Question for the board about Joe Johnson

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Joe Johnson's versatility is what will allow him to play in any offense. That isn't the concern. He says he wants to go somewhere he can win but hasn't ruled out returning to the Hawks. We can't ask for anything other than that at this point. Is there anything to your opinion that he won't play in any other style of offense aside from Woody's iso offense? I haven't heard our read him say he prefers that style or even likes it.

He is one of the best offensie players in the league playing offball. He is great on backdoor cuts, coming off pindowns, etc. From reading his comments, it is obvious that he wants help on the offensive end regardless of the system. He will still get his shots and 22-23pts per game. That would be my selling point if I am Sund and the Hawks. Danny Ainge and the Celtics had to use this same approach of convincing with Ray Allen and it worked out for the best. #1JJ, #2Bosh, #3Horf. That is a hell of a trio offensively.

People like to play stupid. They know what JJ brings to the table. It's just too bad he couldn't play like this during the Orlando series, to at least give us a fighting chance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMAa2Fzk_nE

[niremetal]

Hawks can't give him ALL the money. Eleven players earning the NBA minimum and JJ getting all the

rest of it. Great for JJ and his bank account, --- bad for everyone else.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

And JJ is still going to be the #1 option with the Hawks, if he returns. It's not a player on the squad that is good enough to be the focal point of the offense. Even in a "share the ball offense", you want the ball in JJ's hands, seeing that he is one of the best passers on the squad as well.

[niremetal]

All statistically similar to Joe Johnson offensively, particularly Joe Johnson. :)

Surprisingly, none of them are worth anything remotely close to $90M.

Forget the fact that their skill sets were all quite different from JJ's and that they played under coaches who had a f*cking clue. That couldn't possibly matter.

[Swatguy]

If we can get a nice S&T for JJ like Devin Harris and Lee. Trade Smoove for a C like Biendrins and Randolph.

Harris / Teague / Bibby

Crawf / Lee

Chil / MW

Horford / Randolph

Bindrins / Zaza

These are trades that have been debted on trade boards and are somewhat in the realm of the possible. Add a nice coach and the team might be improved.

I kinda like these moves. But I'd rather insert Marvin for Josh and add a #1 if needed.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

When Hawks games get Nat Televised dont they always bring up some stat that says Joe is one of 3 or 4 players who avr over 20 points, plus a certain # of assist and rebounds with the other players being I think Lebron, Wade etc. I dont remember the exact details but they always bring that up. That said 90 mil is a scarry # for me in Joe's situation. Im not sure how many alternatives we have.

The 20 pts - 4 rebs - 4 asst club. This year, it consists of 8 players:

Lebron

Wade

Kobe

Roy

JJ

Tyreke Evans

Arenas

Monta Ellis

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&type=per_game&per_minute_base=36&is_playoffs=N&year_min=2010&year_max=2010&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&lg_id=&franch_id=&is_active=&is_hof=&pos=&qual=&c1stat=pts_per_g&c1comp=gt&c1val=20&c2stat=trb_per_g&c2comp=gt&c2val=4&c3stat=ast_per_g&c3comp=gt&c3val=4&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=ws

[rusty]

And JJ is still going to be the #1 option with the Hawks, if he returns. It's not a player on the squad that is good enough to be the focal point of the offense. Even in a "share the ball offense", you want the ball in JJ's hands, seeing that he is one of the best passers on the squad as well.

right,the man who dribbles the cloak away,wont play uptempo basketball,takes off on defense often ,gets his assists if some one hits a long shot with the cloak running out.& really is the the problem with our iso offense,gee we really have to pay him a lot more money,i forgot that he is a great clutch player some one we can really count on when the going gets rough

[benhillboy]

right,the man who dribbles the cloak away,wont play uptempo basketball,takes off on defense often ,gets his assists if some one hits a long shot with the cloak running out.& really is the the problem with our iso offense,gee we really have to pay him a lot more money,i forgot that he is a great clutch player some one we can really count on when the going gets rough

It's no use rusty. I've been detailing his glaring flaws for some time now. Joe lovers will never see the error in their thinking. They're a lost cause.

Edited May 16, 2010 by benhillboy

[Tumbleweed]

It's no use rusty. I've been detailing his glaring flaws for some time now. Joe lovers will never see the error in their thinking. They're a lost cause.

The Hawks only turned into a winning team after Horford came. It did not start with JJ's tenure. I think people here

will be pleasantly surprised when this team keeps winning after he is gone. JJ does not have that unstopable will

to win like the Wades, LeBrons (excuse me I have to puke), Kobes (puke again), or even Horford (reminds me of

Mourning). Don't blow 90 big ones Gearon!

[mrhonline]

Forget the fact that their skill sets were all quite different from JJ's and that they played under coaches who had a f*cking clue. That couldn't possibly matter.

You're wrong on all three counts. Congrats.

[niremetal]

You're wrong on all three counts. Congrats.

You basically just picked 4 shooting guards with similar scoring stats whose production fell off around age 30 and lumped them together with JJ because it keeps you from having to articulate a real argument. Congrats.

Edited May 17, 2010 by niremetal

[Kimsey]

Joe Johnson took 18.2 field goal attempts in 09-10. Here are similar players to Joe with their shot attempts adjusted to Joe's.

1. Maggette - 25.2 ppg

2. Granger - 24.1 ppg

3. Pierce - 24 ppg

4. G. Wallace - 24 ppg

5. Billups - 23.7 ppg

6. Tyreke Evans - 21.8

7. Gay - 21.3 ppg

8. Joe Johnson - 21.3 ppg

9. Deng - 21 ppg

10. Stephen Jackson - 20.8 ppg

11. Iguodala - 20.5 ppg

None of these dudes are worth maximumesque money except for Evans, and that's way in the future.

