SI article on Smoove/Woody

[bird_dirt]

Click

pretty good article, a little more info than what sekou has provided (imo).

Josh Smith is averaging more than 15 points and seven rebounds this season for Atlanta.

"They both arrived here in 2004. It hasn't been a marriage. It's been a pie fight."

-- Atlanta Journal-Constitution, on the relationship between Josh Smith and Mike Woodson

About 15 years ago, back when I was still a wide-eyed ball boy with the Boston Celtics, I learned the basketball definition of the word combustible. My education came during a relatively meaningless regular-season game in the mid 1990s between Boston and Seattle. Gary Payton, the Sonics' mercurial point guard, had just freelanced a play on the offensive end that resulted in a Seattle turnover. As Payton brought the ball up the court on the next possession, then Sonics coach George Karl took the opportunity to bark at him from the sidelines.

"Just run the play!" shouted Karl.

Payton shot back, "Why don't you come out here and run it yourself?"

Sitting behind the Seattle bench, I remember thinking to myself, How can these two coexist?

But they did. Swimmingly. In Payton's 12½ years with the Sonics -- seven of which were played under Karl -- Seattle won four division titles and went to the 1996 NBA Finals. Though Payton and Karl were never considered best of friends (Karl famously tried to convince management to trade Payton for Mookie Blaylock in '95) there was an underlying respect that enabled their relationship to be successful. Karl has credited Payton for making him into an elite coach and Payton has conceded that he probably wouldn't have developed into one of the NBA's top point guards without Karl as his coach.

Why am I recounting this story? Because I don't think that respect exists between Josh Smith and Mike Woodson.

When you are writing a story about Smith, which I did last year for Sports Illustrated, you have to delve into his relationship with Woodson. The two are at constant odds over Smith's role in the offense; Woodson believes Smith is most effective playing around the rim, using his superior athleticism to create second chance opportunities and get easy baskets. A Shawn Marion-type, if you will. Smith fancies himself as more of a traditional scorer, one with three-point range. Take a peek at Woodson's face next time Smith launches an errant three and you will get a good idea what he thinks of that.

The seemingly endless tug-of-war usually simmers quietly, only to be interrupted now and again when Smith explodes, as he did in April '07, when he directed a profanity-laced tirade at Woodson during a loss in Philadelphia. The Hawks suspended Smith for two games.

The latest butting of heads happened last Friday in Charlotte. After watching Smith fire up a few too many perimeter bombs in the first half, Woodson reportedly teed off on him, calling his shot selection selfish. When Smith said something back, the two got into a heated exchange that was serious enough to warrant Woodson benching Smith for the entire second half.

"I don't know," Hawks guard Joe Johnson said after the game. "I think we all need to get on the same page. But it's kind of tough to play when the chemistry is not there, and we're not playing as one."

When a head coach and a player as significant as Smith -- who is averaging 15.1 points, 7.1 rebounds and 1.6 blocks this season -- can't see eye-to-eye, and the team suffers. As a result, conventional wisdom says one of them has to go.

Last year many thought it would be Woodson, who was in the final season of his contract and inherited a new boss in longtime Seattle executive Rick Sund, who was hired as the team's general manager last May. But a tough (and entertaining) seven-game series with Boston ignited an apathetic Atlanta fan base, essentially forcing Sund's hand and earning Woodson a two-year extension.

Then, after a month of fruitless negotiating with Atlanta last summer, Smith thought he was moving on when Memphis signed him to a five-year, $58 million offer sheet. But the Hawks, who had already lost valuable reserve Josh Childress to Europe a few weeks earlier, quickly matched the offer.

Which brings us to today. The Hawks are still struggling to develop consistency with a young, talented roster. They have big wins, such as a 100-93 win over Utah on Wednesday that snapped the Jazz's 12-game winning streak. But they also have puzzling defeats, like last month's 24-point home loss to the Clippers. At 37-28, Atlanta is a virtual lock to make the playoffs for the second year in a row. But after starting the season 21-10, the Hawks are a pedestrian 16-18 through Wednesday, and barring a prolonged playoff run (read: out of the first round), either Woodson or Smith may have to go.

