Vick getting a bad deal.

[Traceman]

No thanks, we already have Pat White for the Wildcat who is much younger and is at this point probably a better runner than Vick and is far and away a better passer.

The Vikings would be scary good with him and he'd clearly be the best QB on their team.

I can see him end up in Washington or New England though without a doubt.

I could be wrong but I think Vick has that "Deion Sanders / Darrell Green" speed in that he is just naturally fast. I think Vick will be running a sub 4.4 40 well into his late 30's. Even if he loses two steps, he is going to be faster than most DBs. Pat White is a very good, possibly great, runner but he is no Mike Vick in terms of speed and elusiveness. I'm sure he is more accuarate than Vick as a passer though.

[Admin]

I could be wrong but I think Vick has that "Deion Sanders / Darrell Green" speed in that he is just naturally fast. I think Vick will be running a sub 4.4 40 well into his late 30's. Even if he loses two steps, he is going to be faster than most DBs. Pat White is a very good, possibly great, runner but he is no Mike Vick in terms of speed and elusiveness. I'm sure he is more accuarate than Vick as a passer though.

I know that Vick did have that speed and as rookies Vick was clearly more gifted but I highly doubt that he still has those abilities now.

If he can run sub 4.40 then he'd be slightly faster than White who ran a 4.48 at the combine.

But the bottom line is that Miami won't be looking at Vick since we used a high pick on White.

[Traceman]

I know that Vick did have that speed and as rookies Vick was clearly more gifted but I highly doubt that he still has those abilities now.

If he can run sub 4.40 then he'd be slightly faster than White who ran a 4.48 at the combine.

But the bottom line is that Miami won't be looking at Vick since we used a high pick on White.

I agree that the Dolphins won't be looking at him after spending a high draft pick on White and I don't blame them. That said, there is a significant difference between a 4.48 and a 4.39.

[Admin]

I agree that the Dolphins won't be looking at him after spending a high draft pick on White and I don't blame them. That said, there is a significant difference between a 4.48 and a 4.39.

I could see a significant difference with a WR since they actually get a chance to reach top end speed but for a QB who in most situations as a Wildcat QB is either running up the gut, handing off, or faking the run and passing I don't think a tenth of a second makes much of a difference unless he actually breaks out into the secondary and then it might make a difference.

I'd be surprised if Vick can still run a sub 4.40 40 though.

[Traceman]

I could see a significant difference with a WR since they actually get a chance to reach top end speed but for a QB who in most situations as a Wildcat QB is either running up the gut, handing off, or faking the run and passing I don't think a tenth of a second makes much of a difference unless he actually breaks out into the secondary and then it might make a difference.

I'd be surprised if Vick can still run a sub 4.40 40 though.

I won't. He was running in the 4.2's early in his career. Guys like him, Deion, Darrell Green and Joey Galloway are not normal. I'll bet Deion could get out of bed and run a 4.48 right now.

[APE]

I won't. He was running in the 4.2's early in his career. Guys like him, Deion, Darrell Green and Joey Galloway are not normal. I'll bet Deion could get out of bed and run a 4.48 right now.

If he could get his foot out of his moth...

[KB21]

That is why Minnesota makes so much sense to me. He could actually be a long-term solution in Minnesota versus a change of pace guy in NE, etc.

A team would be a fool to make Michael Vick their quarterback at this point. He's a terrible passer, and the league has proven that run first quarterbacks do not have success at the NFL level. The only way Vick plays, IMO, is as a single wing quarterback or at a position where athleticism is a more important trait than passing ability.

[AHF]

A team would be a fool to make Michael Vick their quarterback at this point. He's a terrible passer, and the league has proven that run first quarterbacks do not have success at the NFL level. The only way Vick plays, IMO, is as a single wing quarterback or at a position where athleticism is a more important trait than passing ability.

Yes, clearly I would rather go with Tavaris Jackson or Sage Rosenfels because those guys are such good passers. /sarcasm Minnesota has jack crap for QB prospects and won't be picking any elite QBs in the draft anytime soon unless they get lucky with someone who falls.

