Question for the board about Joe Johnson

[mrhonline]

And, by the way, I'm fine with you comparing JJ with Allen and Vince Carter. Both were signed to long-term deals around the same age and subsequently traded once their teams realized they were going nowhere with them as a significant, but aging part of the core.

[niremetal]

Come up with at least six quantifiable criteria that reasonably links JJ to Hall-of-Famers. I'll check in on you in a few years.

First off, you think "strong passer" is a quantifiable criteria? Or "good but not great shooter?" My whole point is that your criteria are only quantifiable if you come up with arbitrarily selected definitions.

At least you're not alone. The talking heads do it all the time on TV. That's how you end up with lists that place Kyrolo Fesenko on the same list as Bill Russell and Kareem (something about team's record in playoff games as a young starting center).

That being said, here are my criteria:

6'5 to 6'8 and played SG or SF

Great perimeter shooter (your definition of good is based on your own arbitrarily selected criteria, so here are mine: Must average at least 1.5 3Ps/gm for his career, must have a career average greater than 35%, must have at least two seasons where he was in the top 5 in 3Ps made)

Great passer for position (would love to know how you quantified this. I'm just gonna do the eye test here - the only one for which I don't have a quantifiable criterion)

Relatively low number of FT attempts (<5.5 per game during career)

Averaged 20ppg at least 5 times

Was the leading scorer on a Top 4 seed at least twice (don't you think that's a rather important indicator of whether a player can be an alpha dog???)

Ray Allen

Joe Johnson

Reggie Miller

I honestly can't find any others. Drexler's 3P% is too low, Pippen only led a top 4 seed in scoring once (that criteria killed a BUNCH of players, including Ritchmond, Finley, and Stack). If you can find others to add to that list, let me know.

You could argue "well you're setting the criterion too low for 'excellent shooter.'" Fine. I'll come right back and say you're setting the bar too low for "good" and too high for "great." I'll also say that JJ is a far better passer than anyone I or you has mentioned with the exception of Pippen and Drexler (who didn't make my list anyway), and that setting the bar as low as "strong passer" (whatever the hell that means) shortchanges one of JJ's most unique skills for a player his size. Set the bar sufficiently high for passer, and JJ is the only one left on your list.

Oh, and that doesn't even get into the fact that you can't quantify good defense, and JJ is a better and more versatile defender than anyone on your list.

I'm not saying my list is more sensible than yours. I'm saying both lists are bad groupings that result from "start with the conclusion, look for the method" reasoning. Just as JJ doesn't belong in the same category as Reggie as a shooter, the guys you mentioned don't belong in JJ's as a defender or passer.

Just admit it. The lines you were arbitrary.

Edited May 17, 2010 by niremetal

[Kimsey]

It's incredible to me that people think you can just extrapolate a player's PPG simply by increasing their FGA. It doesn't work that way even when they're on the same team, and sure as hell doesn't work when they're on different teams.

I chose Iggy out the blue and he is the lowest ppg guy on my list(I shortchanged most of those dudes by .2 or .3 points). Iggy's season averages were 13.7 fga for 17.1 ppg.

He attempted 17 - 24 field goal attempts 19 times for 09 - 10. Those averages equaled 19.3 attempts for 21.3 points a game. I could have cherry picked high scoring games with 16 or less attempts but chose not to.

[99PROBL3MS]

Throw in the fact that JJ is 6'7 (really 6'8) 245lb. making him the biggest SG in NBA history and that makes him even more unique. How many 6'7 240+lb players are versatile and skilled enough to guard PGs like Brandon Jennings well? Maybe Lebron? Shane Battier? (Whose offense is so limmited he doesn't warrant comparison) I think many of us have talked ourselves into believing he is nothing more than a Jalen Rose or Rip Hamilton. That is so far from the truth that it isn't even funny. I hope like hell he stays and proves you guys wrong.

P.s. I know he played bad in the playoffs, but that doesn't change what he is capable of. We all have seen the best he has to offer (07-08 Celtic series) and the worst (09-10 Magic :magnifier: series). If he consistrently plays somehwere in between we have ourselves a winner.

Edited May 18, 2010 by 99PROBL3MS

[Dsinner]

Throw in the fact that JJ is 6'7 (really 6'8) 245lb. making him the biggest SG in NBA history and that makes him even more unique. How many 6'7 240+lb players are versatile and skilled enough to guard PGs like Brandon Jennings well? Maybe Lebron? Shane Battier? (Whose offense is so limmited he doesn't warrant comparison) I think many of us have talked ourselves into believing he is nothing more than a Jalen Rose or Rip Hamilton. That is so far from the truth that it isn't even funny. I hope like hell he stays and proves you guys wrong.

P.s. I know he played bad in the playoffs, but that doesn't change what he is capable of. We all have seen the best he has to offer (07-08 Celtic series) and the worst (09-10 Magic :magnifier: series). If he consistrently plays somehwere in between we have ourselves a winner.

Problem is he's the biggest SG in the history of the NBA that rarely uses that to his advantage. Never gets to the rim in traffic and always fades away when he backs down a smaller player. Problem is he's not athletic enough to use that size. Knee problems haven't helped this.