Slamonline.com: Joe Johnson 20th best player in NBA

[TheNorthCydeRises]

http://www.slamonline.com/online/blogs/the-links/2009/10/top-50-joe-johnson-no-20/

Basic fluff piece about JJ. Their top 50 is interesting though. I like how they're doing one player a day. With Josh Smith being ranked, that gives the Hawks 2 of the top 50 players in the league this upcoming season, according to them.

It'll be interesting to see the guards they have ranked above JJ. I think Derrick Rose is going to be one of the surprise guards they already have in the top 20.

[AHF]

Rose is very promising but isn't there yet. He really impressed with his highlights but his actual numbers aren't all that great and he is a terrible defender at this point in his career. He has upside all over the place, but if you are talking about where people stand today then he shouldn't be that high.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Can't disagree with anything you said. But you know how these sportswriters are with these lists. Rose's playoff performance probably has some of them believing that he'll average 25 pts and 8 assists this season.

[frankthetank966]

Nice. He is infront of some impressive players: Harris, Allen,Arenas and NASH!

[Plainview1981]

http://www.slamonline.com/online/blogs/the-links/2009/10/top-50-joe-johnson-no-20/

Basic fluff piece about JJ. Their top 50 is interesting though. I like how they're doing one player a day. With Josh Smith being ranked, that gives the Hawks 2 of the top 50 players in the league this upcoming season, according to them.

It'll be interesting to see the guards they have ranked above JJ. I think Derrick Rose is going to be one of the surprise guards they already have in the top 20.

If they watched him play last year they would know this questionable. I laugh at people that post vid's of game 4 a few years ago. His 10 little minutes of fame in a playoff career that has mostly been mediocre.

Even guys like Kevin Durant and Granger.... JJ can see these players right in his mirror. Durant is already a more explosive player. JJ is slipping as a scorer and shooter (percentage wise).

Edited October 2, 2009 by Hotlanta1981

[DrReality]

So that means he doesn't get the super star contract????

[lethalweapon3]

So that means he doesn't get the super star contract????

Joe gets the "We-can't-sign-a-Super-Star-so-we'll-gladly-settle-for-you" contract. What that amounts to in $$$$, we shall see.

~lw3

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Joe gets the "We-can't-sign-a-Super-Star-so-we'll-gladly-settle-for-you" contract. What that amounts to in $$$$, we shall see.

~lw3

You maybe have 5 or so 'elite' players in the league . . ( Kobe, Lebron, Wade, Duncan,

with maybe the next 5 being 'semi-elite' . .

after that, you have 10 - 15 all-star caliber players who are very good, but only show elite level ability once every blue moon. This is JJ's group.

Now if one of those 10 - 15 guys is playing alongside an elite, semi-elite, or all-star, then they'll get paid "what their worth".

But if a guy is the lone all-star on the team, he usually gets 'semi-elite' money ( 16 - 18 million ).

[buckeye242424]

You maybe have 5 or so 'elite' players in the league . . ( Kobe, Lebron, Wade, Duncan,

with maybe the next 5 being 'semi-elite' . .

after that, you have 10 - 15 all-star caliber players who are very good, but only show elite level ability once every blue moon. This is JJ's group.

Now if one of those 10 - 15 guys is playing alongside an elite, semi-elite, or all-star, then they'll get paid "what their worth".

But if a guy is the lone all-star on the team, he usually gets 'semi-elite' money ( 16 - 18 million ).

Would you put Jamal Crawford in this group? LOL But, scoring 50+ is elite level ability, especially three times - with the company he's in!

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Would you put Jamal Crawford in this group? LOL But, scoring 50+ is elite level ability, especially three times - with the company he's in!

LOL . . last year, Crawford went 3 - 15 FG in Atlanta, for 6 points, the night before he dropped 50 on Charlotte. The dude is either red hot, or ice cold. Hardly no in between with Crawford.

