Did Horford deserve to be an All-Star?

[lethalweapon3]

Actually LW,

Being the first option means that you see all of the defensive pressure. Especially on a team with little or weak 2nd options. That means that for all of their wins at the time of the voting, Bogut was responsible for them. ON the other hand, Horf was the 4th option. He was not under the defensive pressure that Bogut was under. They were not drawing up gameplans to stop Horf. Horf was just another cog in the machine. That doesn't make him worthy of an individual award. Was Scott Williams worthy of an allstar pick? What about Bill Wennington? That's what you're saying. You're saying because Horf was a 4th option and put up respectable numbers that he deserves more credit than a guy who was always the focus of the other teams defense and put up better numbers than Horf?

And Somebody gave you a +1 for that?

I promise you, if the shoe was on the other foot, there would be no way that anybody here would say that Horf was more worthy. We have a lot of Homerism here. Hell, Horf was not more worthy than Smoove either.

Did Scott Williams ever put up those numbers as a 4th option? Beef Wennington? Al did his so-called 4th option better than anyone in the league, as a center on a 1st place team, and was rewarded for it appropriately. Never mind that Option 3 usually has to come in to spell Option 1. Coaches and GMs don't see options on individual teams, they see a center holding his own on both ends in a prime position for a winning team. Bynum is a 4th option (KB24, Pau, Kardashian) and is a perennial candidate if he stays healthy because he is a Center doin work.

If the shoe were on the other foot, we would indeed be whining. And, of course, we would be wrong.

~lw3

[lethalweapon3]

You are looking on a Hawks board for posts that Horford shouldn't have gotten in? That is pretty funny. Go to any general NBA board and you will find as many of those posts as you have time to read.

Bogut played his best basketball before the break. Bogut went from not making the All-Star team to trouncing Horford in the All-NBA voting in 24 games even though Bogut didn't do much after the break. The only argument you can make in Horford's defense is team record which is self explanatory.

Links, please! I even provided homer links and broke their Milwaukee's Best-induced argument down for us in the post that followed it. There was no bellyaching outside of the Land of Cheddar for Bogut in the All-Star Game. At best, he was a candidate for the All-Nice Try team. And if there was, you can guarantee you'd have found a Hawksquawk thread making these arguments on both sides back when it was actually relevant.

One more time, Bogut deserved to be the Center making the All-NBA Team, in May, NOT the All-Star Team, in January. Winning makes the difference. And making the 3rd Team All-NBA is not a terribly good definition of "trouncing." That we are having such impassioned arguments in August that none of us had in January should tell you something.

One way to get attention about your importance to a team is by having a horrific injury played on national television right before your team could clinch a playoff spot. Even though the Bucks made it to the 5th spot without him somehow (five straight wins). Maybe Salmons should've gotten 3rd Team All-NBA instead!

~lw3

[clicklandshopping]

... AND because the Bucks started actually winning in those 24 games. As you've shown, Bogut's numbers obviously did not improve from November to January enough for voters to notice. Maybe 25/15/4 blocks would've gotten him some more attention, especially while Jennings struggled after his coming-out show, but short of that, being the same also-ran the Bucks were in November did not help his cause at All-Star selection time.

Conversely, Gerald Wallace got the nod over Smoove because he AND the then-losing-record Bobcats got hot (10-4, including a six-game homestand sweep) just in time for the selection show (and since nobody was keen on giving the Hawks 3 All-Stars). If the Bucks were winning at the 'Cats clip at the time, Bogut's case would have been stronger.

Here was the thread when Al got selected... were there any impassioned pleas for Bogut in it? (I'm just starting to snoop myself)

http://www.hawksquawk.net/community/index.php/topic/343137-looks-like-al-horford-made-the-allstar-team-and-not-josh/

~lw3

I plussed it for ya clickland.

~lw3

Thank you! Good looking out!

[lethalweapon3]

LessQualitySIte (Bucks Forum): "Will Bogut Be An All-Star Reserve?"

Not even the Bucks fans could muster up any solid reasons for Bogut over Horford at the time. No "travesty of justice" stuff with any data to support it.

The biggest criticizer from a national source was more concerned about Smoove vs. Horford, rather than Bogut.

http://espn.go.com/b...t-see-in-dallas

Quote

Josh Smith

Quoting John Hollinger's Twitter feed: "Horford and Johnson made the All-Star team and Josh Smith didn't. I guess nobody actually watched the Hawks this year." One theory is that Smith has a reputation as being hard to coach. When coaches do the choosing that can hurt you. There is really no analysis by which Allen Iverson has outplayed Josh Smith this year. If someone can't play because of injury (or if writer Sherman Alexie's poetic plea to Iverson to stand down takes root), Smith is a logical replacement.

