If Woody won't let Teague play this year

[Atlantaholic]

Teague has struggled this year playing against backups and you want to see his role expanded. Evans has been TERRIBLE this season against backups and you want to see his role expanded. And the first time that Woodson sits Crawford, Bibby, and Joe too much then everyone here woudl crucify Woodson for it. If you are willing to lose games to get these guys more PT then thats great but I think you are nuts.

If the team wasn't too cheap to field a summer league team maybe Teague would be closer to being able to help at this point. If the team didn't waste money on Collins then maybe Woodson would have better options on the bench.

Did you even read what was posted? Teague has played GREAT when he is in with starters. Problem is Woody is to idiotic to actually MIX his bench with his starters, you know like EVERY SINGLE nba coach does. Guess what? everybody's bench is pretty bad. That is why they sit on the freaking bench at tipoff. Eddie House would have no prayer to start on any team in the NBA, but he has been an integral part of a championship team rotations. Shelden is an enormous joke, but lo and behold, he can contribute to a first place team. There is no team that has a second unit that is starter caliber, non. Coaching is about knowing how to maximize the talent you have, and on our team, Joe Smith, Evans, and Pachulia are all having career worse years. Why can Joe Smith contribute to a superior Cleveland team and not to us? Why is Evans good enough to get more minutes in Orlando and LA than on our team? Why does a Rookie that had impressed the heck out of EVERYONE (writers, teamates, coaches) in training camp and preseason get the majority of his 5 minutes a game with a lineup of Joe Smith, Crawford, Evans, and Pachulia? If you think Woody's handling of the bench has been good you are drinking some serious kool-aid man. In fact just from comparing our bench players' PER to other team's bench players' PER ours are actually quite high. Everyone is around 11-12 PER (not including Crawford who is at around 19). Of the top four only Orlando has a bench with better PER than us. Cleveland's bench has played way worse than ours, Bostons has been about on par with us. Yet we are the ones with a six man rotation right now in November. I mean, jesus, you aren't supposed to shorten your rotation until at least the second half, everyone knows that. We will be worn down ONCE AGAIN by the time december comes. The same trend of the last three years.

[Atlantaholic]

Um.......NO!!!! Conley has been a vast disappointment to anyone who actually follows that team, he has been vastly outplayed by Tinsley since he's signed with that team. The Grizz are not an inept organization, they have actually made some pretty good moves to position themselves for the future, wasn't very long ago that we looked like the Grizz so we may want to chill on the insults. I wouldn't mind him on the team but what would u give up to get him? Thats y i say NO!!! The only person that we can really give up to get him is Marv, doesn't really help us right now because we would have a hole at the 3, don't want to hear about moving JJ to the 3 and putting craw at the 2, if we did that then whats the point of getting conley bc he's not the type of player that can really play off the ball.......not a great shooter........he's at his best when he's TRYING to run an offense, he wouldn't have a chance in hell at doing that with JJ and Craw both on the floor at the same time so NO!!!!

I'd rather give Teague a chance than go after Conley. He has stunk massively. And yeah, I don't know where Conley would fit into our offense since he cannot go one on one AT ALL and can't shoot. At least Teague can get to the lane.

[spotatl]

I'd love for you to make a point worth responding to. I'd prefer to play Teague against backups- when he can do decently against backups then I'll give him more meaningful minutes.

[jy23]

I'd love for you to make a point worth responding to. I'd prefer to play Teague against backups- when he can do decently against backups then I'll give him more meaningful minutes.

Dude really? Woody puts the entire second unit in most of the time and you're going to judge Teague's performance off that? Our coach is an idiot when it comes to rotations, thats pretty obvious. What has the guy done thats so bad that he can't get a consistent 5-8 mins a night?

[Gray Mule]

Agent 0 should not start.

That being said, he should get his playing time with the starting unit. Why?

Because he can be much better with the starters. Build his confidence and

build Woody's confidence in him.

Suppose you let Agent 0 play the second half of the first and third quarters.

Most of the time, starters or the #6 & #7 guys are on the floor. This would

give Agent 0 one quarter per game. That leaves 3 quarters for Bibby and

Crawford & JJ to run the point.

Woody: "You must earn playing time."

