Is Smoove Regressing under Drew?

[lethalweapon3]

I don't get where this is coming from. There has never been any evidence to suggest that is going to happen. You might as well say that Teague will win the 3 point shootout one day.

The accurate comparison is where Teague becomes the blazing fast PG who can make a layup in traffic. We can worry about 3-point shootouts later, let's at least help him compete for H.O.R.S.E.!

~lw3

[exodus]

The accurate comparison is where Teague becomes the blazing fast PG who can make a layup in traffic. We can worry about 3-point shootouts later, let's at least help him compete for H.O.R.S.E.!

~lw3

That is not a accurate comparison. We already know Teague is a fast pg who can break down the defense and he does actually finish sometimes. But smith has never shown the slightest inclination to stop shooting jumpers no matter how many houses he has built on the rim.

[lethalweapon3]

Artest's bad shot selection is more than a few games issue. His TS% numbers the last five years are .491, .538, .535, .512 and .514. Smith's over the same time are ..500, 506, .520, .533, .536. Smith has been better 3 of the 5 seasons and overall. Ron has shot a ton more than Smith over that time despite the fact that his efficiency is not very good so the same fundamental issue is there, IMO. He takes bad shots and does it over and over. At least Smith's numbers are trending in the right direction...

And as with Smoove, Ronnie's apologists (in Sacramento, Houston, now LA) also point to the other things he does on one end of the floor (shutdown defender, blah blah) that compensates for his periodic errors on the other. As with Smoove, Artest loves to think he's wide open for jumpers without wondering why.

However, where the comparison really ends is, no one has been transitioning Artest to become a vintage Elton Brand with extra hops. As a 3, perimeter shooting must remain in Artest's limited offensive repertoire until he retires. Not the case with Smoove.

~lw3

[lethalweapon3]

That is not a accurate comparison. We already know Teague is a fast pg who can break down the defense and he does actually finish sometimes. But smith has never shown the slightest inclination to stop shooting jumpers no matter how many houses he has built on the rim.

We have been repeatedly agreeing on that very point (last season pre-playoffs notwithstanding), departing solely on whether the effort to change that is a lost cause or a work-in-progress (regress?).

The bad shots will continue for at least the near future, whether we like it or not. I propose we continue to tear our hair out for pages and pages tilting at windmills for accurate comparisons in the meantime. Darn it, where did I put my Rogaine?

~lw3

[exodus]

And as with Smoove, Ronnie's apologists (in Sacramento, Houston, now LA) also point to the other things he does on one end of the floor (shutdown defender, blah blah) that compensates for his periodic errors on the other. As with Smoove, Artest loves to think he's wide open for jumpers without wondering why.

However, where the comparison really ends is, no one has been transitioning Artest to become a vintage Elton Brand with extra hops. As a 3, perimeter shooting must remain in Artest's limited offensive repertoire until he retires. Not the case with Smoove.

~lw3

Artest shot 19% better on jumpers than Smith. Artest doesn't need any apologists. He is a competent perimeter shooter and a lousy inside scorer. Marvin is a better inside scorer than Artest. By far.

[lethalweapon3]

Artest shot 19% better on jumpers than Smith. Artest doesn't need any apologists. He is a competent perimeter shooter and a lousy inside scorer. Marvin is a better inside scorer than Artest. By far.

What's 19 plus 10? lol

~lw3

[exodus]

What's 19 plus 10? lol

~lw3

Artest shot only 1% worse than our $120 million dollar man on jumpers. He is a legit threat from the perimeter. Smith isn't a threat to anyone from the perimeter.....except maybe Jerry West.

[lethalweapon3]

Last night was great and things went really well...however one game does not determine how the season goes. Lets not overreact to it.

If we lost last night the board would be reacting the opposite about how the motion offense does not work and calling for the heads of players who did not play well or for LD to be fired.

We need to play a number of games before you can really guage how the team is doing or how the season may go. One game is not going to say that Marvin is now a star, Joe is taking it to the next level, Josh can't play in the system or Crawford is not fitting in this year.

Its an 82 game season and we still have 81 to go.

Hear. Hear.

