Everyone is saying we need a Center! Question?

[clicklandshopping]

Not the top PF that can play Center! Not talking about who we could have drafted or traded for. I still dont want Shaq for 8million, but I see why he wants so much money!

Edited July 17, 2010 by clicklandshopping

[KB21]

I blogged about this here.

The source of this issue is the misguided premise that some Hawks fans have, and that premise is that to be a center, you have to be 7'0" and 280+ pounds. What's ignored is the fact that the better centers in the NBA today are mostly undersized guys who would have been power forwards 15 years ago, and that's including Al Horford. The game has changed a lot since then. There are very few functional seven footers in the NBA anymore, and I think the list Basketbal Prospectus detailed that I linked in my blog shows this. Look at the guys who were the two best "centers" of this free agent crop - Amare Stoudemire and David Lee.

The fact is, there never really was a good cost to benefit option among the center group, with the possible exception of Jermaine O'Neal, who I think could have been a good signing for a two year deal. Many wanted Shaq, but I think BP detailed why he isn't necessarily a great fit, and I took it a little farther to include the locker room issues Shaq would likely cause.

I firmly believe that Hawks fans need to change thier view on what is needed in a center in the NBA today. In today's game, if you cannot move your feet and do not have multiple skills at this position, then you aren't going to be a very big minutes producer. More and more undersized centers are coming into the league, and if it hasn't already happened, the so called true seven foot center will become a dinosaur in the NBA. Even the perimeter oriented seven footers from the European style of play are having trouble getting minutes.

Even if you looked at a trade for a center, the same issues will arrise. The best center that was on the trading block this offseason was Al Jefferson, yet another undersized guy that wouldn't have filled the fans desire for that "true center".

Now, what this list does show is how foolish it was for the Hawks to not use that 31st pick on a center prospect they could have worked with and developed. Look at the list. Do you really think any of the players the Hawks could get for the league minimum salary would give them more than the potential that a guy like Hassan Whiteside brings to the table?

[Skar]

Horford is not a center, we do need a center.

[clicklandshopping]

I blogged about this here.

The source of this issue is the misguided premise that some Hawks fans have, and that premise is that to be a center, you have to be 7'0" and 280+ pounds. What's ignored is the fact that the better centers in the NBA today are mostly undersized guys who would have been power forwards 15 years ago, and that's including Al Horford. The game has changed a lot since then. There are very few functional seven footers in the NBA anymore, and I think the list Basketbal Prospectus detailed that I linked in my blog shows this. Look at the guys who were the two best "centers" of this free agent crop - Amare Stoudemire and David Lee.

The fact is, there never really was a good cost to benefit option among the center group, with the possible exception of Jermaine O'Neal, who I think could have been a good signing for a two year deal. Many wanted Shaq, but I think BP detailed why he isn't necessarily a great fit, and I took it a little farther to include the locker room issues Shaq would likely cause.

I firmly believe that Hawks fans need to change thier view on what is needed in a center in the NBA today. In today's game, if you cannot move your feet and do not have multiple skills at this position, then you aren't going to be a very big minutes producer. More and more undersized centers are coming into the league, and if it hasn't already happened, the so called true seven foot center will become a dinosaur in the NBA. Even the perimeter oriented seven footers from the European style of play are having trouble getting minutes.

Even if you looked at a trade for a center, the same issues will arrise. The best center that was on the trading block this offseason was Al Jefferson, yet another undersized guy that wouldn't have filled the fans desire for that "true center".

Now, what this list does show is how foolish it was for the Hawks to not use that 31st pick on a center prospect they could have worked with and developed. Look at the list. Do you really think any of the players the Hawks could get for the league minimum salary would give them more than the potential that a guy like Hassan Whiteside brings to the table?

Thank you for explaining that! I really didn't want to write that much........LOL!!!

[clicklandshopping]

Horford is not a center, we do need a center.

Well it ain't none in the NBA. Maybe we should look in the D-League like Diesel said!!!

[KB21]

Horford is not a center, we do need a center.

Well then neither is Dwight Howard, Chris Bosh, Al Jefferson, Amare Stoudemire, and David Lee despite the fact that all of them played the majority of their minutes as centers and when listed along with Al Horford are 6 of the top 10 centers in the NBA period. As I stated, you need to change your view of what a center is, because if you don't, you are going to be stuck with the idea that Aaron Gray should be a starter in the NBA just because he is big.

