Question for the board about Joe Johnson

[Scott]

I have a question about Joe Johnson. I no that Joe is a unrestricted freeagent and can sign with any team with the money. The Hawks have a advantage as far as contract lenght and yearly increases during the contract correct. If Joe will allow Atlanta to sign him and trade him to a team under the salary cap will Atlanta have the money available to use in a trade exemption for one year. I think Seattle did this when the did a sign and trade Rashard Lewis a few years back. I think a 15 million dollar trade exemption be very helpful im building our team for the future. Please let me no if this is true.

[mrhonline]

It is true, but the board seems deeply divided whether a S&T is the best option (as opposed to paying him his open market value).

[Buzzard]

It is true, but the board seems deeply divided whether a S&T is the best option (as opposed to paying him his open market value).

I am willing to pay JJ his value; but if ownership/management thinks that is the only big move they need to make playerwise to get out of the 2nd round and put fans into the seats...they are sadly mistaken.

Edited May 15, 2010 by Buzzard

[tbhawksfan]

If we can get a nice S&T for JJ like Devin Harris and Lee. Trade Smoove for a C like Biendrins and Randolph.

Harris / Teague / Bibby

Crawf / Lee

Chil / MW

Horford / Randolph

Bindrins / Zaza

These are trades that have been debted on trade boards and are somewhat in the realm of the possible. Add a nice coach and the team might be improved.

[tbhawksfan]

Should have added, NJ trade would require a third team, they don't want JJ.

[Gray Mule]

:write a letter:

In order to come out with a reasonable solution, the Hawks must do one of two things.

1- Sign JJ to a reasonable, long term contract and keep him as a Hawk.

2-Sign him to a contract, long term and not necessarily reasonable, and trade him - - IE, a sign and trade.

Hawks cannot just let him walk away. With the strange way the NBA is structured, apparently, if JJ walks,

Hawks would lose his salary but would still be @ the luxury tax line and unable to sign anyone to replace

him. Sure, we could get one of those minimum wage, veteran contracts. A Joe Smith type.

I feel that much of what JJ does will depend on who the head coach is. Therefore, I think the Hawks should

not waste any time in their search for a new coach - - Get 'er done soon!!

:conversation:

[Tumbleweed]

It is true, but the board seems deeply divided whether a S&T is the best option (as opposed to paying him his open market value).

What your saying is probably true, but I just don't understand why for the most part knowledgeable basketball fans are divided on this.

The experiment is over. JJ is not a Wade/Kobe/James/Howard etc...etc.... And he cannot be on this team unless he is because he ties

up too much money. The owners I trust know this group has gone as far as it can go.

Time to re-group for 1-2yrs at the most, casting off liabilities and building around your assets. The team needs to build around their

two big forwards (Smith/Horford), and thats it.

I would say wait and see who the new coach is, but I think if he radically changes things, he will have problems with JJ (if he were to stay).

This team's offensive sets were bulit around JJ's strengths, the last couple of years, and not around the team's strengths as a whole.

[mrhonline]

I think we're actually outnumbered a bit, Tumbleweed.

I'd add to that my constant rebuttal to paying JJ $90M - if you, like almost all Hawks' fans, want to see him take a reduced offensive role, isn't he EVEN less valuable? In other words, doesn't he become ever MORE overpaid?

[Buzzard]

What your saying is probably true, but I just don't understand why for the most part knowledgeable basketball fans are divided on this.

The experiment is over. JJ is not a Wade/Kobe/James/Howard etc...etc.... And he cannot be on this team unless he is because he ties

up too much money. The owners I trust know this group has gone as far as it can go.

Time to re-group for 1-2yrs at the most, casting off liabilities and building around your assets. The team needs to build around their

two big forwards (Smith/Horford), and thats it.

I would say wait and see who the new coach is, but I think if he radically changes things, he will have problems with JJ (if he were to stay).

This team's offensive sets were bulit around JJ's strengths, the last couple of years, and not around the team's strengths as a whole.

I agree with the part that our teams strengths were not utilized under Woody; but JJ was well on his way under D'Antoni and his system. Which is why he got such a great offer from us. He has all the tools a scorer needs and I have no reason to think he cannot excel under any coaches scheme.

IMO JJ will make a great robin as the secondary ball handler for any team he plays on.