[niremetal]

Joe Johnson took 18.2 field goal attempts in 09-10. Here are similar players to Joe with their shot attempts adjusted to Joe's.

1. Maggette - 25.2 ppg

2. Granger - 24.1 ppg

3. Pierce - 24 ppg

4. G. Wallace - 24 ppg

5. Billups - 23.7 ppg

6. Tyreke Evans - 21.8

7. Gay - 21.3 ppg

8. Joe Johnson - 21.3 ppg

9. Deng - 21 ppg

10. Stephen Jackson - 20.8 ppg

11. Iguodala - 20.5 ppg

None of these dudes are worth maximumesque money except for Evans, and that's way in the future.

It's incredible to me that people think you can just extrapolate a player's PPG simply by increasing their FGA. It doesn't work that way even when they're on the same team, and sure as hell doesn't work when they're on different teams.

[jezmund]

It's incredible to me that people think you can just extrapolate a player's PPG simply by increasing their FGA. It doesn't work that way even when they're on the same team, and sure as hell doesn't work when they're on different teams.

Very interesting. Our only hope is to get something in return for him and then we have to consider moving Josh Smith or Al Horford, preferably Josh.

[mrhonline]

You basically just picked 4 shooting guards with similar scoring stats whose production fell off around age 30 and lumped them together with JJ because it keeps you from having to articulate a real argument. Congrats.

Actually, I went looking for players with a significant number of the following traits:

High usage

6'5 or taller

Relative difficulty in getting to the FT line

Strong passers

Good, but not great perimeter shooting

Not overwhelmingly athletic

All but about 10 guards in the history of the NBA haven't seen their production start declining around age 30. I don't need to prove JJ will decline in production in the near future. It's a given.

[niremetal]

Actually, I went looking for players with a significant number of the following traits:

High usage

6'5 or taller

Relative difficulty in getting to the FT line

Strong passers

Good, but not great perimeter shooting

Not overwhelmingly athletic

All but about 10 guards in the history of the NBA haven't seen their production start declining around age 30. I don't need to prove JJ will decline in production in the near future. It's a given.

You focused on what you perceive as Joe's weaknesses rather than his strengths (and you really think Joe is merely a "good" perimeter shooter?), and obviously took a broad reading of what a "strong passer" is. If you're looking to make a list to confirm what you already believe, you can probably come up with criteria that will do it. That's exactly what you did here.

Edited May 17, 2010 by niremetal

[mrhonline]

You focused on what you perceive as Joe's weaknesses rather than his strengths (and you really think Joe is merely a "good" perimeter shooter?), and obviously took a broad reading of what a "strong passer" is. If you're looking to make a list to confirm what you already believe, you can probably come up with criteria that will do it. That's exactly what you did here.

I listed his strengths: good perimeter shooter, strong passer, high usage (this river runs both directions), taller guard...

[mrhonline]

As far as perimeter shooting, there were over 40 players who shot a higher 3FG% than Joe on at least as many shots per minute in 2009-10 (500 minute minimum).

[niremetal]

As far as perimeter shooting, there were over 40 players who shot a higher 3FG% than Joe on at least as many shots per minute in 2009-10 (500 minute minimum).

Yeah, because the system in which JJ played, which almost never created open shots for JJ unless he created it himself, couldn't possibly affect that. Come on. He shot 48% from deep in his last year in Phoenix. He's one of the best shooters in the league when he gets an inch of daylight. The problem is that he rarely has since he arrived in Atlanta. At the very least, you have to know that your assessment is arguable.

I listed his strengths: good perimeter shooter, strong passer, high usage (this river runs both directions), taller guard...

Can defend 3-4 positions, excellent perimeter shooter (you are going REALLY against the grain by calling him good-but-not-great), excellent passer for a non-PG, sufficient upper body strength and height to post up SFs, great at creating separation...and it's absurd to pretend that Jerry Stackhouse and JJ are comparable in terms of shooting or passing ability, or that Finley was the level of playmaker that JJ is.

My point is this. I could just as easily come up with criteria that would result in a list containing JJ along with Reggie Miller, Ray Allen, and other Hall of Fame level players. That would be no more disingenuous or silly than your list. All I would have to do is find some list of criteria that would seem to confirm my hypothesis. "Leading scorer on a 50-win team" and using "outstanding" instead of "good" as a perimeter shooter would be a good start. Neither would be any more arbitrary/skewed than the criteria you selected. I mean, JJ as "outstanding" is no more absurd than Stackhouse as "good," certainly at the time Stackhouse was JJ's age.

Every player is different. JJ's skill set doesn't have an exact parallel. You are being really, really disingenuous if you don't admit that your list is not largely a product of confirmation bias.

Edited May 17, 2010 by niremetal

[mrhonline]

He shot 48% from deep in his last year in Phoenix.

And never did that again. There's simply no objective reason to think that WASN'T the fluke season, nire.

But if you wanna figure out how to get Steve Nash to the Hawks, go for it.

Can defend 3-4 positions

Seriously?

excellent passer for a non-PG

Mentioned that already.

sufficient upper body strength and height to post up SFs

Never does that. He backs them down to take a fade-away jumper.

great at creating separation...

Which he uses to take some of the toughest shots in the NBA.

My point is this. I could just as easily come up with criteria that would result in a list containing JJ along with Reggie Miller, Ray Allen, and other Hall of Fame level players.

Then do it.

Come up with at least six quantifiable criteria that reasonably links JJ to Hall-of-Famers. I'll check in on you in a few years.