Salim Stoudamire once scored 25 in the 4th quarter. ( I think it was 25. I'm referring to the game in New Orleans back in 2006, where the Hawks were damn near down 30 in the 4th quarter, but he starts bombing away to bring us within 1 point . . . I think we lost that game by 3 )

Does that make Salim elite?

Nah . . it just makes him hella streaky.

If Salim was 6-5, he'd be a Jamal Crawford clone.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

If Salim was 6-5, he'd be a Jamal Crawford clone.

LOL . . don't believe me? Well take a look at each player's Per 36 minute career stars.

( the bad thing about this, is that I knew they were similar before looking this up . . . but not THIS CLOSE!!! )

SALIM'S PER 36 #s

pts - 17

rebs - 2.9

asst - 2.2

stls - 0.7

turn - 2.1

FG% - 40.7

3FG% - 36.6

FT% - 88.2

JAMAL'S PER 36 #s

pts - 16.8

rebs - 3.0

asst - 4.6

stls - 1.2

turn - 2.3

FG% - 40.4

3FG% - 34.7

FT% - 84.3

When you look at these numbers, the only difference between Salim and Jamal, is that Jamal is by far the better playmaker.

But from a shooting standpoint, Salim is slightly BETTER. In general, they're both . . .

- streaky as hell as shooters

- settle for way too many long jumpers

- shows little defensive awareness ( Salim is better defensively if you ask me )

- haven't shown the ability to guard their man efficiently

A lot of people are thinking we're getting this steal of a player in Crawford. We will see. All I know is that he has a reputation of having the worst shot selection in the NBA.

If he plays efficient basketball in Atlanta, Woody might be a Coach of the Year candidate.

Crawford is more JR Rider, than he is Joe Johnson. But he's most like his "4-inch shorter, separated at birth" twin brother . . . Salim.

Edited October 3, 2009 by northcyde

[Buzzard]

LOL . . don't believe me? Well take a look at each player's Per 36 minute career stars.

( the bad thing about this, is that I knew they were similar before looking this up . . . but not THIS CLOSE!!! )

SALIM'S PER 36 #s

pts - 17

rebs - 2.9

asst - 2.2

stls - 0.7

turn - 2.1

FG% - 40.7

3FG% - 36.6

FT% - 88.2

JAMAL'S PER 36 #s

pts - 16.8

rebs - 3.0

asst - 4.6

stls - 1.2

turn - 2.3

FG% - 40.4

3FG% - 34.7

FT% - 84.3

When you look at these numbers, the only difference between Salim and Jamal, is that Jamal is by far the better playmaker.

But from a shooting standpoint, Salim is slightly BETTER. In general, they're both . . .

- streaky as hell as shooters

- settle for way too many long jumpers

- shows little defensive awareness ( Salim is better defensively if you ask me )

- haven't shown the ability to guard their man efficiently

A lot of people are thinking we're getting this steal of a player in Crawford. We will see. All I know is that he has a reputation of having the worst shot selection in the NBA.

If he plays efficient basketball in Atlanta, Woody might be a Coach of the Year candidate.

Crawford is more JR Rider, than he is Joe Johnson. But he's most like his "4-inch shorter, separated at birth" twin brother . . . Salim.

Here is what bugs the hell out me about pers: you judge a guy who has been a starter his whole career against some scrub who played 10 minutes a night against the other teams bench. You are insane if you think Salim could average 20 pts a game agains a starting NBA unit over a whole season...I dont give a crap what your pers say; that is just crazy as hell to use pers in this manner.

Now if you compare Crawford against a 6th or 7th man who averages 22 to 32 minutes a game, of which half or more will be against starters; you have a nice aurgument. Otherwise leave the scrub pers to comparisons against other scrubs LMAO...

Edited October 4, 2009 by Buzzard

[KDT88]

Here is what bugs the hell out me about pers: you judge a guy who has been a starter his whole career against some scrub who played 10 minutes a night against the other teams bench. You are insane if you think Salim could average 20 pts a game agains a starting NBA unit over a whole season...I dont give a crap what your pers say; that is just crazy as hell to use pers in this manner.