[Tumbleweed]

I agree with the part that our teams strengths were not utilized under Woody; but JJ was well on his way under D'Antoni and his system. Which is why he got such a great offer from us. He has all the tools a scorer needs and I have no reason to think he cannot excel under any coaches scheme.

IMO JJ will make a great robin as the secondary ball handler for any team he plays on.

That argument could work both ways, maybe he wanted out of D'Antoni's system, maybe that was his big reason for leaving the Suns?

Like we both have already agreed on, Woody built this team (on Offense) around JJ and to heck with the fact that this team was built

either by design or othwise, to run. What we have seen the last couple of years is how JJ wants to play, slow half-court isoJoe ball.

He ruled Woody, which made him even less a coach.

[Dsinner]

That argument could work both ways, maybe he wanted out of D'Antoni's system, maybe that was his big reason for leaving the Suns?

Like we both have already agreed on, Woody built this team (on Offense) around JJ and to heck with the fact that this team was built

either by design or othwise, to run. What we have seen the last couple of years is how JJ wants to play, slow half-court isoJoe ball.

He ruled Woody, which made him even less a coach.

Despite his brain fart I like Joe. I think he is a very good player. The problem is he wants max money and he has proven he is not a max player. I don't care if we take a step back for a year or two it is absolutely insane to overpay a player with a long term deal simply because there isn't anyone better out there right now. If Joe will accept a decent contract I'm all for him coming back. Hopefully he realized he turned down a contract in order to earn a bigger one and that he didn't earn it. We'll see if his head is bigger than his ego.

[Buzzard]

That argument could work both ways, maybe he wanted out of D'Antoni's system, maybe that was his big reason for leaving the Suns?

Like we both have already agreed on, Woody built this team (on Offense) around JJ and to heck with the fact that this team was built

either by design or othwise, to run. What we have seen the last couple of years is how JJ wants to play, slow half-court isoJoe ball.

He ruled Woody, which made him even less a coach.

I am not claiming to be a mind reader; and saying anything about what JJ thinks. My pont was not what JJ thinks; it was what he is capable of. He proved he could excel in a team oriented system. He was easily the 3rd or 4th wheel on that Suns team when he had his breakout season.

Until he shows me different; or says he will only accept being the primary scorer/ballhandler in a Woody like ISO system no matter where he goes (system being used instead of a word that would be astericked out). I have no reason to think any different on this topic. If you want to assume that is his mindset; so be it.

[Gray Mule]

:write a letter:

Putting all your eggs in one basket. As children, most of us learned the consequences of doing this.

I agree. JJ is a good player, bordering on greatness (But, he's not there and won't be) and he deserves

a good payday for what he is and what he may become.

Hawks can't give him ALL the money. Eleven players earning the NBA minimum and JJ getting all the

rest of it. Great for JJ and his bank account, --- bad for everyone else.

There will be some fantastic offers out there this off season - - Too many free agents to believe otherwise.

JJ will get an offer - - Probably more than he's worth.

We must sign and trade or sign and keep. Otherwise, it's a disaster for the Hawks.

:helpsmilie:

[dhawk]

:write a letter:

Putting all your eggs in one basket. As children, most of us learned the consequences of doing this.

I agree. JJ is a good player, bordering on greatness (But, he's not there and won't be) and he deserves

a good payday for what he is and what he may become.

Hawks can't give him ALL the money. Eleven players earning the NBA minimum and JJ getting all the

rest of it. Great for JJ and his bank account, --- bad for everyone else.

There will be some fantastic offers out there this off season - - Too many free agents to believe otherwise.

JJ will get an offer - - Probably more than he's worth.

We must sign and trade or sign and keep. Otherwise, it's a disaster for the Hawks.

:helpsmilie:

If JJ decides to take 5 years and less than a max offer from some team because he likes their roster, then the Hawks are SOL, because that team won't need to do a sign & trade and we gets nothing in return. That less than max deal still could be more than what the Hawks offered last year.

[Tumbleweed]

I am not claiming to be a mind reader; and saying anything about what JJ thinks. My pont was not what JJ thinks; it was what he is capable of. He proved he could excel in a team oriented system. He was easily the 3rd or 4th wheel on that Suns team when he had his breakout season.

Until he shows me different; or says he will only accept being the primary scorer/ballhandler in a Woody like ISO system no matter where he goes (system being used instead of a word that would be astericked out). I have no reason to think any different on this topic. If you want to assume that is his mindset; so be it.