How can any player earn playing time, sitting on the bench or being pulled

as soon as he makes one error, or at most, two?

Have a plan. Work your plan.

What is Woody's plan? Keep a tight rotation. Run the top seven into the

ground while ignoring the others. Win now! At all costs! Never remove JJ.

:temperature:

[Atlantaholic]

I'd love for you to make a point worth responding to. I'd prefer to play Teague against backups- when he can do decently against backups then I'll give him more meaningful minutes.

Our rotation is the shortest rotation outside of the Warriors. Outside of our top six NOT A SINGLE player is getting more than 13 minutes a game. You are saying it is because our bench is made up of the worlds worst players but in fact their PER is un par with the bench of the Lakers, the Celtics, and is clearly better than the Cavs. Keep in mind that I am comparing just these years' per, if I were to compare our bench's career PER against other teams' Bench players PER our bench is actually one of the better ones in the league hands down.

As for Teague... he is not playing against backups. Teague is not playing against starters. Teague is not playing at all. So I have no idea what your point is. Obviously I would love for him to get 10-15 minutes a game against backups.

[TheTruth]

I am SHOCKED to find out that Teague is -14 on the year in 41.7 minutes when playing in a lineup with all bench players. Shocked.

Did you know, however, that in the 20.2 minutes he has played with at least 2 starters on the floor that the Hawks are +18? How can this be? Teague is doing fantasticly better when playing with a few starters? Why in the world would that be the case?

I question Flip as being a superior comparison. When Flip Murray was playing without Bibby, JJ, Smith and Horford did you know he was also terrible from a +/- perspective?

* Law-Murray-Evans-Williams-Jones 33 minutes, -25 = WORSE THAN TEAGUE (with a starter)

* Law-Murray-Evans-Williams-Pachulia 26 minutes, -18 WORSE THAN TEAGUE (with a starter)

* Murray-Evans-Williams-Smith-Pachulia 36 minutes, -17 = WORSE THAN TEAGUE (with two starters)

Hmmm....playing with the worst players on the team tends to bring down your +/-. That is remarkable. Who would ever have anticipated this?

Did you know Bibby has not played in one lineup this season (that I can find and at least among his top 10 by minutes) without at least 3 starters on the floor? Surely that doesn't make a difference in +/- numbers, right?

In the one lineup I could find where Joe Johnson played with all reserves he had a negative +/-. Clearly, we should bench JJ since he is hurting us on the floor when playing minutes with the dregs of our team -- just like Teague.

In fact, JJ had a worse +/- ratio on a per minute basis than Teague in the lineups where they each played with all reserves. Can JJ! His number are pulled down by playing with all subs too! He must be costing us games!

I've already said it.

You make too much sense sir, too much sense...

[Atlantaholic]

Agent 0 should not start.

That being said, he should get his playing time with the starting unit. Why?

Because he can be much better with the starters. Build his confidence and

build Woody's confidence in him.

Suppose you let Agent 0 play the second half of the first and third quarters.

Most of the time, starters or the #6 & #7 guys are on the floor. This would

give Agent 0 one quarter per game. That leaves 3 quarters for Bibby and

Crawford & JJ to run the point.

Woody: "You must earn playing time."

How can any player earn playing time, sitting on the bench or being pulled

as soon as he makes one error, or at most, two?

Have a plan. Work your plan.

What is Woody's plan? Keep a tight rotation. Run the top seven into the

ground while ignoring the others. Win now! At all costs! Never remove JJ.

:temperature:

I wish our rotation was 7 deep. The last five games we only have SIX players averaging over 12.2 minutes a game. On the season Zaza and Mo Evans are averaging CAREER WORST mpg. I guess when the front office, and the coach, and the writers and the organization, sets a goal this year (deepen the rotation) and we do a worse job of it than ever, it is cool with some fans. But not to me.

[jerrywest]

I am SHOCKED to find out that Teague is -14 on the year in 41.7 minutes when playing in a lineup with all bench players. Shocked.

Did you know, however, that in the 20.2 minutes he has played with at least 2 starters on the floor that the Hawks are +18? How can this be? Teague is doing fantasticly better when playing with a few starters? Why in the world would that be the case?

