so the truth comes out

[thecampster]

http://www.ajc.com/services/content/sports...=7&cxcat=21

interesting excerpts from the article

Woody's take

During last Sunday’s blowout win over Portland, point guard Mike Bibby drew Woodson’s ire. On a 4-on-1 break he pulled up for a jumper and missed. Woodson lost it on the sideline and shouted at Bibby, who by then was on the other end of the floor. Bibby shouted something back and Woodson fumed for another 30 seconds before everything went back to normal.

Had that player been Smith, the fallout likely would have lasted longer and been far more contentious.

Woodson disagreed.

“You can’t compare it,” he said. “Bibby didn’t curse me out. Or tell me that the play should be for someone else, like Josh did in Philadelphia when we suspended him. It’s like what happened in Charlotte. But it ended that night.”

Josh's take

“These past few games,” Smith said, “if you notice, a lot of that hard stuff hasn’t been said, and you see the results. That’s all I ask for. I know you’re going to get on me when you need to, because I’ve still got a lot to learn and a lot of growing to do. But if you leave me alone a little bit … it’s just easier to do your job that way.”

and from the article

When those matching passions bump heads is when things tend to go awry — as they did in Philadelphia two years ago.

Woodson called a play late in the game against the 76ers for Tyronn Lue. Smith didn’t agree. After a profane outburst in the huddle, Smith was sent to the showers. He was suspended two games for insubordination the next day.

What this means: Smith and Woodson argue because they both love basketball. Josh thinks it should be played from the inside out. Woodson being an old guard thinks it should be played outside in. They don't get along because woody thinks guards win basketball games and Josh doesn't. That's what the arguments stem from. Woodson reliance as a former guard on guards as primary scorers.

Which is why he sticks with Bibby and why Acie's inability to score from outside keeps him from playing more. Josh and Woodson's comments alude to Woodson treating the guards differently. I mean who in their right freaking mind draws the last play of a game up for Tyron Lue?

Edited March 21, 2009 by thecampster

[Admin]

Where do you get that Josh thinks it should be played from inside out? He has proven that if he's allowed he'll shoot jumpers more often than not.

I think you guys are seriously reaching to think that Woodson thinks we should play outside in. He's just playing to our strengths since we've had better guards and forwards than we've had bigs during his entire time with the Hawks.

Good read though and I hope that they'll both learn to respect each other a little bit more going forward.

[jhay610]

Where do you get that Josh thinks it should be played from inside out? He has proven that if he's allowed he'll shoot jumpers more often than not.

I think you guys are seriously reaching to think that Woodson thinks we should play outside in. He's just playing to our strengths since we've had better guards and forwards than we've had bigs during his entire time with the Hawks.

Good read though and I hope that they'll both learn to respect each other a little bit more going forward.

There has been a rampant outbreak of spurious assumption across this board recently that doesn't stand to logic - i.e. if A=B and B=C then B must also = Z.

Other than the unfounded and dubious comment about Woody and Smith's conflicting basketball philosophies, this was a good read.

[Wurider05]

Bottomline is that Woody is the coach. It doesn't matter what the f*** Josh thinks. How dare he tell the coach he is running that wrong play. Same with Bibby and his 1 on 5 three pointers. No f***ing respect at all.

[TroyMcClure]

Bottomline is that Woody is the coach. It doesn't matter what the f*** Josh thinks. How dare he tell the coach he is running that wrong play. Same with Bibby and his 1 on 5 three pointers. No f***ing respect at all.

Josh Smith is a helluva lot better player than Woodson ever was. Woodson is also the worst coach, at any level above high school, that my eyes have ever seen. So, how dare you defend this incompetent lifelong loser. If it weren't for Mike Bibby, in large part, we would be exactly where we were last year. Which is somewhere around the area of really sucking. Now, we just barely suck and Woody may keep that paycheck. He should keep his

mouth shut. Woodson never understands the moment at hand. Or the bigger picture.

What kind of man shows respect for an incompetent loser? How long would you stay at your job if you felt your boss was worthless and holding back you and the company? See, you can leave. Josh tried to. It wasn't really his choice. You can only stare at repeated incompetence so long before you blow up. Which, Josh invariably does because of this. He's a relatively good, humble guy. He wants to be coached. you can hear it in his own words. He just knows Woody is no coach.

Really, it's absurd to me how anyone can defend Mike Woodson.