[AHF]

I blogged about this here.

The source of this issue is the misguided premise that some Hawks fans have, and that premise is that to be a center, you have to be 7'0" and 280+ pounds. What's ignored is the fact that the better centers in the NBA today are mostly undersized guys who would have been power forwards 15 years ago, and that's including Al Horford. The game has changed a lot since then. There are very few functional seven footers in the NBA anymore, and I think the list Basketbal Prospectus detailed that I linked in my blog shows this. Look at the guys who were the two best "centers" of this free agent crop - Amare Stoudemire and David Lee.

The fact is, there never really was a good cost to benefit option among the center group, with the possible exception of Jermaine O'Neal, who I think could have been a good signing for a two year deal. Many wanted Shaq, but I think BP detailed why he isn't necessarily a great fit, and I took it a little farther to include the locker room issues Shaq would likely cause.

I firmly believe that Hawks fans need to change thier view on what is needed in a center in the NBA today. In today's game, if you cannot move your feet and do not have multiple skills at this position, then you aren't going to be a very big minutes producer. More and more undersized centers are coming into the league, and if it hasn't already happened, the so called true seven foot center will become a dinosaur in the NBA. Even the perimeter oriented seven footers from the European style of play are having trouble getting minutes.

Even if you looked at a trade for a center, the same issues will arrise. The best center that was on the trading block this offseason was Al Jefferson, yet another undersized guy that wouldn't have filled the fans desire for that "true center".

Now, what this list does show is how foolish it was for the Hawks to not use that 31st pick on a center prospect they could have worked with and developed. Look at the list. Do you really think any of the players the Hawks could get for the league minimum salary would give them more than the potential that a guy like Hassan Whiteside brings to the table?

You are preaching to the choir on that.

Edited July 17, 2010 by AHF

[clicklandshopping]

Well then neither is Dwight Howard, Chris Bosh, Al Jefferson, Amare Stoudemire, and David Lee despite the fact that all of them played the majority of their minutes as centers and when listed along with Al Horford are 6 of the top 10 centers in the NBA period. As I stated, you need to change your view of what a center is, because if you don't, you are going to be stuck with the idea that Aaron Gray should be a starter in the NBA just because he is big.

Dude, I'm with you on these points. That's why I gave you a +1. I asked the question because it should explain why Hordford is our center...You feel me!!

[Diesel]

I blogged about this here.

The source of this issue is the misguided premise that some Hawks fans have, and that premise is that to be a center, you have to be 7'0" and 280+ pounds. What's ignored is the fact that the better centers in the NBA today are mostly undersized guys who would have been power forwards 15 years ago, and that's including Al Horford. The game has changed a lot since then. There are very few functional seven footers in the NBA anymore, and I think the list Basketbal Prospectus detailed that I linked in my blog shows this. Look at the guys who were the two best "centers" of this free agent crop - Amare Stoudemire and David Lee.

The fact is, there never really was a good cost to benefit option among the center group, with the possible exception of Jermaine O'Neal, who I think could have been a good signing for a two year deal. Many wanted Shaq, but I think BP detailed why he isn't necessarily a great fit, and I took it a little farther to include the locker room issues Shaq would likely cause.

I firmly believe that Hawks fans need to change thier view on what is needed in a center in the NBA today. In today's game, if you cannot move your feet and do not have multiple skills at this position, then you aren't going to be a very big minutes producer. More and more undersized centers are coming into the league, and if it hasn't already happened, the so called true seven foot center will become a dinosaur in the NBA. Even the perimeter oriented seven footers from the European style of play are having trouble getting minutes.

Even if you looked at a trade for a center, the same issues will arrise. The best center that was on the trading block this offseason was Al Jefferson, yet another undersized guy that wouldn't have filled the fans desire for that "true center".

Now, what this list does show is how foolish it was for the Hawks to not use that 31st pick on a center prospect they could have worked with and developed. Look at the list. Do you really think any of the players the Hawks could get for the league minimum salary would give them more than the potential that a guy like Hassan Whiteside brings to the table?

KB, your commentary lacks vision.