Quote

Andrew Bogut, Joakim Noah, Anderson Varejao

After Dwight Howard, who is the best big man in the East? Hard to say. But this squad was always going to need more than one big. Al Horford won the "next best big man" spot, but it could have easily gone to Bogut, who anchors a good Bucks team, Horford's college teammate Noah, who has been the engine that drives the Bulls, or Varejao, who -- despite a reputation as a low-skill energy player -- is clearly the best big man on what has been the NBA's best team in the first half.

Again, nothing more than tepid reactions to Horford making it over Bogut (or Noah, or Varejao, or...)

David Lee

John Hollinger wrote the other day that, thanks to an improved jumper, Lee's offensive production makes him an easy pick to be an All-Star, even if you acknowledge that he is far from the world's best defender. Worth noting, however, is that of the 14 All-Stars picked by the coaches (seven for each East and West) not one came from a team with a losing record. Maybe this one was over before it started for David Lee.

Seems like the argument should be "Why did Lee make it as an injury replacement over Bogut?" Let's take that discussion up over at KnickSquawk.

~lw3

Edited August 6, 2010 by lethalweapon3

[exodus]

Links, please! I even provided homer links and broke their Milwaukee's Best-induced argument down for us in the post that followed it. There was no bellyaching outside of the Land of Cheddar for Bogut in the All-Star Game. At best, he was a candidate for the All-Nice Try team. And if there was, you can guarantee you'd have found a Hawksquawk thread making these arguments on both sides back when it was actually relevant.

One more time, Bogut deserved to be the Center making the All-NBA Team, in May, NOT the All-Star Team, in January. Winning makes the difference. And making the 3rd Team All-NBA is not a terribly good definition of "trouncing." That we are having such impassioned arguments in August that none of us had in January should tell you something.

One way to get attention about your importance to a team is by having a horrific injury played on national television right before your team could clinch a playoff spot. Even though the Bucks made it to the 5th spot without him somehow (five straight wins). Maybe Salmons should've gotten 3rd Team All-NBA instead!

~lw3

Any general NBA board (insidehoops.com, realgm) expressed widespread surprise and Horford being in the All-Star team. It wasn't a secret. Just because you don't follow general NBA boards doesn't mean there wasn't any surprise regarding Horfords selection and boguts ommission.

This from ESPN.

Andrew Bogut, Joakim Noah, Anderson Varejao

After Dwight Howard, who is the best big man in the East? Hard to say. But this squad was always going to need more than one big. Al Horford won the "next best big man" spot, but it could have easily gone to Bogut, who anchors a good Bucks team, Horford's college teammate Noah, who has been the engine that drives the Bulls, or Varejao, who -- despite a reputation as a low-skill energy player -- is clearly the best big man on what has been the NBA's best team in the first half.

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/12677/who-you-wont-see-in-dallas

That was tame compared to what i was seeing on the boards. Inside hoops was trashing Horford so badly that i actually spent several days defending him over Lee.

And yes Boguts 149 points compared to 19 points for Horford in the All-NBA selection was a complete trouncing. Twenty four games where Bogut didn't play his best basketball is not enough to make that much of a difference.

[exodus]

Any general NBA board (insidehoops.com, realgm) expressed widespread surprise and Horford being in the All-Star team. It wasn't a secret. Just because you don't follow general NBA boards doesn't mean there wasn't any surprise regarding Horfords selection and boguts ommission.

This from ESPN.

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/12677/who-you-wont-see-in-dallas

That was tame compared to what i was seeing on the boards. Inside hoops was trashing Horford so badly that i actually spent several days defending him over Lee.

And yes Boguts 149 points compared to 19 points for Horford in the All-NBA selection was a complete trouncing. Twenty four games where Bogut didn't play his best basketball is not enough to make that much of a difference.

Here is the 13 page thread i was talking about. I am tontoz over at ISH.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=161961

[lethalweapon3]

^ Thanks ex, I'll check it out in a sec. Also, a self-correction, Lee was not an injury replacement as AI wasn't "injured" (personal leave).

And a look at the fan results showed fans didn't have much love for Bogut at the time, either. (We know the deal with Bargs. Don't you just love Toronto fans?)