[HawksFan87]

Josh Smith is a helluva lot better player than Woodson ever was. Woodson is also the worst coach, at any level above high school, that my eyes have ever seen. So, how dare you defend this incompetent lifelong loser. If it weren't for Mike Bibby, in large part, we would be exactly where we were last year. Which is somewhere around the area of really sucking. Now, we just barely suck and Woody may keep that paycheck. He should keep his

mouth shut. Woodson never understands the moment at hand. Or the bigger picture.

What kind of man shows respect for an incompetent loser? How long would you stay at your job if you felt your boss was worthless and holding back you and the company? See, you can leave. Josh tried to. It wasn't really his choice. You can only stare at repeated incompetence so long before you blow up. Which, Josh invariably does because of this. He's a relatively good, humble guy. He wants to be coached. you can hear it in his own words. He just knows Woody is no coach.

Really, it's absurd to me how anyone can defend Mike Woodson.

I concur...

[Swish]

Josh Smith is a helluva lot better player than Woodson ever was. Woodson is also the worst coach, at any level above high school, that my eyes have ever seen. So, how dare you defend this incompetent lifelong loser. If it weren't for Mike Bibby, in large part, we would be exactly where we were last year. Which is somewhere around the area of really sucking. Now, we just barely suck and Woody may keep that paycheck. He should keep his

mouth shut. Woodson never understands the moment at hand. Or the bigger picture.

What kind of man shows respect for an incompetent loser? How long would you stay at your job if you felt your boss was worthless and holding back you and the company? See, you can leave. Josh tried to. It wasn't really his choice. You can only stare at repeated incompetence so long before you blow up. Which, Josh invariably does because of this. He's a relatively good, humble guy. He wants to be coached. you can hear it in his own words. He just knows Woody is no coach.

Really, it's absurd to me how anyone can defend Mike Woodson.

:beathorse:

I'll give you four numbers that can defend him.

41-28.

We've improved every year under Woody and are poised to make a huge jump next year.

[Wretch]

:beathorse:

I'll give you four numbers that can defend him.

41-28.

We've improved every year under Woody and are poised to make a huge jump next year.

I'll see your 4 and raise you 3: .370

Given enough talent, any coach can win. That isn't to say that the players are carrying Woodson, it just that you can give only so much credit to him. It is laughable to point out our improvement as a barometer of his success. There's nowhere to go but up when you are one of the worst teams in the league. And for all the hoopla about how he "led us to the playoffs" last year, we couldn't even clinch our own playoff spot - with multiple shots at it vs. teams we could have beaten.

I'm confident that a better coach could get better results out of this team. In the same way, if you remove Phil Jackson from the Lakers and replace him with Woodson, they don't automatically become a sub .500 team - but I guarantee they wouldn't be sitting atop the West.

On a final note, and I get so tired of saying this, but exactly WHEN do we try to improve our coaching? We have babied this team for so long - afraid to trade players, afraid to trust players with the offense, afraid to change coaches... With the rate of turnover that is expected in the NBA, it is absurd to think that we have kept this AVERAGE AT BEST coach, with a whopping .370 coaching record, over 6 seasons - and some of us want to move forward with him.

The better teams in this league get things done. They understand that the search can be exhaustive, extensive, and even imperfect. Though, where there is room to improve they DO NOT hesitate to do so.

If a battle for homecourt as the 4-6 seed is what we want indefinitely - then Woodson is the man. If we are ever to see the real potential of this team, then it is time for a new coach. Not a rookie coach, or an unproven assistant...but a fresh face, with experience and a name that carries respect.

True, we may not be able to afford that coach now - which I can understand. Though, the minute we can we should do so and not look back.

[frosgrim]

I'll see your 4 and raise you 3: .370

Given enough talent, any coach can win. That isn't to say that the players are carrying Woodson, it just that you can give only so much credit to him. It is laughable to point out our improvement as a barometer of his success. There's nowhere to go but up when you are one of the worst teams in the league. And for all the hoopla about how he "led us to the playoffs" last year, we couldn't even clinch our own playoff spot - with multiple shots at it vs. teams we could have beaten.

I'm confident that a better coach could get better results out of this team. In the same way, if you remove Phil Jackson from the Lakers and replace him with Woodson, they don't automatically become a sub .500 team - but I guarantee they wouldn't be sitting atop the West.

On a final note, and I get so tired of saying this, but exactly WHEN do we try to improve our coaching? We have babied this team for so long - afraid to trade players, afraid to trust players with the offense, afraid to change coaches... With the rate of turnover that is expected in the NBA, it is absurd to think that we have kept this AVERAGE AT BEST coach, with a whopping .370 coaching record, over 6 seasons - and some of us want to move forward with him.

