Is Teague getting the "Acie treatment"?

[BusBoyIsBack]

People have to keep in mind how sensational Jamal Crawford has been. Teague's minutes will come in due time

[spotatl]

I think that Joe had 6 turnovers because The Kings really have no one who is a good matchup for him and the Hawks were running the offense through him. I don't think it has anything at all to do with the fact he played an extra 6 minutes 2 nights ago when the season is just 5 games old. Seriously- you think thats the reason he had turnovers!?

I don't think there is any meaningful difference between 32 and 36 minutes in any individual game. Honestly I think that Joe's exhaustion level probably has a ton more to do with who he is asked to guard than how many minutes he plays.

[sillent]

Teague is 5 games in out of 82 in his rookie year. And, we're on an early season west coast swing trying to set the tone for the season by being able to consistently win on the road. His minutes will increase. He's shown too much promise.

Thank You, buckeye for beating me to it. I'm sure we all would like to see our "prize rookie" who happens to play the position we been waiting for for years. Woody is currently trying to mold us from being good to great and is doing it the safest way possible. Once our team learns how to win easier it will be easier to allow the learning process to be on the court. For now Teague has to stay hungry and learn as much as he can from the bench and practice. We all know Bibby is on the decline and we have a player in Crawford that can take his place but may be better suited as fire power off the bench for this team. So Teague has to eventually get a legitimate chance but Teague and fans alike have to be patient. Teague is only 21 so he is going to have plenty of time to play in this league.

Edited November 5, 2009 by sillent

[exodus]

I think that Joe had 6 turnovers because The Kings really have no one who is a good matchup for him and the Hawks were running the offense through him. I don't think it has anything at all to do with the fact he played an extra 6 minutes 2 nights ago when the season is just 5 games old. Seriously- you think thats the reason he had turnovers!?

LOL

First of all the hawks have run their offense through JJ ever since he has been here . Secondly the Portland game was the previous day. He played 46 minutes and expended a lot of energy guarding Roy down the stretch.

If you don't think guys get tired playing basketball then I don't even know what to say.

I don't think there is any meaningful difference between 32 and 36

But there is a pretty big difference between 32 and 46.

Edited November 5, 2009 by exodus

[Traceman]

This summer the Woody apologists were saying that JJ had to play big minutes last year because JJ didn't have a capable backup.

Now we have Crawford who is playing great and is playing big minutes and Woody is STILL running JJ into the ground. So what is Woody's excuse now?

The Woody apologists will always have an excuse for why Woody runs JJ into the ground and doesn't play Teague.

I don't want to see JJ play as many minutes as he did last year but he "only" played 37 minutes last night. If Woody would keep his minutes at 37 mpg for the balance of the season, I would be thrilled. That said, JJ's minutes should have VERY little to do with how many minutes Teague gets as all of Teague's time should come at PG. For Teague to get minutes, Bibby and Crawford have to play fewer minutes at PG.

Honestly, the way Crawford is playing right now, what do you do to get Teague significant minutes? Crawford needs at least SOME minutes at PG. A Crawford/JJ/Marv perimeter creates significant matchup problems for most teams as not many PGs can guard Crawford.

If Crawford only plays 8 mpg at PG and Bibby only plays 30 mpg at PG, that only leaves 10 mpg for Teague. The reality is that if everyone is healthy, it is hard to play 10 guys consistent minutes every night. I think you will see the starters plus Crawford, Zaza and Mo get consistent double figure minutes. Teague and Joe Smith will have some 20 minute nights and some 5 minute nights.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Well . . we've already have seen the backlash when Woody tried to give JJ rest when he was on fire, and played the bench ( including Teague ). The fan base had a fit. Even though the move didn't affect the game much, people went crazy.

vs Indy, JJ plays 39 minutes . . the fan base has a fit

vs the Blazers, he plays JJ 46 minuttes, and the fan base has a fit.

Then he plays 37 minnutes last night, and the fan base still questions that, because our beloved rookie only got 5 minutes of PT, instead of a DNP

No other coach in this league would DARE reduce the minutes of their star player, or their star 6th man, just to make time for the 10th man on the roster. That's what Teague is folks . . the 10th man.

If anything, most coaches would be playing EVANS more with Crawford, in order to get JJ the extra "rest". At least with that move, you put a guy out there who can adequately defend the 2, while leaving Crawford at the point. So fault Woody for not playing Evans more to give JJ more "rest".

If you pair Teague with Crawford, Teague is going to have to start making some defensive plays, to justify the type of playing time people want to see. Especially if Crawford is dominating the ball and has complete control of the team. I agree that if anything, Teague needs to be playing alongside JJ more, and not Crawford. This allows Teague to play the point and control the action.