In the East, we have PF- C combinations of Lopez/Cousins, Howard/Lewis, Randolph/Stoudamire, Perkins/KG, Big Z/Bosh, Dampiere/Thomas, Bogut/Gooden, Noah/Boozer, Hibbert/Murphy, Blathche/N'Daiye and Hawes/Brand. The East have gotten a whole lot more physical. Everybody has a good 7 footer. What do we have? We have a 6'9 C who struggles against 7 footers. The window when there were no 7 footers in contention is close. Some Clubs have 2 7 footers who can play good minutes. Against Orlando, we saw what happens to the PF who wants to play against a 7 foot C that has strength. By game 4, Horf was wiped out. It's hard going to war against a guy who fights every minute for his position and you have no help. Don't blame it on the defense, the truth is that we have a smash mouth undersized C and a finesse PF. That's a bad combination against what the East is about to unleash.

[Jody23]

I think the bigger issue is the main rotation in the front court (Smith and Horford play the most minutes) is undersized and will struggle or be ineffective against bigger frontlines on both ends of the floor and on the boards like they were this year. A new offense is not going to fix that problem. Neither will bringing in a bigger guy to play 10-15 minutes a night. If you take an honest look at the teams who end up playing for the title, you'll see that they NEVER play small ball. I think the Hawks will be a more uptempo team this year and will win a lot of games in the regular season, but when the playoffs come around and they play against bigger teams, they will struggle and revert to a perimeter team (jump shooting) on the offense end. As fun as good offense is to look at, the game is won or lost in the paint come playoff time. After winning two titles with two other big men alongside him at Florida in Richard and Noah, Horford realizes this and that's what's behind his comments about needing more help. We could talk about the undersized guys playing center today, but those guys aren't winning titles.

[Jody23]

KB, your commentary lacks vision.

In the East, we have PF- C combinations of Lopez/Cousins, Howard/Lewis, Randolph/Stoudamire, Perkins/KG, Big Z/Bosh, Dampiere/Thomas, Bogut/Gooden, Noah/Boozer, Hibbert/Murphy, Blathche/N'Daiye and Hawes/Brand. The East have gotten a whole lot more physical. Everybody has a good 7 footer. What do we have? We have a 6'9 C who struggles against 7 footers. The window when there were no 7 footers in contention is close. Some Clubs have 2 7 footers who can play good minutes. Against Orlando, we saw what happens to the PF who wants to play against a 7 foot C that has strength. By game 4, Horf was wiped out. It's hard going to war against a guy who fights every minute for his position and you have no help. Don't blame it on the defense, the truth is that we have a smash mouth undersized C and a finesse PF. That's a bad combination against what the East is about to unleash.

+1

Great post.

[Diesel]

+1

Great post.

Why do I always get these imaginary +1s?

[tremor]

Diesel and Jody - very good points. Boston got to the finals with four very good bigs - Perk, KG, Wallace and, yes, Big Baby Davis. That's one of main reasons why they beat Cavs and Magic. It's possible to win 50+ games without true C and get to the second round but that's it. Game changed, no more true 7-footers? Let's look at last year PO teams in the East: Magic have Dwight and Gortat, Cavs had Shaq, Big Z and Varejao, Bobcats - Chandler, Mohammed and Ratliff, Bulls - Noah, Bucks - Bogut, Heat - JO.

[Dsinner]

It doesn't matter if a player like Al is the NBA's new center. What good does that do us when our "center" doesn't think he is a center? I could give a rat's *ss what HS's think a NBA center is when our center doesn't think he is one. That means he walks and then not only do we not have an "old school" center but we will be without "today's NBA" center as well. Bottom line is if we want to keep Al we better find a "true" center.

[clicklandshopping]

KB, your commentary lacks vision.

In the East, we have PF- C combinations of Lopez/Cousins, Howard/Lewis, Randolph/Stoudamire, Perkins/KG, Big Z/Bosh, Dampiere/Thomas, Bogut/Gooden, Noah/Boozer, Hibbert/Murphy, Blathche/N'Daiye and Hawes/Brand. The East have gotten a whole lot more physical. Everybody has a good 7 footer. What do we have? We have a 6'9 C who struggles against 7 footers. The window when there were no 7 footers in contention is close. Some Clubs have 2 7 footers who can play good minutes. Against Orlando, we saw what happens to the PF who wants to play against a 7 foot C that has strength. By game 4, Horf was wiped out. It's hard going to war against a guy who fights every minute for his position and you have no help. Don't blame it on the defense, the truth is that we have a smash mouth undersized C and a finesse PF. That's a bad combination against what the East is about to unleash.