The better teams in this league get things done. They understand that the search can be exhaustive, extensive, and even imperfect. Though, where there is room to improve they DO NOT hesitate to do so.

If a battle for homecourt as the 4-6 seed is what we want indefinitely - then Woodson is the man. If we are ever to see the real potential of this team, then it is time for a new coach. Not a rookie coach, or an unproven assistant...but a fresh face, with experience and a name that carries respect.

True, we may not be able to afford that coach now - which I can understand. Though, the minute we can we should do so and not look back.

co-sign

[gsuteke]

Woodson's career winning % is always going to be a little skewed because he coached those total roster strip downs his 1st couple of years in Atlanta.

I'll judge him by what he does going forward.

[Admin]

I'll see your 4 and raise you 3: .370

Given enough talent, any coach can win. That isn't to say that the players are carrying Woodson, it just that you can give only so much credit to him. It is laughable to point out our improvement as a barometer of his success. There's nowhere to go but up when you are one of the worst teams in the league. And for all the hoopla about how he "led us to the playoffs" last year, we couldn't even clinch our own playoff spot - with multiple shots at it vs. teams we could have beaten.

Fine, let's not give him credit for the improvement or the teams record. I'll give that to all of you if you want if you'll give me one thing.

You're no longer allowed to blame him for the poor record earlier in his career as our head coach because we had an awful roster.

You can only have it one way here either give Woody the credit he deserves or stop bashing Woody for his poor record overall as our coach. Fair enough?

[exodus]

There is plenty of blame to go around. Smith needs to wake the F up and realize that he isn't Rashard or Jason Kidd. I am so sick of watching him jack up long jumpers or trying to lead the break.

But Woody should have put an end to that nonsense long ago. He is just a poor coach. The Hawks offense is nothing but iso after iso. It is a given that boxing out is not stressed at all. Woodys switch everything defense could definitely use some improvement since it so frequently leads to mismatches.

I just think Woody needs to hit the road. It is obvious he isn't going to change.

[thecampster]

:beathorse:

I'll give you four numbers that can defend him.

41-28.

We've improved every year under Woody and are poised to make a huge jump next year.

we've also added flip, bibby, johnson, horford, under woody and everyone as matured (which is only bad in bibby's case.) They've improved inspite of woody. not because of woody.

And it is not a reach assumption. The article clearly states they argue over play calling. Do you honestly think the last shot of any game that has Joe Johnson, Josh Smith, Josh Childress on it should be drawn up for Tyron Lue? If you've never worked for a boss that you felt you were more competent then, than you are extremely lucky. you know I speak from a very unique perspective here. Both of my kids have gone through travel baseball their whole life. Since the age of 6, they've played no less than 60 ballgames a year through high school (the youngest is 15 now). They've practice on average over 100 times a year and played over 60 games a year for 9-12 years (depending on the kid). That means about 2000 practices or games each and they aren't even college level or pro. They've traveled and played in about 10 different states and each has had multiple, multiple coaches. Believe me when I tell you that you don't get to the pro level and not know something. We make fun of the guys and say they have a low BB IQ but by the time they are 20, these pro athletes have played more BB than most of us ever watch and remember it hasn't been only Josh. Woodson has clashed repeatedly with other players as marked in the article. It's safe to assume that philosophy is most probably the subject matter. None of them want to lose. They are professionals.

[Dexmethylphenidate]

Why didn't this get out when Sunds was going around asking opinions on the team? Woody would've been long gone if Josh Smith speaks up.

[Vesper]

Josh Smith is a helluva lot better player than Woodson ever was. Woodson is also the worst coach, at any level above high school, that my eyes have ever seen. So, how dare you defend this incompetent lifelong loser. If it weren't for Mike Bibby, in large part, we would be exactly where we were last year. Which is somewhere around the area of really sucking. Now, we just barely suck and Woody may keep that paycheck. He should keep his

mouth shut. Woodson never understands the moment at hand. Or the bigger picture.

What kind of man shows respect for an incompetent loser? How long would you stay at your job if you felt your boss was worthless and holding back you and the company? See, you can leave. Josh tried to. It wasn't really his choice. You can only stare at repeated incompetence so long before you blow up. Which, Josh invariably does because of this. He's a relatively good, humble guy. He wants to be coached. you can hear it in his own words. He just knows Woody is no coach.

Really, it's absurd to me how anyone can defend Mike Woodson.

Woody was a pretty good player.