Now if you compare Crawford against a 6th or 7th man who averages 22 to 32 minutes a game, of which half or more will be against starters; you have a nice aurgument. Otherwise leave the scrub pers to comparisons against other scrubs LMAO...

I'm with you....now all I need is a response from the person you were debating with....

[AHF]

Here is what bugs the hell out me about pers: you judge a guy who has been a starter his whole career against some scrub who played 10 minutes a night against the other teams bench. You are insane if you think Salim could average 20 pts a game agains a starting NBA unit over a whole season...I dont give a crap what your pers say; that is just crazy as hell to use pers in this manner.

Now if you compare Crawford against a 6th or 7th man who averages 22 to 32 minutes a game, of which half or more will be against starters; you have a nice aurgument. Otherwise leave the scrub pers to comparisons against other scrubs LMAO...

I was going to make that point as well, but the numbers are still eerily similar. Makes you wonder why Salim is out of the league if he was that productive in his limited minutes. Especially when someone like JJ Redick with vastly inferior scoring production is still hanging around and getting regular playing time (Redick per 36 is 13.3 for the career and 12.3 for last season).

[thefloydian]

Isn't Crawford a good bit bigger than Salim? Salim is a SG in a PG's body. A defensive liability. I'm sure Crawford isn't an amazing defender, but he's probably a good bit better than Stoudemire.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

@KDT:

I have to admit that I DO NOT LIKE JAMAL CRAWFORD!!!

But he's a Hawk, and my love for this team goes beyond my like or dislike for ANY PLAYER on this squad. And that includes Joe Johnson. So I'll support Jamal . . until he starts selling us out. Hopefully, he won't do that on most nights.

Those PER 36 stats are the reason I don't like him. The shooting percentages don't lie. They're not that low because he's playing against starters. They're that low because he TAKES HORRIBLE SHOTS.

For a guy that has the ability to take his man off the dribble almost anytime he wants to, he'd rather settle for that inconsistent jumper of his. A jumper that he'll even take off balance from 20 - 25 feet away. The bad thing, is that he'll hit that type of shot on occasion, even when fouled.

It's like a Josh Smith 3-pointer in the 1st quarter. You're glad he made the shot, but you cringe, because you know he's jacking up at least 3 more.

And exactly what Salim used to do. Take long jumpers and tough, off-balanced shots, merely because he has the ability to make those types of shots on occasion. Not consistently though.

That's why teams ( good teams ) have never gone after Crawford, until we did. If he plays efficient b-ball with the Hawks, I'm giving Woody a ton of credit.

I'll say this about Salim though. He didn't have a bench player mentality. He had a #1 guy mentality. If Salim was the best scorer on a real bad team, and had the green light to shoot anytime he wanted, he could average close to 20 ppg, because he'd be able to create enough space to take his jumper.

Now granted, his FG shooting % would probably be between 38 - 40%, but he'd have nights where he'd literally explode on people to keep that average up.

@ AHF:

Redick should definitely be out the league. Unless he can become Steve Kerr next year, that's probably his fate.

Salim's height kills him though. Maybe if he were 6 - 3, he'd might have a chance to stick around in this league. I think he's a better player than Redick. But Redick is 6 - 4 ( i think ), and that helps him a lot. You'd think Salim should at least be able to play an Eddie House type role, but he takes too many bad shots and is too streaky of a shooter.

@ Floyd:

[Buzzard]

@KDT:

I'll say this about Salim though. He didn't have a bench player mentality. He had a #1 guy mentality. If Salim was the best scorer on a real bad team, and had the green light to shoot anytime he wanted, he could average close to 20 ppg, because he'd be able to create enough space to take his jumper.

Now granted, his FG shooting % would probably be between 38 - 40%, but he'd have nights where he'd literally explode on people to keep that average up.