FINAL EAST 2010 NBA ALL STAR VOTING RESULTS

Guards: Dwyane Wade (Mia) 2,327,550; Allen Iverson (Phi) 1,269,568; Vince Carter (Orl) 1,048,977; Ray Allen (Bos) 710,045; Derrick Rose (Chi) 571,911; Gilbert Arenas (Was) 545,860; Joe Johnson (Atl) 496,255; Rajon Rondo (Bos) 425,590; Jose Calderon (Tor) 292,909; Mike Bibby (Atl) 223,759.

Forwards: LeBron James (Clev) 2,549,693; Kevin Garnett (Bos) 1,978,116; Chris Bosh (Tor) 1,164,007; Paul Pierce (Bos) 525,677; Josh Smith (Atl) 475,671; Andre Iguodala (Phi) 313,827; Danny Granger (Ind) 309,808; Rashard Lewis (Orl) 302,743; Michael Beasley (Mia) 277,400; Hedo Turkoglu (Tor) 213,369.

Centers: Dwight Howard (Orl) 2,360,096; Shaquille O'Neal (Cle) 856,056; Al Horford (Atl) 270,532; Andrea Bargnani (Tor) 265,024; Brook Lopez (NJ) 223,246; Andrew Bogut (Mil) 202,072; Jermaine O'Neal (Mia) 159,327; Rasheed Wallace (Bos) 131,084; Brad Miller (Chi) 102,994; Kendrick Perkins (Bos) 90,278.

~lw3

[lethalweapon3]

Here is the 13 page thread i was talking about. I am tontoz over at ISH.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=161961

Just randomly going through the post, it looks like a select few guys (New Yawkers mostly?) pulling for Lee, but not a whole lotta love there either (lol at the Kaman pic, though). And again, not much substantive data presented to show a reason not to pick Horford. I think I found 2 Bogut mentions in the thread so far.

So to recap:

Smoove got snubbed by KG due to Larry O'Brien Trophy passes

Smoove got snubbed by Horf due to position needs

Old-School "4th Options" (like Wennington and Scott Williams) had Ewing and Zo and Deke to get past that Horf did not

Bogut and Lee and Brook and (insert losing-team Center here) got snubbed by Horf due to winning, defense, and media-market-indifference

Smoove and Bogut got snubbed by Lee due to media-market pity

Bogut got the attention he deserved once the Bucks got around to playing winning basketball

~lw3

[exodus]

Here is a thread where the All-Stars were announced. Multiple quotes on only 3 pages

I'm pretty pissed off about that. Lee and Bogut deserve it over Horford.

your list seems pretty good, would also rather have had Bogut than Horford in the all star game,

Al Horford an all-star? c'mon complete joke.

Undeserving: Allen Iverson, Kevin Garnett, Pau Gasol, Al Horford.

Horford is the Jamal Magloire of this year's All-Star Game.

East is really weak at C. Smith plays F, Horford plays C. Why is everyone so shocked? Although Lee over Horford was a given.

Al Horford making it is a joke. Dude's putting up the same numbers as Jamaal Magloire in 04, yet where's the hate??

Horford making it?! Woah. I just noticed that

**** you Horford.

And Al Harford? Really? For real? He is a roleplayer.

Al Horford in an ASG is pointless

Al Horford? Hes good, but Bogut deserves it alot more then him.

david lee over horford

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=161918&page=15

[lethalweapon3]

Any general NBA board (insidehoops.com, realgm) expressed widespread surprise and Horford being in the All-Star team. It wasn't a secret. Just because you don't follow general NBA boards doesn't mean there wasn't any surprise regarding Horfords selection and boguts ommission.

This from ESPN.

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/12677/who-you-wont-see-in-dallas

As you probably saw, I beat ya by just a few minutes with that link. And, as I noted, "just as easily could have been..." does not come across as "OMG are you kidding me?" Perhaps we've all got Omar Infante on the brain.

And yes Boguts 149 points compared to 19 points for Horford in the All-NBA selection was a complete trouncing. Twenty four games where Bogut didn't play his best basketball is not enough to make that much of a difference.

I'll accept that argument, but again, All-NBA selections reflect the full season, and obviously Bogut and his surging Bucks did more to bring attention to his game post All-Star Break with his 24 games than Horf and the no-longer-anywhere-near-first-place Hawks could do with his six additional. Do it in January and you get the "edge" for the All-Star Game. Do it after that and you can "trounce" the likes of Horford and Lee for the All-NBA squad. Maybe we should simply move the All-Star Break to the end of the regular season so all our revisionist arguments won't be necessary.