I question Flip as being a superior comparison. When Flip Murray was playing without Bibby, JJ, Smith and Horford did you know he was also terrible from a +/- perspective?

* Law-Murray-Evans-Williams-Jones 33 minutes, -25 = WORSE THAN TEAGUE (with a starter)

* Law-Murray-Evans-Williams-Pachulia 26 minutes, -18 WORSE THAN TEAGUE (with a starter)

* Murray-Evans-Williams-Smith-Pachulia 36 minutes, -17 = WORSE THAN TEAGUE (with two starters)

Hmmm....playing with the worst players on the team tends to bring down your +/-. That is remarkable. Who would ever have anticipated this?

Did you know Bibby has not played in one lineup this season (that I can find and at least among his top 10 by minutes) without at least 3 starters on the floor? Surely that doesn't make a difference in +/- numbers, right?

In the one lineup I could find where Joe Johnson played with all reserves he had a negative +/-. Clearly, we should bench JJ since he is hurting us on the floor when playing minutes with the dregs of our team -- just like Teague.

In fact, JJ had a worse +/- ratio on a per minute basis than Teague in the lineups where they each played with all reserves. Can JJ! His number are pulled down by playing with all subs too! He must be costing us games

This post should win ESPN's NBA top 10 slam dunk!!!

Hands down post of the year.

I'd like to copy and paste this all over the blogosphere - with your permission!!!

[AHF]

I'd love for you to make a point worth responding to. I'd prefer to play Teague against backups- when he can do decently against backups then I'll give him more meaningful minutes.

You said Teague was hurting the team and that sitting him on the bench was justified because the team +/- showed he hurt the team. I pointed out that Teague has played almost exclusively with all reserve lineups and that when he has gotten to play with even 2 starters in the game that he has posted great +/- numbers.

You said that Flip Murray was an example of a better player who deserved additional minutes. I showed you that Flip was actually worse last season in his minutes with lineups like the one Teague has played with.

You didn't mention the fact that Teague's +/- just might be influenced by who else was on the floor. I showed that even JJ can put up bad +/- figures when saddled with the dregs of the team.

I don't mind you disagreeing with the numbers or arguing the assumptions, but I am at a bit of a loss when you say this isn't worth a comment from you given that it directly calls into question the basis for your previous argument that Woody can't afford to play Teague based on his +/- numbers.

[AHF]

This post should win ESPN's NBA top 10 slam dunk!!!

Hands down post of the year.

I'd like to copy and paste this all over the blogosphere - with your permission!!!

Feel free but recognize that this was pulled from info on 82games and that the JJ info is based on a small number of minutes so it is possible I am missing something (82 games lists the 10 5-man lineups for each player with the most minutes). That said, I do feel strongly that there is a correlation between playing with several starters and a better +/- than when playing with all bench players.

[jerrywest]

I wonder how Bibby will play if he is in there with 4 reserves? Who will set him up and who will cover for his defense?

[Atlantaholic]

Non of our bench players have any defined role on this team. I mean outside of JJ, Craw, Bibby, Josh, and Horf the rest of our players look totally lost out there. Especially when the reserves play together, it's like watching five guys play ball for the first time ever together (which isn't far from the truth actually). Woody has no idea how to fit players into what we are doing. You look at Utah, Phoenix, Boston, or San Antonio, and scrub after scrub can go in at any time and give you five solid minutes here and there. The reason is because the other teams' players understand their role, and how to get points, rebounds, or how to make the plays they are capable of making within the structure of the offense and defense. Don't tell me freaking Lou Almundsun is better than Joe Smith, Pachulia, or Mo, but the dude is able to come in for Phoenix and be productive. Joe Smith is a very productive bench player if you know how to use him, he is able to consistantly make a mid range jumpshot and rebound. He did in Cleveland last year and has done it throughout his career. With us the dude looks lost out there on the court... and it is understandable since he also exclusively plays with the second unit lineup. He has no niche here, in fact non of our players really have a niche outside of JJ and Crawford. The rest of our team kind of plays off of fast breaks and off of the double teams from both of those guys. When neither of them are on the court our half court offense literally does not exist. It is fundamentally bad coaching, and even Sund explained that we needed to improve on that this year.

So far we have only gotten worse.