Which one could go isn't clear. Smith's age (23) and productivity make him tradable, which may appeal to the cash-strapped Hawks ownership group. According to court documents, the Hawks owners have lost $50 million the last two seasons and are currently embroiled in a prolonged legal battle with estranged part-owner Steve Belkin. If the team hopes to find the money to re-sign point guard Mike Bibby, it may encourage Sund to send Smith packing in return for shorter contracts or to a team like Memphis, which has the cap space to absorb him outright. But trading Smith would not only take a jackhammer to the Hawks' rebuilding project, but also would alienate the fans. Attendance, which has been growing the past three years, would almost certainly suffer.

That makes Woodson the more likely target. Atlanta would be on the hook for the final year of Woodson's contract and budget limits would probably prevent the Hawks from flirting with some of the big names (Flip Saunders, Eddie Jordan, Avery Johnson) on the market. But bringing in a new coach would be an opportunity for Sund to put his stamp on the team. And if Sund feels the relationship between Woodson and Smith is beyond repair or that the constant battling is hindering the team's progress, such an opportunity might be difficult for the GM to pass up.

[crimedog]

Thanks for posting.

Not sure if it gives us any new insight, but it is definitely a fun read. We don't really know what either guy thinks and its pretty obvious that Mannix doesn't either (at least in terms of having sources on the inside that we don't have). It is pretty obvious that they don't love eachother.

The questions are though, are they both important to the team and can they co-exist?

I tend to think that the "Smith does X and Y because he doesn't like Woodson" is only partially true. Afterall, when Joe shot 37% for the entire month of December, we weren't rushing to find reasons for it like we do with Smith, we just said "Joe is having a poor month" and hoped he got his groove back.

The point he does make is that the "we have to trade Smith" stuff, while defensible, has to be beneficial to the team and not just reactionary. The team can't afford to lose his production (I'm not saying anything about potential here) and hope to continue to be competitive. Talent or no, it'll be tough for any team to take on a large, long-term contract with the uncertain economic environment.

Edited March 12, 2009 by crimedog

[HawkItus]

(Karl famously tried to convince management to trade Payton for Mookie Blaylock in '95)

The best part of the whole article. Can you imagine how that might have went down? Hawks would have had a true leader for the first time since Doc Rivers left. Why couldn't this have happened. :(

[DrReality]

I think it takes the awareness of the thing to another level to have it written by a national writer. But as I read I was thinking Smoove should pay attention to the outcome of his last few games where he has played more inside and how the team has benefitted as well as his numbers. That could be a huge lift for us if he were to get that part of his game going.

[Dsinner]

The best part of the whole article. Can you imagine how that might have went down? Hawks would have had a true leader for the first time since Doc Rivers left. Why couldn't this have happened. :(

Mookie was great for us after that. I actually thought he was playing better than the glove at the time. I'm sure someone can throw some stats out there that will void my memory of 15 years ago but I'm pretty sure Mookie held his own and was cheaper.

[Peoriabird]

I remember when Hawksquawkers use to claim that Woodson never told Josh Smith to not shoot 3's and I think that the discussion was addressed again this season as a dig at Woodson's coaching abilities. Now we know for the record that the main problem the Smith has with Woodson is the main problem Smith would have with hawksquawkers.

[tonegully]

Smoove needs to listen to Woodso(I never thought i would tell anyone to listen to woody). Play around and in the paint!!!

[Dsinner]

I remember when Hawksquawkers use to claim that Woodson never told Josh Smith to not shoot 3's and I think that the discussion was addressed again this season as a dig at Woodson's coaching abilities. Now we know for the record that the main problem the Smith has with Woodson is the main problem Smith would have with hawksquawkers.

No, for the record, Woody said he wasn't telling Josh not to shoot 3's. The problem is that Woody had 3+ years to try and develop Smooves game. Now all of a sudden he's going to try and tell Josh to not do something when for 3 years it wasn't an issue. So yes, Woody is a horrible coach and this article does nothing to contradict that.

[PlayaPat420]

No, for the record, Woody said he wasn't telling Josh not to shoot 3's. The problem is that Woody had 3+ years to try and develop Smooves game. Now all of a sudden he's going to try and tell Josh to not do something when for 3 years it wasn't an issue. So yes, Woody is a horrible coach and this article does nothing to contradict that.

I'm not a big Woody fan but it's more on the player to develope himself than the coach. Woody couldn't MAKE smoove work on post moves anymore than he could MAKE him shot 1000000 free throws a day, only Smoove can. the coaches job is to utilize a players talent.