Very good points, but you didn't answer the question. I looked at the pinned topic area about 2010 free agent. I looked under Centers, you know those 7ft guys and there were not much picking. The best centers on that list were Brendon Hayward and Shaq. We are trying to get Shaq but he wants too much money. Everyone seems to put down just about everyone else on the list. The best we can do is get someone on that list who will fit in our scheme. We already have our Stoudamire,KG,Bosh,Thomas,Gooden,Boozer,Murphy,Cousins,Lewis. Brand,N'Daiye in Al Horford or Josh Smith. Shaq is most likely not coming.....So who are we picking from that 2010 Free Agent List for a center???? Or who are we trading for????

[KB21]

I think the bigger issue is the main rotation in the front court (Smith and Horford play the most minutes) is undersized and will struggle or be ineffective against bigger frontlines on both ends of the floor and on the boards like they were this year. A new offense is not going to fix that problem. Neither will bringing in a bigger guy to play 10-15 minutes a night. If you take an honest look at the teams who end up playing for the title, you'll see that they NEVER play small ball. I think the Hawks will be a more uptempo team this year and will win a lot of games in the regular season, but when the playoffs come around and they play against bigger teams, they will struggle and revert to a perimeter team (jump shooting) on the offense end. As fun as good offense is to look at, the game is won or lost in the paint come playoff time. After winning two titles with two other big men alongside him at Florida in Richard and Noah, Horford realizes this and that's what's behind his comments about needing more help. We could talk about the undersized guys playing center today, but those guys aren't winning titles.

I don't think this is the case at all because there are very few teams that have a power forward/center combo that gives Al Horford and Josh Smith trouble. Dwight Howard is a hard match up, but he's a hard match up against anyone. Neither Josh nor Al struggle against Boston's big front line, and they have one of the more functional front lines in basketball.

The team that won the NBA championship is clearly better when they play small ball, because in clutch moments, they have Pau Gasol and Lamar Odom on the floor at center and power forward respectively, not Andrew Bynum, the only one on that team that is a "true center". Pau is a seven footer, but he's not a banger down low. He's clearly a finess player, but his athleticism and length is what gives team's problems, not his size.

[KB21]

It doesn't matter if a player like Al is the NBA's new center. What good does that do us when our "center" doesn't think he is a center? I could give a rat's *ss what HS's think a NBA center is when our center doesn't think he is one. That means he walks and then not only do we not have an "old school" center but we will be without "today's NBA" center as well. Bottom line is if we want to keep Al we better find a "true" center.

I have never once heard or seen Al Hoford make the comment that he's not a center. In fact, in his most recent comments, he said that he has no problem playing center and realizes that the Hawks are better with him at center. He stated that he just wants to get him AND Josh some rebounding help. This idea that Al Horford is going to leave if he doesn't play power foward is nothing but supposition that has been made up. The fact is that in todays game, there is very little difference between the center and the power forward position.

[KB21]

Diesel and Jody - very good points. Boston got to the finals with four very good bigs - Perk, KG, Wallace and, yes, Big Baby Davis. That's one of main reasons why they beat Cavs and Magic. It's possible to win 50+ games without true C and get to the second round but that's it. Game changed, no more true 7-footers? Let's look at last year PO teams in the East: Magic have Dwight and Gortat, Cavs had Shaq, Big Z and Varejao, Bobcats - Chandler, Mohammed and Ratliff, Bulls - Noah, Bucks - Bogut, Heat - JO.

On that list you made, Dwight is not a 7 footer. He's 6'10". Joakim Noah also isn't a 7 footer, but he lacks an inch, so it is negligible. Bogut is a seven footer and is one of the few functional seven footers in the game. Jermaine O'neal is not a seven footer. Neither is Anderson Varejao, Nazr Mohammed, or Theo Ratliff.

Of the guys you listed, Andrew Bogut is the only one that could give the Hawks some trouble at center.

[Diesel]

We are trying to get Shaq but he wants too much money.

First off, let me say this... and i think this is a major area of disagreement that I have with our ownership/GM and most of the fans here.

What is the basis for saying that Shaq wants "too much money".

Horf per 36 = 14.5 ppg, 10.1 rpg, 55.1% FG%.

Shaq per 36 = 18.5 ppg, 10.3 rpg, 56.6% FG%. Per game = 12.ppg, 6.7 rpg, 23.4 mpg.