~lw3

[exodus]

Here is a thread where the All-Stars were announced. Multiple quotes on only 3 pages

"I'm pretty pissed off about that. Lee and Bogut deserve it over Horford.

your list seems pretty good, would also rather have had Bogut than Horford in the all star game,

Al Horford an all-star? c'mon complete joke.

Undeserving: Allen Iverson, Kevin Garnett, Pau Gasol, Al Horford.

Horford is the Jamal Magloire of this year's All-Star Game.

East is really weak at C. Smith plays F, Horford plays C. Why is everyone so shocked? Although Lee over Horford was a given.

Al Horford making it is a joke. Dude's putting up the same numbers as Jamaal Magloire in 04, yet where's the hate??

Horford making it?! Woah. I just noticed that

**** you Horford.

And Al Harford? Really? For real? He is a roleplayer.

Al Horford in an ASG is pointless

Al Horford? Hes good, but Bogut deserves it alot more then him.

david lee over horford"

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=161918&page=15

*crickets*

Edited August 6, 2010 by exodus

[lethalweapon3]

I'm pretty pissed off about that. Lee and Bogut deserve it over Horford.

your list seems pretty good, would also rather have had Bogut than Horford in the all star game,

Al Horford an all-star? c'mon complete joke.

Undeserving: Allen Iverson, Kevin Garnett, Pau Gasol, Al Horford.

Horford is the Jamal Magloire of this year's All-Star Game.

East is really weak at C. Smith plays F, Horford plays C. Why is everyone so shocked? Although Lee over Horford was a given.

Al Horford making it is a joke. Dude's putting up the same numbers as Jamaal Magloire in 04, yet where's the hate??

Horford making it?! Woah. I just noticed that

**** you Horford.

And Al Harford? Really? For real? He is a roleplayer.

Al Horford in an ASG is pointless

Al Horford? Hes good, but Bogut deserves it alot more then him.

david lee over horford

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=161918&page=15

Yep, that's the handful of posts on one hoops forum that I was looking at. Not apparently the same outrage outside of that. And again, no substantive data to support their outrage. Crickets, indeed!

~lw3

Edited August 6, 2010 by lethalweapon3

[exodus]

And a look at the fan results showed fans didn't have much love for Bogut at the time, either

Horford got only 34% more votes than Bogut in spite of the fact that the Hawks had a much better record and bogut plays on a small market team. Horford made playoff appearances the last two years and had multiple nationally televised games this past season. He had far more visibility than Bogut.

That is hardly supportive of your argument.

[lethalweapon3]

^ And thank you for taking time to defend against that faux outrage, by the way! Looks like you were not alone at the time, either.

~lw3

Horford got only 34% more votes than Bogut in spite of the fact that the Hawks had a much better record and bogut plays on a small market team. Horford made playoff appearances the last two years and had multiple nationally televised games this past season. He had far more visibility than Bogut.

That is hardly supportive of your argument.

34%? For every three votes, Horf gets more than four? That's trouncing! lol

Hey at least Bogie beat out David Lee (was he even on the ballot? what was up with that?)

~lw3

[exodus]

Yep, that's the handful of posts on one hoops forum that I was looking at. Not apparently the same outrage outside of that. And again, no substantive data to support their outrage. Crickets, indeed!

~lw3

LOL. First it was "There was no bellyaching outside of the Land of Cheddar for Bogut in the All-Star Game. " Well these posts were from a general NBA board where Horford's selection was trashed more than anyone's selection on either team.

And what "substantive data" are you looking for? Bogut had more points, rebounds and blocks but apparently they all take a backseat to team wins.

^ And thank you for taking time to defend against that faux outrage, by the way! Looks like you were not alone at the time, either.

~lw3

34%? For every three votes, Horf gets more than four? That's trouncing! lol

Hey at least Bogie beat out David Lee (was he even on the ballot? what was up with that?)

~lw3

Obviusly math isn't your strong suit. Bogut got 784% more All-NBA votes than Horford. That is a trouncing. A 34% edge to a player with far higher visibility on a better team isn't anything to brag about.

[lethalweapon3]

You also make an important point, ex. If Bogut wants to get exposure he needs to be on winning teams (and preferably playoff teams), especially in his market. Again, why are we fussing over Horf vs Bogut when the argument should have been Bogut vs New York's Lee?