[Peoriabird]

No, for the record, Woody said he wasn't telling Josh not to shoot 3's. The problem is that Woody had 3+ years to try and develop Smooves game. Now all of a sudden he's going to try and tell Josh to not do something when for 3 years it wasn't an issue. So yes, Woody is a horrible coach and this article does nothing to contradict that.

The two are at constant odds over Smith's role in the offense; Woodson believes Smith is most effective playing around the rim, using his superior athleticism to create second chance opportunities and get easy baskets. A Shawn Marion-type, if you will. Smith fancies himself as more of a traditional scorer, one with three-point range. Take a peek at Woodson's face next time Smith launches an errant three and you will get a good idea what he thinks of that.

[crimedog]

The two are at constant odds over Smith's role in the offense; Woodson believes Smith is most effective playing around the rim, using his superior athleticism to create second chance opportunities and get easy baskets. A Shawn Marion-type, if you will. Smith fancies himself as more of a traditional scorer, one with three-point range. Take a peek at Woodson's face next time Smith launches an errant three and you will get a good idea what he thinks of that.

Bird, you realize that he's doing the same thing Ric Bucher is. Don't get me wrong, I'd imagine Woody doesn't want Josh to take those shots, but Mannix doesn't claim the have any insider info, he doesn't claim to have a source... his evidence is that he looks at Woody's face.

Dsinner is pointing out the fact that Woody actually said in an interview that he wasn't going to tell Josh to stop taking those. I think it got a little blown out that he said that but Mannix knows as much about what actually happens in that locker room as you or I do, his editor just told him "bust out a story about the Hawks".

[HawkItus]

I think even Josh realizes that he isn't playing to his strengths by now. You look at his and Woody's relationship and I think it has gotten better. Also, I think guys like Bibby Flip Evans and Joe are helping. When they stand by the Coach it makes Josh see that the vets are not going to take his side. Unlike a few years back when we had a really young squad and the team was tilted with guys who shared Smoove's disrespect for authority.

[exodus]

Bibby had a nice play last game that made me laugh. He got the ball near the baseline on an inbounds play and was looking for someone to pass to. Everyone was covered except for Smith up top near the 3 pt line.

Smith was calling for the ball with his hands out and you could tell Bibby was intentionally ignoring him. There is no way that he didn't see or hear Smith.

He passed to someone else and they worked the ball around. Bibby eventually hit Smith right underneath the basket for a dunk.

I wish guys would ignore Smith more often when he is wide open outside.

[DrReality]

I was thinking he would listen to his teammates more than he would Woody. And now that the fans are booing him that has to reinforce the message.

[Dsinner]

The two are at constant odds over Smith's role in the offense; Woodson believes Smith is most effective playing around the rim, using his superior athleticism to create second chance opportunities and get easy baskets. A Shawn Marion-type, if you will. Smith fancies himself as more of a traditional scorer, one with three-point range. Take a peek at Woodson's face next time Smith launches an errant three and you will get a good idea what he thinks of that.

OK man, you believe the reporter, I'll believe the coach. I'm pretty sure the coach has more insight on how the coach is coaching. Wouldn't you think?

[AHF]

There is a way to reconicle both of those statements. If you assume that even Woody recognizes that Josh is not an effective perimeter shooter but also assume that Woodson over the past few years has been unwilling to force Josh into better shot selection that makes sense of both the SI article and Woodson statement that he isn't asking Josh to stop taking 3's.

[Dsinner]

There is a way to reconicle both of those statements. If you assume that even Woody recognizes that Josh is not an effective perimeter shooter but also assume that Woodson over the past few years has been unwilling to force Josh into better shot selection that makes sense of both the SI article and Woodson statement that he isn't asking Josh to stop taking 3's.

Just so there is no confusion, I do believe Woody hates Josh taking those shots. I'm not saying he doesn't mind Josh taking them. My point is he let it go on for so long without actually doing, or saying, anything about it. Now that the fans are reacting Woody senses his job may be on the line so now he wants to put Josh in his place. Well it's a little late to mold Josh this late in his career. Anyone else think it's funny that Woody decides to speak out on Josh's shot selection about the same time the fans do at Phillips? Woody, always looking out for numero uno.