[Buzzard]

I wish our rotation was 7 deep. The last five games we only have SIX players averaging over 12.2 minutes a game. On the season Zaza and Mo Evans are averaging CAREER WORST mpg. I guess when the front office, and the coach, and the writers and the organization, sets a goal this year (deepen the rotation) and we do a worse job of it than ever, it is cool with some fans. But not to me.

Woody is at a loss with rotations. Never been good at them and they have always been only six deep; dating back to Harrington, Smoove, and Chilz. We do have as good a bench as any team in the league. Yet the Celtics, Lakers, and Cavs rotate more minutes to the bench than we do. I have seen Sheed get anywhere from 10 to 30 minutes depending on matchups, foul trouble, or just bad nights. Those nights Doc inserts Shelden or Big Baby for extended minutes.

If Shelden Wiliams of all people can get extended minutes on the Celtics, why the hell can't Teague?

The only starter that Woody seems to be subbing a lot of minutes from is Marvin. No blame there; but Marvin is not our only player that has had off nights on offense, defense, or both. I think it overwhelms him; so he sticks with six players. Stat lovers will enjoy this I think. Here is a list of NBA teams who have not one but two rookies getting more minutes than Jeff Teague.

Kings

Timberwolves

Bucks

Pistons

Hornets

Jazz

OKC

Rockets

Memphis

Bobcats

Now here is a list of last seasons playoff teams with at least one rookie getting more minutes than Teague:

Denver

Utah

San Antonio

Portand

Houston

Mavericks

Hornets

Pistons

Philly

Chicago

Of this list, Denver, Utah, San Antonio, Portland, and the Mavericks really standout. The fact that the Pistons, Jazz, Hornets, and Rockets, all playoff teams from last season, also have two rookies getting more minutes than our one stands out as well. Teague was the 19th player taken yet is ranked 36th among rookies in MPG.

To me this implies either Sund made a mistake in drafting Teague or Woody is by not playing him.

Link to site for MPG for rookies:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/statistics?stat=nbaminutes&league=nba&split=0&sort=mins&avg=pg&qual=true&season=2010&seasontype=2&pos=r

Edited December 2, 2009 by Buzzard

[Atlantaholic]

Woody is at a loss with rotations. Never been good at them and they have always been only six deep; dating back to Harrington, Smoove, and Chilz. We do have as good a bench as any team in the league. Yet the Celtics, Lakers, and Cavs rotate more minutes to the bench than we do. I have seen Sheed get anywhere from 10 to 30 minutes depending on matchups, foul trouble, or just bad nights. Those nights Doc inserts Shelden or Big Baby for extended minutes.

If Shelden Wiliams of all people can get extended minutes on the Celtics, why the hell can't Teague?

The only starter that Woody seems to be subbing a lot of minutes from is Marvin. No blame there; but Marvin is not our only player that has had off nights on offense, defense, or both. I think it overwhelms him; so he sticks with six players. Stat lovers will enjoy this I think. Here is a list of NBA teams who have not one but two rookies getting more minutes than Jeff Teague.

Kings

Timberwolves

Bucks

Pistons

Hornets

Jazz

OKC

Rockets

Memphis

Bobcats

Now here is a list of last seasons playoff teams with at least one rookie getting more minutes than Teague:

Denver

Utah

San Antonio

Portand

Houston

Mavericks

Hornets

Pistons

Philly

Chicago

Of this list, Denver, Utah, San Antonio, Portland, and the Mavericks really standout. The fact that the Pistons, Jazz, Hornets, and Rockets, all playoff teams from last season, also have two rookies getting more minutes than our one stands out as well. Teague was the 19th player taken yet is ranked 36th among rookies in MPG.

To me this implies either Sund made a mistake in drafting Teague or Woody is by not playing him.

Link to site for MPG for rookies:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/statistics?stat=nbaminutes&league=nba&split=0&sort=mins&avg=pg&qual=true&season=2010&seasontype=2&pos=r

Of those, how many outplayed Teague in preseason when he was getting minutes? Not many

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Look guys, I think Teague has all star potential if he is allowed to learn through his mistakes. We are talking Woody here. He needs his TL/Ivey.

I'm still reading through this thread, so if someone has already pointed out what I'm about to say, then I'm sorry.