Buried on a team that historically gets no attention when it's worthy, Horford would get the same shaft IF he wasn't in playoffs the last two years AND IF it wasn't looking like his team was going to get there this year either. The Hawks just started getting significant primetime TV slots last year, making the question of multiple players coming from the first-place Hawks that much easier a decision to make.

~lw3

[exodus]

You also make an important point, ex. If Bogut wants to get exposure he needs to be on winning teams (and preferably playoff teams), especially in his market. Again, why are we fussing over Horf vs Bogut when the argument should have been Bogut vs New York's Lee?

Buried on a team that historically gets no attention when it's worthy, Horford would get the same shaft IF he wasn't in playoffs the last two years AND IF it wasn't looking like his team was going to get there this year either. The Hawks just started getting significant primetime TV slots last year, making the question of multiple players coming from the first-place Hawks that much easier a decision to make.

~lw3

And in spite of Horford's increased visibility (two playoff appearances and multiple nat tv games during the season) he still only got 34% more votes than a center from a losing team in a small market. That should be self explanatory.

[lethalweapon3]

LOL. First it was "There was no bellyaching outside of the Land of Cheddar for Bogut in the All-Star Game. " Well these posts were from a general NBA board where Horford's selection was trashed more than anyone's selection on either team.

And what "substantive data" are you looking for? Bogut had more points, rebounds and blocks but apparently they all take a backseat to team wins.

Obviusly math isn't your strong suit. Bogut got 784% more All-NBA votes than Horford. That is a trouncing. A 34% edge to a player with far higher visibility on a better team isn't anything to brag about.

Which would be true... if the voting procedure was different. Your fan vote counts as one vote. The exec votes count for fives and threes when it's All-NBA time. Take those thousands of additional All-Star votes Al got and make them count for 200% and 400% more and you'll see we're looking at the same trouncing. I trust neither player is wasting precious time bragging, though.

And in spite of Horford's increased visibility (two playoff appearances and multiple nat tv games during the season) he still only got 34% more votes than a center from a losing team in a small market. That should be self explanatory.

And infinitely more than a center on a losing team in the largest market. Indeed, first-place winning basketball is self explanatory. At least in the eyes of the casual fan. And apparently the GMs and coaches, too.

~lw3

[lethalweapon3]

Once more, with feeling:

Smoove got snubbed by KG due to Larry O'Brien Trophy passes

Smoove got snubbed by Horf due to position needs

Old-School "4th Options" (like Wennington and Scott Williams) had Ewing and Zo and Deke to get past that Horf did not

Bogut and Lee and Brook and (insert losing-team Center here) got snubbed by Horf due to winning, defense, and media-market-indifference

Smoove and Bogut got snubbed by Lee due to media-market pity

Bogut got the attention he deserved once the Bucks got around to playing winning basketball

~lw3

[exodus]

Which would be true... if the voting procedure was different. Your fan vote counts as one vote. The exec votes count for fives and threes when it's All-NBA time. Take those thousands of additional All-Star votes Al got and make them count for 200% and 400% more and you'll see we're looking at the same trouncing. I trust neither player is wasting precious time bragging, though.

And infinitely more than a center on a losing team in the largest market. Indeed, first-place winning basketball is self explanatory. At least in the eyes of the casual fan. And apparently the GMs and coaches, too.

~lw3

Again your math is off. It isn't like the people voting for Horford counted for only 1 vote while the people voting for Bogut counted for 5 or 3. They both were in the same voting system and both got the benefit of it. It isn't like Horford was under a different voting system.

The eyes of casual fans saw Horford as the most controversial pick in this years All-Star game. No other player generated anywere near the disent that the Horford pick did. There was a thread on RealGM about the worst All-Star selections of all time and Horford got several mentions.

Once more, with feeling:

Smoove got snubbed by KG due to Larry O'Brien Trophy passes

Smoove got snubbed by Horf due to position needs

Old-School "4th Options" (like Wennington and Scott Williams) had Ewing and Zo and Deke to get past that Horf did not

Bogut and Lee and Brook and (insert losing-team Center here) got snubbed by Horf due to winning, defense, and media-market-indifference

Smoove and Bogut got snubbed by Lee due to media-market pity

Bogut got the attention he deserved once the Bucks got around to playing winning basketball

~lw3

Stop pretending like Horford has an advantage over Bogut defensively. Bogut was the defensive anchor of a much better defensive team than the Hawks.