But somebody's PT is going to get cut somewhere. Even if you cut JJ's PT by 4 minutes last night, and give it to Teague, he's still only playing 9 minutes.

If he cuts Crawford's time, when Crawford is having another great game, he'd get criticized for that. Ish, I haven't been Jamal's biggest fan over the years, and even I would criticize Woody for reducing his time just to play Teague last night.

If you cut Bibby's time, it means the Teague - Crawford backcourt plays together more . . . a backcourt that has yet to prove that it can slow down anybody, let alone stop.

If Teague comes into that game late in the 3rd, and the 5 point lead Sacramento had, balloons to a 9 point lead, guess who gets the blame?

Despite being 4 - 1, for Woody, it's damned if he does . . damned if he doesn't.

[exodus]

North correct me if i am wrong but you seem to be implying that the Hawks are playing defense when Teague isn't on the floor. Given that the Hawks opponents are averaging 102.4 ppg shooting 47%, 38% from 3 so far this season i would beg to differ.

Teague had as many assists in 5 minutes as Bibby had in 34. So far Teague's per 36 stats are 15/8 with a 5 to 1 assist to turnover ratio.

If Woodson isn't going to give JJ a breather against a bad team when Crawford is lighting it up and Teague is playing well then when is he going to rest JJ?

Looks like another midseason JJ shooting slump is on it's way.

[Traceman]

The Kings may be a bad team but it was a close game last night. Besides, JJ only played 37 minutes. Even if JJ had played 32 minutes and they all went to Teague, that is only 10 minutes for Teague.

I think Teague can play with Crawford and JJ SOME but when Crawford was playing the way he was last night, you wanted the ball in his or JJ's hands on virtually every possession. That being the case, Bibby spotting up on the 3pt line presented a bigger threat to the D than anything Teague would have done without the ball.

I think Teague is going to be a terrific PG for us and he brings a whole different dynamic to the team than Bibby. That is a GREAT thing. I still think there is a chance he could cut significantly into Bibby's minutes as the season goes along. But with the way our offense looks at 4-1, I have NO problem with what Woody has done so far.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

North correct me if i am wrong but you seem to be implying that the Hawks are playing defense when Teague isn't on the floor. Given that the Hawks opponents are averaging 102.4 ppg shooting 47%, 38% from 3 so far this season i would beg to differ.

Teague had as many assists in 5 minutes as Bibby had in 34. So far Teague's per 36 stats are 15/8 with a 5 to 1 assist to turnover ratio.

If Woodson isn't going to give JJ a breather against a bad team when Crawford is lighting it up and Teague is playing well then when is he going to rest JJ?

Looks like another midseason JJ shooting slump is on it's way.

EX, the problem isn't necessarily with Teague individually. The problem is the backcourt collectively.

Offensively, they're fine, but not as good as the Bibby - Crawford backcourt. Defensively, the Teague - Crawford backcourt ( right now ) is no better than the Bibby - Crawford backcourt. And you definitely need to play the Crawford - JJ backcourt at times, because that's the most potent group to play together.

So if Crawford is playing like an All-Star in a game, do you really want to cut into his minutes to play Teague? And in the 2nd half of tight games, wouldn't you rather have Bibby on the floor, than Teague?

And as far as JJ goes, he SHOULD be playing 36 - 40 minutes a night in a tight game. That shouldn't even be a debate.

The sure fire way to get Teague some minutes, is to build a lead in a game, and see if he and Crawford can sustain it with the 2nd unit. Then, if we're up 7 or more points going into the 4th, he should get another chance to play.

But in that scenario, you better believe that our opponent isn't going to sit their starting PG too many minutes for a break ( especially if the starting PG is a significantly better player than the backup ).

I don't know why everybody is so down on Bibby these days. All the dude does is keep the offense in check and make shots. Teague is the 10th man. He's not even the backup PG . . .Crawford is.

Sacramento was a "bad team", but that "bad team" played us like the Blazers last night.

[exodus]

EX, the problem isn't necessarily with Teague individually. The problem is the backcourt collectively.

Offensively, they're fine, but not as good as the Bibby - Crawford backcourt. Defensively, the Teague - Crawford backcourt ( right now ) is no better than the Bibby - Crawford backcourt. And you definitely need to play the Crawford - JJ backcourt at times, because that's the most potent group to play together.

So if Crawford is playing like an All-Star in a game, do you really want to cut into his minutes to play Teague? And in the 2nd half of tight games, wouldn't you rather have Bibby on the floor, than Teague?

And as far as JJ goes, he SHOULD be playing 36 - 40 minutes a night in a tight game. That shouldn't even be a debate.

