a mandatory subject of bargaining. It would be controlled by the terms of the contract.

The owners acted here as if they had the unilateral right to ban these illegal substances but an obligation to bargain over testing.

--

Edit:

Note - 1991 is when steroids became illegal which makes sense that this is why MLB announced the ban as soon as they fell into the category of substances declared illegal by Congress.

Also, the 1996 CBA contains a broad management rights clause reserving the right for management to unilaterally take any action not specifically prohibited by the agreement. This is almost surely identical to the clause in the CBA applicable in 1991.

Edited February 9, 2009 by AHF

[Diesel]

That depends on the CBA. Look at the management rights clause in the CBA. Nearly every contract allows management to take certain unilateral steps without bargaining.

I would not be shocked if MLB management had the right to unilaterally ban things that are unlawful - like taking illegal steroids to boost performance. At the same time, I would not be shocked if this was a mandatory subject of bargaining. It would be controlled by the terms of the contract.

Doesn't every sport have that cloak?

Think about... Sports have a "Drug Policy". Punishment is suspensions and fines. However, same activity in the real world will give you JAIL TIME. That's what have always surprised me about sports. They test for Drug use and drug violators are not punishable by law.

Our own Mookie Blaylock was caught with Weed...

He was detained for marijuana possession..... is the official word. No Jail time.. Just held him up from getting to a basketball game.

I refer you to this article...

The Union has blocked all attempts that baseball and the American public have clamored for when it comes to an effective drug policy. Certainly they are not the only union in history to attempt to do so, however because of the high profile of baseball and its players - and baseball’s anti trust exemption (we’ll be doing a piece on the Anti-Trust exemption in our What Every Fan Should Know column in the near future), they may not be able to block the testing forever. In fact because of the Union’s stance on drug testing several members of Congress have suggested legislating a drug policy.

This tells me that Vincent's memo had no real power. It takes an act of Congress to break the will of the Players Union and basically that's what happened.

[AHF]

This tells me that Vincent's memo had no real power. It takes an act of Congress to break the will of the Players Union and basically that's what happened.

There is no doubt that without the ability to do random testing and take disciplinary action based on those results that drug testing will not be effective. From that perspective, Vincent's memo was meaningless. It instituted a ban with no means of effectively implementing that ban short of a player being stupid enough to basically out himself. It doesn't change the fact that people violated that ban by cheating but it

That still would not make me hesitate from either keeping those people who used steroids out of the hall or in their own "cheaters and drug abusers" wing of the MLB HOF.

[Diesel]

It doesn't change the fact that people violated that ban by cheating but it

That still would not make me hesitate from either keeping those people who used steroids out of the hall or in their own "cheaters and drug abusers" wing of the MLB HOF.

I take it that the memo was a CYA moment for Vicent but he knew and everybody else knew that it had no power.

How do you say we're going to ban this action but you never police the action?

The whole reason for police is to enforce laws. Without Law enforcement, Laws are meaningless.

[AHF]

I take it that the memo was a CYA moment for Vicent but he knew and everybody else knew that it had no power.

How do you say we're going to ban this action but you never police the action?

The whole reason for police is to enforce laws. Without Law enforcement, Laws are meaningless.

I see a good analogy of getting into the HOF as being akin to getting nominated for office. There may be no effective enforcement mechanism for making sure people like Linda Chavez don't employ illegal immigrants but it is still against the rules and can still keep you out of office. Same applies to people like A-Rod who figured they could get away with it without repurcussions because there wasn't an effective means of catching them.

Of course, the people who suffered the most from this were the players who were clean. I have never understood how the Union could justify hurting the careers of clean players in favor of those who were cheating. I think the clean players were just too afraid of outing their cheating brethren to cause a fuss about it.

[Diesel]

I see a good analogy of getting into the HOF as being akin to getting nominated for office. There may be no effective enforcement mechanism for making sure people like Linda Chavez don't employ illegal immigrants but it is still against the rules and can still keep you out of office. Same applies to people like A-Rod who figured they could get away with it without repurcussions because there wasn't an effective means of catching them.

Of course, the people who suffered the most from this were the players who were clean. I have never understood how the Union could justify hurting the careers of clean players in favor of those who were cheating. I think the clean players were just too afraid of outing their cheating brethren to cause a fuss about it.

All the union cares about is money. When Big Mac and Sosa were going at it, they knew that Big Mac was juicing. However, the race was causing people to watch baseball again. Baseball (as a whole) turned a blind eye. The HR is the fan attraction of baseball for the non-purist. People want to see the longball.

The shame is that Griffey Jr. is somewhere around 600 and he's supposedly been clean his whole career.

[DrReality]

Clemens loses ground in suit vs. McNamee

Associated Press

Friday, February 13, 2009

Houston —- A federal judge dismissed most of Roger Clemens’ defamation lawsuit against his former personal trainer Thursday, saying statements made in the Mitchell Report on doping in baseball are protected.

Brian McNamee has told federal agents, baseball investigator George Mitchell and a House of Representatives committee that he injected Clemens more than a dozen times with steroids and human growth hormone from 1998-2001.

McNamee’s attorneys said Clemens’ lawsuit should be thrown out because McNamee was compelled to cooperate by federal investigators.

U.S. District Judge Keith Ellison agreed, but he left in McNamee’s statements to Andy Pettitte, Clemens’ former New York Yankees teammate. McNamee told Pettitte that Clemens had used HGH and steroids.

[mattlanta]

I had a weird feeling that A-Rod was 'roiding a couple years ago. I wasn't really sure of it though, but I must say I'm still very surprised of this.

Out of 103 other names though, why was A-Rod's the only one that was publicized?

And just to put this out there, I believe Mark Teixeira and Big Papi were and maybe still are on 'roids.

[Diesel]

I had a weird feeling that A-Rod was 'roiding a couple years ago. I wasn't really sure of it though, but I must say I'm still very surprised of this.

Out of 103 other names though, why was A-Rod's the only one that was publicized?

And just to put this out there, I believe Mark Teixeira and Big Papi were and maybe still are on 'roids.

Yeah!!!

And what about Manny??

[mattlanta]

Yeah!!!

And what about Manny??

Not sure... oh yeah and Andruw Jones was definitely on steroids.