~lw3

[lethalweapon3]

Artest shot 19% better on jumpers than Smith. Artest doesn't need any apologists. He is a competent perimeter shooter and a lousy inside scorer. Marvin is a better inside scorer than Artest. By far.

And yet Ron continues to go inside for his offense! After all these years! Such a dumbass! Gosh, if he never learns, his teams will never win a title. Oh, wait...

~lw3

[exodus]

And yet Ron continues to go inside for his offense! After all these years! Such a dumbass! Gosh, if he never learns, his teams will never win a title. Oh, wait...

~lw3

No he doesn't. Marvin not only outscored Artest inside but shot 12% better on his inside attempts. Artest is not a good, or frequent, inside scorer. They have plenty of other guys on that team who score inside.

Almost 40% of Artests shot attempts were 3 pointers.

[AHF]

That is not even remotely a legit comparison. Artest is a gravity bound perimeter player that gets only a fraction of the easy inside baskets that Smith gets. Last year Artest had a EFG of 47% on jumpers. For comparison JJ's was 48% and Smith's was 28.5%. Artest's EFG on inside shots is only 4% better than his EFG from the outside. On the other hand Smiths EFG is 35% better on the inside.

Artest simply isn't capable of scoring inside the way Smith does because he isn't as tall and doesn't jump well. Trying to paint Artest with the same brush as Smith regarding shot selection is flat out wrong.

Artest has always had bad shot selection. They are different players and I wasn't trying to make the point that they are the same player or that Artest is as poor a perimeter player as Josh (he clearly isn't). My point was that Artest's bad shot selection has been a persistent issue, he continues to take too many shots and too many bad ones based on his efficiency on those shots, and his efficiency is actually moving in the wrong direction. In the sense that Artest has never been a good decision-maker on shot selection, there is similarity there.

[Atlantaholic]

Artest has always had bad shot selection. They are different players and I wasn't trying to make the point that they are the same player or that Artest is as poor a perimeter player as Josh (he clearly isn't). My point was that Artest's bad shot selection has been a persistent issue, he continues to take too many shots and too many bad ones based on his efficiency on those shots, and his efficiency is actually moving in the wrong direction. In the sense that Artest has never been a good decision-maker on shot selection, there is similarity there.

Artest's shot selection is indeed abysmal. Admittedly I didn't watch him very often on the Lakers last year, but in Houston the guy took some of the most putrid, disgusting shots I've ever seen. Josh Smith's shot selection is actually probably better than Artest's as you won't see josh take many contested jump shots early in the shot clock with a defender right on him a la Artest.

[exodus]

Artest has always had bad shot selection. They are different players and I wasn't trying to make the point that they are the same player or that Artest is as poor a perimeter player as Josh (he clearly isn't). My point was that Artest's bad shot selection has been a persistent issue, he continues to take too many shots and too many bad ones based on his efficiency on those shots, and his efficiency is actually moving in the wrong direction. In the sense that Artest has never been a good decision-maker on shot selection, there is similarity there.

That is like comparing Bibby to Mugsy Bogues in terms of height. Both are short but they aren't really comparable.

Artest shoots 19% better from Smith from the outside and 12% worse from the inside. It only makes sense for him to be taking more outside shots. If he gave up a few outiside shots and replaced them with inside shots there is no evidence that it would increase his efficiency.

If Artests shot selection is so bad then why was his EFG on jumpers only 1% less than JJ's? Artest has legit reasons to be shooting perimeter shots. Smith doesn't. Artest can actually make them and he is a poor inside scorer.

Edited October 31, 2010 by exodus

[JackB1]

Once again in last nights game...Smoove decides he's going to take a long jumper at the most inopportune time. Thats 3 games now and he's

continued to take long jumpers and 3's. You can't make that "it's only preseason" argument anymore. All is great now that we are winning, but

Drew is going to have to do something to get Smith to realize he needs to remove long jumpers from his game.

[AHF]

That is like comparing Bibby to Mugsy Bogues in terms of height. Both are short but they aren't really comparable.

Artest shoots 19% better from Smith from the outside and 12% worse from the inside. It only makes sense for him to be taking more outside shots. If he gave up a few outiside shots and replaced them with inside shots there is no evidence that it would increase his efficiency.