The sure fire way to get Teague some minutes, is to build a lead in a game, and see if he and Crawford can sustain it with the 2nd unit. Then, if we're up 7 or more points going into the 4th, he should get another chance to play.

But in that scenario, you better believe that our opponent isn't going to sit their starting PG too many minutes for a break ( especially if the starting PG is a significantly better player than the backup ).

I don't know why everybody is so down on Bibby these days. All the dude does is keep the offense in check and make shots. Teague is the 10th man. He's not even the backup PG . . .Crawford is.

Sacramento was a "bad team", but that "bad team" played us like the Blazers last night.

Right now it is the start of games that is hurting the Hawks, not the bench. The Hawks scoring has been lame to start the game but then picks up when Crawford comes in.

You are complaining about Teague's defense but what you are really doing is anticipating a problem that could come up rather than looking at what is actually happening. Bibby isn't doing anything. Teague is playing well. There is no reason not to be playing him more of Bibby's minutes. None. If Bibby starts playing well or Teague starts actually struggling then you can justify keeping Teague on the bench. That simply isn't happening.

You want to know why people are down on Bibby? Josh Smith is leading the team in assists and Bibby's scoring has been anemic.

[Traceman]

EX, the problem isn't necessarily with Teague individually. The problem is the backcourt collectively.

Offensively, they're fine, but not as good as the Bibby - Crawford backcourt. Defensively, the Teague - Crawford backcourt ( right now ) is no better than the Bibby - Crawford backcourt. And you definitely need to play the Crawford - JJ backcourt at times, because that's the most potent group to play together.

So if Crawford is playing like an All-Star in a game, do you really want to cut into his minutes to play Teague? And in the 2nd half of tight games, wouldn't you rather have Bibby on the floor, than Teague?

And as far as JJ goes, he SHOULD be playing 36 - 40 minutes a night in a tight game. That shouldn't even be a debate.

The sure fire way to get Teague some minutes, is to build a lead in a game, and see if he and Crawford can sustain it with the 2nd unit. Then, if we're up 7 or more points going into the 4th, he should get another chance to play.

But in that scenario, you better believe that our opponent isn't going to sit their starting PG too many minutes for a break ( especially if the starting PG is a significantly better player than the backup ).

I don't know why everybody is so down on Bibby these days. All the dude does is keep the offense in check and make shots. Teague is the 10th man. He's not even the backup PG . . .Crawford is.

Sacramento was a "bad team", but that "bad team" played us like the Blazers last night.

I'm certainly not down on Bibby. He is playing very well as far as I'm concerned. His scoring is down from last year but you can't add a guy like Crawford to the mix without it affecting the balance of shot attempts. Bibby is 5th on the team in shot attempts and I appreciate the fact that he has been willing to sacrifice his stats for the good of the team.

Edited November 5, 2009 by Traceman

[Traceman]

Right now it is the start of games that is hurting the Hawks, not the bench. The Hawks scoring has been lame to start the game but then picks up when Crawford comes in.

You are complaining about Teague's defense but what you are really doing is anticipating a problem that could come up rather than looking at what is actually happening. Bibby isn't doing anything. Teague is playing well. There is no reason not to be playing him more of Bibby's minutes. None. If Bibby starts playing well or Teague starts actually struggling then you can justify keeping Teague on the bench. That simply isn't happening.

You want to know why people are down on Bibby? Josh Smith is leading the team in assists and Bibby's scoring has been anemic.

There are only so many shots available. Bibby's scoring is down because Crawford is taking shots that he (Bibby) would have taken last year and his assists are down because the majority of the plays (rightfully so) are being initiated by JJ and Crawford. Bibby is doing just fine given what he is being asked to do.

[exodus]

There are only so many shots available. Bibby's scoring is down because Crawford is taking shots that he (Bibby) would have taken last year and his assists are down because the majority of the plays (rightfully so) are being initiated by JJ and Crawford. Bibby is doing just fine given what he is being asked to do.

The reason the offense is initiated through JJ/Craw is that they can create. Bibby can't. When Bibby isn't scoring his value diminishes greatly because he can't do much else. He can't create or defend.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

The only thing Teague has done, was play well in a blowout in LA. You cite his PER 36 numbers like it makes a case for him playing more over a guy who the Hawks are something like 14 games over .500, with him in the lineup.

What if I told you about a guy who is a bench player, but has a PER 36 of 15.8 pts and 12 rebs . . with a TS% of over 70% . . and a PER of 22.5?

Would he be making a case to ger more playing time, or is he simply getting those numbers because of a blowout situation?

[exodus]

The only thing Teague has done, was play well in a blowout in LA. You cite his PER 36 numbers like it makes a case for him playing more over a guy who the Hawks are something like 14 games over .500, with him in the lineup.