The 50-year-old Woodson has over two decades of NBA experience as a player and coach, and served three seasons as an assistant under Brown in both Philadelphia (2001-03) and Detroit. He also worked as an assistant coach with the Cleveland Cavaliers (1999-01) and the Milwaukee Bucks (1996-99).

One of the chief architects behind the Pistons’ suffocating defensive effort during the 2003-04 season, Detroit held the opposition to 84.3 points per game that year, which equaled the league’s best total defensively (along with San Antonio). In addition, the Pistons’ point differential of +5.84 was the second-best in the NBA and they limited opponents to 41.4 field goal shooting, the league’s third-best performance. During their 23 postseason games, Detroit intensified their efforts defensively, holding teams to 80.7 ppg and 39.2 FG shooting, and in the five-game Finals series against Los Angeles, the Pistons kept the Lakers more than 16 points under their regular season average and hounded them into shooting 41 percent from the floor.

The 11-year veteran and 6-5 guard played for seven teams in the NBA after he was selected in the first round of the 1980 Draft by the New York Knicks with the 12th overall pick. In 786 career games, Woodson averaged 14.0 points (10.981 career points), 2.3 rebounds and 2.3 assists in 25.5 minutes, enjoying his best season in 1982-83 when he played for the then-Kansas City Kings and posted 18.2 points per game.

In addition to the Knicks and Kings (both in Kansas City and Sacramento), Woodson also played with New Jersey, the Los Angeles Clippers, Houston and Cleveland, before retiring from the game in 1991. His teams advanced to the playoffs five times, where he averaged 12.2 ppg, 2.6 apg and 2.3 rpg.

[jhay610]

And it is not a reach assumption. It's safe to assume that philosophy is most probably the subject matter. None of them want to lose. They are professionals.

I'm sure Josh was upset that the play was drawn for Lue; I would be to. But to take that incident as a basis to assume a conflict in basic offensive philosophy is a reach, in my opinion.

If anything I would bet that Josh be more inclined to champion a guard-oriented offense because he thinks he is one.

[Admin]

we've also added flip, bibby, johnson, horford, under woody and everyone as matured (which is only bad in bibby's case.) They've improved inspite of woody. not because of woody.

And it is not a reach assumption. The article clearly states they argue over play calling. Do you honestly think the last shot of any game that has Joe Johnson, Josh Smith, Josh Childress on it should be drawn up for Tyron Lue? If you've never worked for a boss that you felt you were more competent then, than you are extremely lucky. you know I speak from a very unique perspective here. Both of my kids have gone through travel baseball their whole life. Since the age of 6, they've played no less than 60 ballgames a year through high school (the youngest is 15 now). They've practice on average over 100 times a year and played over 60 games a year for 9-12 years (depending on the kid). That means about 2000 practices or games each and they aren't even college level or pro. They've traveled and played in about 10 different states and each has had multiple, multiple coaches. Believe me when I tell you that you don't get to the pro level and not know something. We make fun of the guys and say they have a low BB IQ but by the time they are 20, these pro athletes have played more BB than most of us ever watch and remember it hasn't been only Josh. Woodson has clashed repeatedly with other players as marked in the article. It's safe to assume that philosophy is most probably the subject matter. None of them want to lose. They are professionals.

1. I can absolutely see an end of the game play being drawn up for T-Lue. I believe he was our best 3pt shooter and perhaps clutch shooter at the time and most teams would think we'd be looking for Joe in that situation so there's a good chance Lue would be open. What did Josh want, the play to be drawn up for him?

2. It was a reach assumption for you to assume that Smith wants to play inside out while Woody wants to play outside in. Most people think that Woody doesn't have a clue offensively and I tend to agree with that for the most part but you're suggesting that Woody actually has a plan when you talk about his philosophy being a certain way offensively.

3. Woody has clashed with Josh Smith, Salim Stoudamire, and Anthony Johnson. Was there anyone else I have missed? Both Josh and Salim are KNOWN hot-heads, especially Salim who I believe was suspended in college because of his attitude. Regarding Anthony Johnson I can't remember what happened there but it could have been a legitimate beef. Even Josh's and Salim's may have been legitimate beefs and assuming that all 3 were that's only 3 players out of how many in Woody's 5 years?

I'm not claiming that Woody is a great coach by any means but for anyone to think he's the reason for the dust ups with those players is highly unfair.

[Admin]

If anything I would bet that Josh be more inclined to champion a guard-oriented offense because he thinks he is one.

Well done! :beer:

[thecampster]

Well done! :beer:

Pachulia and Acie Law too

[HawksFan87]

We're winning more because of our players.. Not because of Woody's amazing coaching skills...