@ AHF:

Redick should definitely be out the league. Unless he can become Steve Kerr next year, that's probably his fate.

Salim's height kills him though. Maybe if he were 6 - 3, he'd might have a chance to stick around in this league. I think he's a better player than Redick. But Redick is 6 - 4 ( i think ), and that helps him a lot. You'd think Salim should at least be able to play an Eddie House type role, but he takes too many bad shots and is too streaky of a shooter.

There's a lot of people not in the NBA who can shoot a basketball; but they can't defend, they can't rebound, they can't pass, and they can't hold on to the ball. I think Salim meets all those can't requirements.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Well by that criteria Buzzard, Crawford can't defend ( known as a bad defender ), can't shoot ( cause he's so streaky ), can't rebound ( probably the lowest rebound rate for a guys his size in the league ), and doesn't get to the FT line ( because he depends on the jumper so much ).

The problem with Salim on the Hawks, is that we couldn't afford to give him 6 - 8 shots a game, to see if he were hot. With Salim, he had to come in the game at least making one of his first two shots, to justify him staying in the game. So if he starts out 1 - 5 FG, he becomes a liability, because he couldn't do other things to justify him being on the floor.

When Salim got 20+ minutes in a game, it was either because someone was hurt, or because he was making shots. But when he was making shots, he wasn't afraid at all to take that shot from anywhere. For a guy as inefficient as he was, he was an EXTREMELY confident player.

Those are all of the traits of Jamal Crawford.

LOL . . and that's why I said at the time of the Jamal trade, that Jamal might get Woody fired. If Jamal misses his first 4 shots in a game, Woody either has to tell him to go into "playmaker mode" or take him out of the game altogether.

Because if he's cold, and you leave him in, you can't depend on him making it up on the defensive end or crashing the boards. He's not an "intangible" type player or a player that is known for doing "the little things".

He's merely a scorer. Not a SHOOTER, but a scorer. And if he's not scoring, he's damn near useless on the court. My hope is that Jamal doesn't look to score 20 ppg, but to score an EFFICIENT 13 - 15 ppg. I'd be estatic to see him average 14 ppg - 5 asst - 44% FG - 39% 3FG.

That would be a GREAT SEASON for him in my book.

[Buzzard]

Well by that criteria Buzzard, Crawford can't defend ( known as a bad defender ), can't shoot ( cause he's so streaky ), can't rebound ( probably the lowest rebound rate for a guys his size in the league ), and doesn't get to the FT line ( because he depends on the jumper so much ).

Those are all of the traits of Jamal Crawford.

LOL . . and that's why I said at the time of the Jamal trade, that Jamal might get Woody fired. If Jamal misses his first 4 shots in a game, Woody either has to tell him to go into "playmaker mode" or take him out of the game altogether.

Because if he's cold, and you leave him in, you can't depend on him making it up on the defensive end or crashing the boards. He's not an "intangible" type player or a player that is known for doing "the little things".

He's merely a scorer. Not a SHOOTER, but a scorer. And if he's not scoring, he's damn near useless on the court. My hope is that Jamal doesn't look to score 20 ppg, but to score an EFFICIENT 13 - 15 ppg. I'd be estatic to see him average 14 ppg - 5 asst - 44% FG - 39% 3FG.

That would be a GREAT SEASON for him in my book.

You left out some important mentioned criteria....Salim "can't pass" and "can't hold on to the ball ". His TO ratio is way over what Crawfords' is despite playing not even half the minutes Crawford does.

Crawfords' intangible is his passing and ball handling. We only hoped Salim would develop into a suitable ball handler. Crawford is one...and give me Crawford with his length and height over Salim any day guarding a NBA level guard.

Yes I would say Crawfords' ball handling skills to go along with his streaky scoring, height and length are the reasons he is a multi year starter in the NBA. If Salim could at least play defense or possesed average to above average ball handling skills he could very well still be in the league...