Miller per 36 = 13.3 ppg, 7.4 rpg, 43.0% FG%. Per game = 8.8 ppg, 4.9 rpg, 23.8 mpg. 3 yr 15 Million dollars. (5 Million per)

Heywood per 36 = 10.8 ppg, 10.9 rpg, 56.2% FG%. Per game = 9.1 ppg, 9.3 rpg, in 30.6 mpg. 6 yr 55 Milliondollars ( 9.1 Million per)

So here's the deal. In the aforementioned SNT, Shaq would get Marvin's contract. I would start him out at 6.0 Million.. That makes a 2 year 12.6 Million dollar deal. TO on the Second year. To me, this is a great deal when you consider the output that Shaq has given compared to Heywood and Miller. It's more than the MLE. It's good money. We free up money to sign Horf with and we still have a few more million to go after a BU PG.

The point is that we can't continue to say that Shaq is not worth 6 Million... not by the numbers. Moreover, I haven't even gotten into how he would effect this teams visibility. Lastly, there's a smear campaign to make Shaq out to be TO... Shaq is no T.O.

This was Kevin Garnett at his vociferous best. Leaning into Amare Stoudemire’s ear, releasing a torrent of four-lettered barbs that should have had David Stern wondering why he ever thought attaching a microphone to a player’s jersey made for a good idea.

Stoudemire laughed. He had played this game with KG all too often, but not Friday. Garnett yapped. Stoudemire smiled. And so it went until the Phoenix Suns and Boston Celtics went to their benches at the end of the first quarter. Suns coach Mike D’Antoni turned to Sean Marks and told him to take Garnett.

“No,” Stoudemire growled. “Give him to me. He’s mine.”

That said something about Stoudemire, as well as what happened next. Over the ensuing eight minutes, he frustrated Garnett into three fouls, the last coming on an offensive violation when Garnett chipped him with an elbow to clear space. Garnett would go on to get a brief lecture from his coach about the importance of reining in one’s emotions, and the Celtics slipped out of US Airways Center with a three-game losing streak trailing them for the first time this season. Stoudemire? He had scored 28 points and swatted three shots to lead Phoenix to an unusually gritty 85-77 victory.

Shaquille O’Neal came to the Suns hoping to see that very type of performance. The first time he walked through Phoenix’s locker room two weeks ago, O’Neal delivered this message to Stoudemire: I’m not hearing enough about you. Every time O’Neal turned on the TV, it was always Garnett or Dwight Howard or Tim Duncan earning the praise. It was up to Stoudemire to correct that.

Weeks shy of another birthday, the center of this NBA generation and four-time champion is having a blast in his first season with the Cleveland Cavaliers.

“This is the funnest, funniest team I’ve ever been on in my life,” Shaq said, keeping one eye on a few teammates holding a post-practice dunk contest. “This is a close-knit group.”

Shaq Daddy is helping them bond.

Pried away in a trade with Phoenix last June to aid LeBron James’ drive for a first championship, O’Neal has helped the Cavs move atop the league’s standings and positioned them to end the city’s 46-year drought without a major sports title.

The preseason speculation that this arranged marriage with James might not work was off base. O’Neal and James are happy together, two icons sharing the spotlight without an outward trace of jealousy.

As long as the Cavs are winning, there won’t be any trouble.

“It’s his show and I’m just trying to make him look good,” O’Neal said. “If we were the same age there might be a little tension, but I’m on my way out.”

O’Neal has settled into Cleveland. Instead of living downtown, where the nightlife — while clearly not at the level of Los Angeles or Miami — could be a distraction, he opted for a place in rural Richfield, not far from where the Cavaliers played from 1970 through the mid-1990s.

The father of three boys, each of whom claims James as their favorite player, O’Neal is at a different place in his celebrated life. His wife, Shaunie, filed for divorce in November and O’Neal has taken on a lower profile in Cleveland.

[Dsinner]

I have never once heard or seen Al Hoford make the comment that he's not a center. In fact, in his most recent comments, he said that he has no problem playing center and realizes that the Hawks are better with him at center. He stated that he just wants to get him AND Josh some rebounding help. This idea that Al Horford is going to leave if he doesn't play power foward is nothing but supposition that has been made up. The fact is that in todays game, there is very little difference between the center and the power forward position.

Unless of course you're talking about the NBA champs who have 2 legit "true" centers. Let's see they played the Celtics in the finals who have 2 "true" defensive centers. In today's NBA the champs (and runner ups) don't have PF's playing center.

Forget the champs, we're not getting past Orlando with Horford playing center.