The fact is that the NFL has had literally hundreds of pocket passers and probably less than 20 guys who have been "run-first" QBs over the last several decades. It is not a large enough sample size to be proven that run first QBs can't succeed at the NFL level. Vick has gone to an NFC Title game which is as far as a lot of very good pocket passers have gone and a lot further than guys like Jay Cutler, Drew Brees, etc.

That said, I would certainly rather invest my money in a Matt Ryan than a Michael Vick. However, Vick has enough of an arm to be worth a gamble for a team that has very few resources at that position, IMO. Minnesota is one such team and a team with the OL and RB to make for a dynamic rushing offense with Harvin and Vick added to the team.

[Diesel]

I could see a significant difference with a WR since they actually get a chance to reach top end speed but for a QB who in most situations as a Wildcat QB is either running up the gut, handing off, or faking the run and passing I don't think a tenth of a second makes much of a difference unless he actually breaks out into the secondary and then it might make a difference.

I'd be surprised if Vick can still run a sub 4.40 40 though.

Obviously, you missed Vick at Va Tech and his years with the Falcons. We're talking about him as if he's a running back, but the guy has a helluva arm, he's just not accurate. I say you get him with a good QB coach, you get him some short yardage pass plays.. and you play him like Frisco played Young. If he goes to a power house like the Vikings and get good training on his accuracy, they could be good for the next 4 years.

[APE]

Obviously, you missed Vick at Va Tech and his years with the Falcons. We're talking about him as if he's a running back, but the guy has a helluva arm, he's just not accurate. I say you get him with a good QB coach, you get him some short yardage pass plays.. and you play him like Frisco played Young. If he goes to a power house like the Vikings and get good training on his accuracy, they could be good for the next 4 years.

Shouldn't that "Training on his accuracy" have been done before he entered the NFL :rolleyes:

[CBAreject]

The way I remember this whole thing was that Vick was suspended indefinitely by the NFL when he was convicted. It was understood that his suspension would be re-evaluated at the time that his jail sentence ended. I remember this well, as there was much discussion over what exactly was meant by this. The NFL could've justifiably banned Vick for life, but that wasn't their decision. It was indefinite suspension. Now that his jail sentence is up, the NFL can play this however they like.

I understand that most of you probably don't remember what was said, since it was fully 2 years ago when this whole thing was in the news. I don't see how whatever is done now is unfair, or how "Goodell didn't keep up his end", since the fact that the NFL didn't ban Vick for life was seen as lenient at that time.

To AHF's question of the necessity of the suspension, it was put in place so that the NFL could do whatever they saw fit (and whatever the public would abide) after the jail sentence was over.

Edited August 3, 2009 by CBAreject

[Diesel]

The way I remember this whole thing was that Vick was suspended indefinitely by the NFL when he was convicted. It was understood that his suspension would be re-evaluated at the time that his jail sentence ended. I remember this well, as there was much discussion over what exactly was meant by this. The NFL could've justifiably banned Vick for life, but that wasn't their decision. It was indefinite suspension. Now that his jail sentence is up, the NFL can play this however they like.

I understand that most of you probably don't remember what was said, since it was fully 2 years ago when this whole thing was in the news. I don't see how whatever is done now is unfair, or how "Goodell didn't keep up his end", since the fact that the NFL didn't ban Vick for life was seen as lenient at that time.

To AHF's question of the necessity of the suspension, it was put in place so that the NFL could do whatever they saw fit (and whatever the public would abide) after the jail sentence was over.

My problem with the matter is Goodell. It was his indefinite suspension in the first place. My question is does he really represent the wishes of the NFL? I think he's a man who is working without checks and balances and this deal with Vick is just another instance of him abusing his power as commish. The idea that a six-game suspension could accomplish what a two-year prison sentence could not is laughable. Vick’s crimes were horrible, but what does the suspension do besides hinder his attempt at a comeback? This is not to say the commissioner’s power to suspend players should be revoked. Instead, I believe it should be applied to protect the integrity of the game, not as a supplement to the country’s legal system. If, though, Goodell wishes to continue to use his power to punish lawbreakers, it would at least be beneficial for him to set down guidelines for punishment. Currently, players are caught in a kind of limbo—they have no idea how the league will punish them for their infractions.