If Artests shot selection is so bad then why was his EFG on jumpers only 1% less than JJ's? Artest has legit reasons to be shooting perimeter shots. Smith doesn't. Artest can actually make them and he is a poor inside scorer.

I disagree. Skill set is irrelevant for the comparison. You could have the offensive skills of Reggie Miller or Dale Davis and be perfect for the comparison as long as you repeatedly and persistently take bad shots. The comparison is two players who over the years have exercised poor shot selection.

If you are arguing that Artest actually exercises good shot selection then that is a good reason not to compare the two but their disparate skills as jump shooter are irrelevant to the comparison as long as we agree that both have repeatedly taken bad shots over the years, IMO.

[exodus]

I disagree. Skill set is irrelevant for the comparison. You could have the offensive skills of Reggie Miller or Dale Davis and be perfect for the comparison as long as you repeatedly and persistently take bad shots. The comparison is two players who over the years have exercised poor shot selection.

If you are arguing that Artest actually exercises good shot selection then that is a good reason not to compare the two but their disparate skills as jump shooter are irrelevant to the comparison as long as we agree that both have repeatedly taken bad shots over the years, IMO.

The problem is that you have not shown any evidence that Artest is taking bad shots. TS% is not a measure of shot selection. The major reason Artest's TS% suffers is that he is a lousy inside scorer. He shot 51.4% on his inside shot attempts which is worse than anyone in the Hawks rotation. He was even worse the previous year in Houston.

Meanwhile his EFG on jumpers has been 47% for the last two years. That is better than Marvin's career best of 45% EFG and Marvin is taking mostly wide open catch and shoot attempts. If Artest is taking so many ill advised jumpers than why is his EFG on jumpers relatively high?

Artest right now is more like the opposit of Smith. Smith can't shoot a lick and is an effective inside scorer. Neither is true of Artest.

[Joker]

The problem is that you have not shown any evidence that Artest is taking bad shots. TS% is not a measure of shot selection. The major reason Artest's TS% suffers is that he is a lousy inside scorer. He shot 51.4% on his inside shot attempts which is worse than anyone in the Hawks rotation. He was even worse the previous year in Houston.

Meanwhile his EFG on jumpers has been 47% for the last two years. That is better than Marvin's career best of 45% EFG and Marvin is taking mostly wide open catch and shoot attempts. If Artest is taking so many ill advised jumpers than why is his EFG on jumpers relatively high?

Artest right now is more like the opposit of Smith. Smith can't shoot a lick and is an effective inside scorer. Neither is true of Artest.

+1

[AHF]

Evidence that Ron might have trouble with his shots selection:

Ron Artest shoots his way to infamy

By Kelly Dwyer - Yahoo Sports

It was almost comical, this stereotype gone mad. One of the worst shooting exhibitions I've seen, at this level, in a long time. Tossing out the "in a long time" qualifier, by the way, because I can't think of anything worse than it right now, and I'm hoping I'm wrong. I'm hoping there was something worse than this. There probably wasn't.

Ron Artest(notes) shot 1-for-10 in Game 2, scoring six points, turning the ball over three times and fouling out in the process. It wasn't just that he shot miserably in a game that should have been a notch in his belt (holding Paul Pierce(notes) on the other end to 2-of-11 shooting), but it was the way he put up those 10 shots. Terrible looks, mostly uncalled-for, seriously team-crippling.

....

Save for three of the 10 shots, all were tossed up on broken plays of Ron's creation, with double figures on the shot clock. A couple were with more than 20 seconds left on the shot clock. One came after Ron decided to try and cross Glen Davis(notes) over, moving left, and pulling up for a 3-pointer with 20 seconds on the shot clock. In the fourth quarter, no less.

Ron Artest: The Artest of Redemption

By Hayden Kim - Bleacher Report

We all question Ron Artest's thought process.

Why did he take that shot?

....

What frustrates Phil and most Lakers fans is not his lack of knowledge about the very confusing Triangle Offense, but his poor shot selection.

The Ten Best Bad Shot Makers in the NBA

by Andrew Katz - Dime Magazine

10. Tracy McGrady

Five years ago, T-Mac might have been No. 1 on this list. But now Ron Artest takes more bad shots than he does on the Rockets. At least when Tracy is in the game to take them, he still makes them.