Sure Buzzard, I understand what you are saying, but my original point was not what he could do. He has the talent to play in whatever

system he wants to, and do it well. My point is that his compfort zones and default style of play is what we have seen in his tenure here,

since he quietly ran the show. It is important to realize that, because if the new coach wants to run, does it make since to have your main

guy (eating up .333 of payroll) not really inclined to that style of play? Besides if your going to run your main guy should be the ball

distributor (Nash), JJ can do that too, but is he so inclined? No.

In a nutshell, some of you are trying to fuse a player and a team together that don't really fit together, because thats all the options the Hawks have right

now. We'll have to see how the new coach wants to play, but gut feeling is that if we want to win a Championship we are all going to have to be patient

and take a step back for a year (w/o JJ).

[99PROBL3MS]

Joe Johnson's versatility is what will allow him to play in any offense. That isn't the concern. He says he wants to go somewhere he can win but hasn't ruled out returning to the Hawks. We can't ask for anything other than that at this point. Is there anything to your opinion that he won't play in any other style of offense aside from Woody's iso offense? I haven't heard our read him say he prefers that style or even likes it.

He is one of the best offensie players in the league playing offball. He is great on backdoor cuts, coming off pindowns, etc. From reading his comments, it is obvious that he wants help on the offensive end regardless of the system. He will still get his shots and 22-23pts per game. That would be my selling point if I am Sund and the Hawks. Danny Ainge and the Celtics had to use this same approach of convincing with Ray Allen and it worked out for the best. #1JJ, #2Bosh, #3Horf. That is a hell of a trio offensively.

[NJHAWK]

It is true, but the board seems deeply divided whether a S&T is the best option (as opposed to paying him his open market value).

It depends on what we get back and if he is dead set on bolting the Hawks. If he is then a TE is better than nothing at all. It at least gives a legit hope of adding another key piece. Off topic is there a reason for the 5 players you have pictured there. Do they all have something in common besides the obvious fact that they are or were nba players?

[mrhonline]

Do they all have something in common besides the obvious fact that they are or were nba players?

All statistically similar to Joe Johnson offensively, particularly Joe Johnson. :)

Surprisingly, none of them are worth anything remotely close to $90M.

[Tumbleweed]

Joe Johnson's versatility is what will allow him to play in any offense. That isn't the concern. He says he wants to go somewhere he can win but hasn't ruled out returning to the Hawks. We can't ask for anything other than that at this point. Is there anything to your opinion that he won't play in any other style of offense aside from Woody's iso offense? I haven't heard our read him say he prefers that style or even likes it.

He is one of the best offensie players in the league playing offball. He is great on backdoor cuts, coming off pindowns, etc. From reading his comments, it is obvious that he wants help on the offensive end regardless of the system. He will still get his shots and 22-23pts per game. That would be my selling point if I am Sund and the Hawks. Danny Ainge and the Celtics had to use this same approach of convincing with Ray Allen and it worked out for the best. #1JJ, #2Bosh, #3Horf. That is a hell of a trio offensively.

Well, again the issue is not what JJ can do, we all know he can do just about anything he wants to on a basketball court. That's not it at all ,

and I think this subject is important or I would not continue to discuss it.

Number one, I do not believe JJ likes playing in an up tempo offense, we've seen what kind of ball he likes. I explained that above.

Number two, in an up tempo offense JJ's value is diminished because he is not a powerful finisher, and he is just one of five greyhounds

running up and down the floor. So while he would be great to have, his value would not be worth what it would cost to keep him.

Smith and Horford (and Childress) would be great because they play great D, can rebound and either start the break or finish it. And if that is

what the new coach decides to do, we are going to have to find a PG for the system (Teague may be that guy, who knows). I know this topic

has evolved into assuming we are going have a running team, but I think that is what Gearon wants.

[NJHAWK]

All statistically similar to Joe Johnson offensively, particularly Joe Johnson. :)

Surprisingly, none of them are worth anything remotely close to $90M.

When Hawks games get Nat Televised dont they always bring up some stat that says Joe is one of 3 or 4 players who avr over 20 points, plus a certain # of assist and rebounds with the other players being I think Lebron, Wade etc. I dont remember the exact details but they always bring that up. That said 90 mil is a scarry # for me in Joe's situation. Im not sure how many alternatives we have.