What if I told you about a guy who is a bench player, but has a PER 36 of 15.8 pts and 12 rebs . . with a TS% of over 70% . . and a PER of 22.5?

Would he be making a case to ger more playing time, or is he simply getting those numbers because of a blowout situation?

Teague had as many assists in 5 minutes last night as Bibby had the whole game. He is the only guy on the roster than has the quickness to actually pressure a pg bringing the ball upcourt. Not to mention the damage he can do pushing the ball up the floor.

I am not using his numbers as an indicator that he should be getting 20 minutes a game. I am saying that he isn't playing poorly enough to be benched completely while Bibby, Crawford and JJ play 34+ . If there was some great falloff when Teague came in (like with Acie last year) then i could understand it.

Plus it isn't just about his numbers. If you aren't going to play Teague against a bad team on the 2nd night of a back to back after he just played well against the champs then when are you going to play him? It isn't like the starters came out blazing last night. They couldnt make a shot to start the game and were turning it over left and right. It would have been tough for Teague to play worse than the starters did early in last nights game.

[buckeye242424]

The reason the offense is initiated through JJ/Craw is that they can create. Bibby can't. When Bibby isn't scoring his value diminishes greatly because he can't do much else. He can't create or defend.

But he is scoring and hitting the open looks. He's a shooter now, and good outlet for JJ's double, or Craw. I think he hits a significant cold streak, we'll see more of Teague. Right now, roll with the stars and the vets....

[exodus]

But he is scoring and hitting the open looks. He's a shooter now, and good outlet for JJ's double, or Craw. I think he hits a significant cold streak, we'll see more of Teague. Right now, roll with the stars and the vets....

10 ppg shooting 41.7% does not impress me. I don't see how that is good enough to keep Teague pinned to the bench.

[MaceCase]

Just some thoughts on the matter. Bibby sees minutes thanks to moments like the closing minutes of the Sac game. I think we got an offensive rebound, the ball goes out to Marvin at the corner three, he pumps, the d rotates out to him, Marvin swings it out to a wide open Bibby. Bibby fakes the three rather than shoot it, draws his man out and then drives to the paint sucking in the D to protect the paint. Bibby then kicks the ball out to JJ on the corner three, Martin recovers but JJ now swings it to the completely wide open Jamal. In the end the stat says made 3 pointer Jamal Crawford, assisted by Joe Johnson but it was the vet savy of Bibby that forced the issue, putting the onus on the defense to react more than just closing out on a shooter. Bibby doesn't just play to his game, he understands the flow of the game and adjusts accordingly more than any other of our players. May not look pretty but that's the type of poise and intangibles you want in the number of tight games we've played so far.

[Atlantaholic]

I think Teague's PER is the highest in our team (at least it was before his 5 minute cameo last night).

Teagues innabilities to get minutes has nothing to do with Teague's abilities and everything to do with Woodson's incapacity to handle a rotation. If you think every other NBA head coach only plays his bench in blow outs you are just wrong. Woodson needs to trust his bench, especially teague, because they are playing terrific... The only reason he does not play them is because he is scared. If we had just gotten a competent head coach a few years back and locked him up long term we would not be having these problems.

The fact Woodson hasn't gotten a long term deal despite back to back playoff appearances should tell you everything you need to know about how highly he is regarded by our Front Office. They are just itching for an excuse to kick him to the curb and I can't say I blame them.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Teague had as many assists in 5 minutes last night as Bibby had the whole game. He is the only guy on the roster than has the quickness to actually pressure a pg bringing the ball upcourt. Not to mention the damage he can do pushing the ball up the floor.

I am not using his numbers as an indicator that he should be getting 20 minutes a game. I am saying that he isn't playing poorly enough to be benched completely while Bibby, Crawford and JJ play 34+ . If there was some great falloff when Teague came in (like with Acie last year) then i could understand it.

Plus it isn't just about his numbers. If you aren't going to play Teague against a bad team on the 2nd night of a back to back after he just played well against the champs then when are you going to play him? It isn't like the starters came out blazing last night. They couldnt make a shot to start the game and were turning it over left and right. It would have been tough for Teague to play worse than the starters did early in last nights game.

OK . . well break the minutes down by position. Just do it for the PG, SG, and SF spots ( seeing that you're going to have to play JJ at the 3 to make this work )

Teague hasn't done anything noteworthy to take minutes from Bibby. The one thing that could get him more PT, is to play good defense in thr 5 - 7 minutes he may get in the first half. If he does that, he may get more time in the 2nd half.

So go ahead and break down the minutes at those 3 positions, and who will you give them to.