Teague has All-Star potential huh?

You mean like Marvin, Shelden, and Acie had all-star potential?

Sometimes, we just need to be honest about things. The young guys that have all-star potential, show it from the jump. Future All-Stars don't shoot 0 - 15 FG in a game, even if it's a practice game.

If Teague had that much potential, he would've been a lottery pick, not the 7th PG taken in the draft.

More and more, I wonder how this team would look, if we drafted Dejuan Blair, a guy who looks like he may be a rebounding machine, instead of Teague.

The fact is that the minute Sund traded for a combo guard like Crawford, and retained Bibby, Teague's chances to play decent minutes was significantly hurt.

At least if we'd drafted Blair, there may or may not have been a need to bring in Joe Smith. With rebounding still being one of our more inconsistent points, Woody would've loved Blair.

There was definitely a need to draft Teague, in case Bibby bounced. But there isn't a need to give him steady minutes per game either. Not when Bibby is shooting well and when Crawford can adequately play the point, with JJ at the 2.

[Buzzard]

Of those, how many outplayed Teague in preseason when he was getting minutes? Not many

What gets me more than anything is things like this:

The Mavericks Beaubois can get over 13 minutes a game and has been given 11 token starts ahead of Jason Terry 34 mpg and Jose Barea 24 mpg. Add in Jason Kidd and its pretty clear the Mavericks rookie is their 4th guard per minutes played; yet not only does he get more minutes than Teague but also has been given 11 token starts!

I don't care if Teague gets these starts but damn give him some minutes please!

Edited December 2, 2009 by Buzzard

[TheNorthCydeRises]

I'd rather give Teague a chance than go after Conley. He has stunk massively. And yeah, I don't know where Conley would fit into our offense since he cannot go one on one AT ALL and can't shoot. At least Teague can get to the lane.

Conley has definitely been disappointing this year. Memphis picked up Jamal Tinsley after the Iverson experiment blew up in their faces. Iverson was stupid, because with the way Conley is playing, there would've been a huge outcry for Iverson to play more . . even start.

Now he'll basically play the same role, with a contract that can be terminated at any given time, for the vet minimum,on arguably a worse team. It'll be interesting what his effect on Andre Iguodala will be.

If he'd stayed in Memphis, he would've easily got enough playing time and shots to average 12 - 15 ppg, and would've been on the court at the end of every game.

[Atlantaholic]

Teague has not been too impressive so far, but the kid has nary gotten a chance. Has he even played over 20 minutes a game this year?

[Buzzard]

I'm still reading through this thread, so if someone has already pointed out what I'm about to say, then I'm sorry.

Teague has All-Star potential huh?

You mean like Marvin, Shelden, and Acie had all-star potential?

Sometimes, we just need to be honest about things. The young guys that have all-star potential, show it from the jump. Future All-Stars don't shoot 0 - 15 FG in a game, even if it's a practice game.

If Teague had that much potential, he would've been a lottery pick, not the 7th PG taken in the draft.

More and more, I wonder how this team would look, if we drafted Dejuan Blair, a guy who looks like he may be a rebounding machine, instead of Teague.

The fact is that the minute Sund traded for a combo guard like Crawford, and retained Bibby, Teague's chances to play decent minutes was significantly hurt.

At least if we'd drafted Blair, there may or may not have been a need to bring in Joe Smith. With rebounding still being one of our more inconsistent points, Woody would've loved Blair.

There was definitely a need to draft Teague, in case Bibby bounced. But there isn't a need to give him steady minutes per game either. Not when Bibby is shooting well and when Crawford can adequately play the point, with JJ at the 2.

I do not have a problem with Blair over Teague. Nor do I think the Spurs would have cried foul if Teague would have dropped in their laps. Guess you think 10 to 13 minutes a game is significant. I don't; and if any those rookies, whom are getting more minutes than Teague, have all that potential they would have also been drafted in the lottery. So you argument that well Teague was not a lottery pick therefore he is not good enough is kind of trivial.

But coming from someone who posted Woody is coach of the year halfway through November, I get the fact that you will defend Woodys' strategies and rotations at least until the all-star break.

Edited December 3, 2009 by Buzzard