One thing that Goodell can do if he wants to really look even handed is do something about Spygate other than ignore it and cover it up.

[Admin]

Obviously, you missed Vick at Va Tech and his years with the Falcons. We're talking about him as if he's a running back, but the guy has a helluva arm, he's just not accurate. I say you get him with a good QB coach, you get him some short yardage pass plays.. and you play him like Frisco played Young. If he goes to a power house like the Vikings and get good training on his accuracy, they could be good for the next 4 years.

I guess you don't realize the numbers that Pat White put up at WVU but they were at least comparable in college although I see an overall advantage to what White did, especially being the 1st QB to ever win 4 bowl games. Granted Vick came out after his redshirt sophomore year so White had 2 more years as a starting QB but I don't know that Vick would have gotten much better in college than he was when he came out.

And yeah I saw Vick with the Falcons. He was a strong armed QB that gave up on the play and looked to run far too often and when he did throw the ball he made a lot of terrible decisions with the ball. He wasn't/isn't half the QB that Matt Ryan was as a rookie.

But back to Vick vs White check out their numbers in Vick's 2 seasons vs White's final 2 seasons. And sorry the formatting sucks but here it is:

http://www.thephinsi...vs-michael-vick

  Pat White                                

              Comp     Att     Comp %     Passing        TD     INT     Carries        Rushing       TD

  2007    144        216    66.7              1724         14        4         197           1335          14

  2008    180        274    65.7              1842         21        7         191             974            8


Michael Vick                                    

  1999      90        153    58.8              1840          12        5        110              580           8

  2000      97        179    54.2              1439            9        7        113              636           9

  [/code]

[AHF]

On Vick's arm, if Pat White had Vick's arm strength he would have been a no-brainer first round pick. Vick has never had Pat's accuracy but there are a lot of accurate college QBs that aren't considered pro material. Vick's arm strength was a standout asset in addition to his legs. It is his failure to develop touch that led to his failures at QB, such as they were.

On the suspension, the NFL has discretion on this (at least as far as permitted under the collective bargaining agreement with the players). I am just second-guessing the consistency of the decision on Vick with other cases and question whether this would be happening if it wasn't such a public relations nightmare for the NFL with everything that went on during his case. I think reasonable minds can differ on this and don't blame anyone who feels that the indefinite suspesion should be extended into the season.

I just don't think anyone should believe the league when it says the suspension isn't being lifted to allow Vick to participate in the opening games of the season "solely for the benefit of Mike Vick." It isn't for Vick - it is for PR reasons for the NFL. The public relations are bad enough that the Union won't challenge the NFL on this but I do expect a showdown at some point over the increasing power of the Commish in disciplinary matters.

[Admin]

On Vick's arm, if Pat White had Vick's arm strength he would have been a no-brainer first round pick. Vick has never had Pat's accuracy but there are a lot of accurate college QBs that aren't considered pro material. Vick's arm strength was a standout asset in addition to his legs. It is his failure to develop touch that led to his failures at QB, such as they were.

On the suspension, the NFL has discretion on this (at least as far as permitted under the collective bargaining agreement with the players). I am just second-guessing the consistency of the decision on Vick with other cases and question whether this would be happening if it wasn't such a public relations nightmare for the NFL with everything that went on during his case. I think reasonable minds can differ on this and don't blame anyone who feels that the indefinite suspesion should be extended into the season.

I just don't think anyone should believe the league when it says the suspension isn't being lifted to allow Vick to participate in the opening games of the season "solely for the benefit of Mike Vick." It isn't for Vick - it is for PR reasons for the NFL. The public relations are bad enough that the Union won't challenge the NFL on this but I do expect a showdown at some point over the increasing power of the Commish in disciplinary matters.

Vick definitely has the stronger arm, probably one of the strongest ever, and he might be the fastest QB ever. It's his decision making and like you said failure to develop touch that hurt him. I'm not sure what type of leader he is on the field either. I know that he is "awe inspiring" but is he "inspiring" in general?

I also think this is about PR and this is the NFL's way of saying "this is what happens when you embarrass us" without forcing Vick to go play in another league for a season. This way he only sits out through week 6 and then he can come in and be the big story for a month or so.

[Traceman]

Vick definitely has the stronger arm, probably one of the strongest ever, and he might be the fastest QB ever. It's his decision making and like you said failure to develop touch that hurt him. I'm not sure what type of leader he is on the field either. I know that he is "awe inspiring" but is he "inspiring" in general?

I also think this is about PR and this is the NFL's way of saying "this is what happens when you embarrass us" without forcing Vick to go play in another league for a season. This way he only sits out through week 6 and then he can come in and be the big story for a month or so.

I think it is pretty safe to say that Vick was the fastest QB ever. I can't think of one with close to his speed.

You are right on regarding the things that kept him from being the player he was capable of being. He made TERRIBLE decisions at times and it was amazing to me that he seemed incapable of making touch throws. The thing that frustrated me most about him was his absolute REFUSAL to protect the ball when he started running. If he could have just eliminated the fumbles, he would have taken his game to a whole new level.

I think he was DEFINITELY inspiring to his teammates. I remember Brooking saying that even if the defense was dead tired, they always felt that if they could somehow get the ball back for Vick, he was going to make a play and win the game.

[Admin]

I think it is pretty safe to say that Vick was the fastest QB ever. I can't think of one with close to his speed.

You are right on regarding the things that kept him from being the player he was capable of being. He made TERRIBLE decisions at times and it was amazing to me that he seemed incapable of making touch throws. The thing that frustrated me most about him was his absolute REFUSAL to protect the ball when he started running. If he could have just eliminated the fumbles, he would have taken his game to a whole new level.

I think he was DEFINITELY inspiring to his teammates. I remember Brooking saying that even if the defense was dead tired, they always felt that if they could somehow get the ball back for Vick, he was going to make a play and win the game.

I will say this about Vick, he made playing Madden a hell of a lot more fun if you were the team with Vick.

Who do you think is the more inspirational/better leader? Vick or Ryan?

[Traceman]

I will say this about Vick, he made playing Madden a hell of a lot more fun if you were the team with Vick.

Who do you think is the more inspirational/better leader? Vick or Ryan?

I think Ryan is CLEARLY the better leader due to his vastly superior work ethic and overall superior leadership qualities. He sets a great example for his teammates on and off the field and they know that he will be pepared for most situations that arise. That said, it's still early but Ryan could end up being a leader of Tom Brady-like proportions and those don't come along very often.

Vick's leadership was based on his the awe he inspired in his teammates due to his physical gifts. I don't think any of them were inspired by the example he set or by his work ethic. They saw him do things that no one else could do and it inspired confidence that he could get the job done. No telling how great he could have been if he had half of Ryan's work ethic but he obviously didn't.

[KB21]

Vick failed as a quarterback because he lacks the one thing that is most important for quarterbacks - a quarterback's mind. It's the same thing with all the other run first quarterbacks. Pat White is going to face the same thing, but at least he's going to be playing a role that accentuates his athleticism and limits the need for him to make decisions.

[AHF]

Vick failed as a quarterback because he lacks the one thing that is most important for quarterbacks - a quarterback's mind. It's the same thing with all the other run first quarterbacks. Pat White is going to face the same thing, but at least he's going to be playing a role that accentuates his athleticism and limits the need for him to make decisions.

That runs into a problem of definitions, though, if you are looking at running QBs in that light. As soon as a QB becomes someone with a developed QB's mind, he no longer is a running QB by that definition - ala Steve Young, Donovan McNabb, Fran Tarkington, etc.