Dan Wetzel - Yahoo Sports

Of course, Artest was going to take the dumbest shot at the most important moment of the season. And, of course he was going to shrug it off postgame and say, ”nobody’s perfect.”

He’s maddening.

Henry Abbot - True Hoops

About every ten minutes Ron Artest is in an NBA game, he hoists a 3-pointer, and it's seldom a good idea. This has been going on for a decade.

If you were a high school coach, wanting to teach your players about shot selection, these 2,690 attempts would be riddled with examples of what not to do.

It's not that he's a terrible shooter. It's that he often chooses to take terrible shots.

A 3 is a difficult enough shot that, unless you're truly special, you should only shoot them when the conditions are just right -- when you're open, for instance, and when you're catching a good pass with balance and rhythm. Ideally, you'd also be in the corner, where the 3-point line is closer to the rim.

Artest doesn't really seem to believe any of that, and as a result his career average is 34%. (He points out that he was, at one time, a 40% 3-point shooter, which is technically true. He was a percentage point shy of that last season in Houston. The only time he beat that mark was the season he was suspended after seven games and took only 17 3s, making seven.)

When Artest played for the Rockets, G.M. Daryl Morey asked Shane Battier for advice in controlling Artest's shot selection, and Battier essentially advised that Morey that it was impossible, saying "you can't cage a pit bull."

The thing that bugs basketball people is that Artest could make a much higher percentage. So many of his attempts are compromised. Maybe he has a hand in his face. Or perhaps he's coming off the dribble, leaning to one side or doesn't have his feet set correctly.

There are just a hundred reasons to criticize the guy's shot selection throughout his career. There have been some dreadful leaners, on the run, with a hand in his face. There have been 36-footers with open teammates wholly unnoticed. He has ignored his own coach's plays, and befuddled teammates, to shoot wild 3s.

Shira Springer - The Boston Globe

the home crowd nearly booed Artest off the court for horrendous shot selection

Edited November 1, 2010 by AHF

[AHF]

Mike Trudell - NBA.com

That’s a lot of things. So if the NBA were a rock band, Artest could sing, play lead (and rhythm) guitar, bang the drums, stroke the piano and … you get the point. He’s not without weaknesses (namely shot selection, and we’ll get to that), but he can hoop to the point that scouting reports disregard him at a team’s peril.

Phillips - Rumors & Rants

While we can all enjoy a good laugh over Ron Artest’s awful shot selection, his goofy antics and impeccable interview etiquette but now is the time things will get very serious for Ron Ron.

Howard Beck - New York Times

Artest is a fantastic defender and occasionally a decent 3-point shooter, but his shot selection is suspect

Tom Ziller - Sacramento Royalty

"He makes extraordinarily odd decisions on offense. Repeatedly."

Fantasy Basketball - USA Today

Artest played pretty well in the preseason, but we are still not big fans from a fantasy perspective. His shot selection and field goal percentage are always a concern

Matt Moore - Fanhouse

Artest is admitting to being under the influence of alcohol, no matter how small, during an NBA game he was playing in.

...

Of course, after this, seeing his shot selection doesn't seem so baffling anymore.

This even goes back to college. He is a quote from 1999 article discussing Artest:

Lisa Olsen - Daily News

He talked about "playing cool," words that were the antithesis of how he performed against UConn in the Big East final. Poor shot selection, sticky fingers, giant mental lapses Artest did everything but trip over his own shoelaces.

Do I need to go on? Really no evidence of him having problems with shot selection? Really?

How can anyone follow the NBA as closely as you do and not be aware that everywhere Artest has played the team's fans and management have all complained about Ron Artest's shot selection?

[thecampster]

I realize I'm a little biased as a Josh Smith fan but I'm having a hard time with all the hub bub. currently Josh and Joe are shooting the exact same percentage (44.9 and 44.8). Joe is taking 6.6 more shots a game.

Smith is missing 5.4 shots a game....Joe is missing 9. Josh is shooting 1 3pointer a game. Joe is shooting 4.3 and averaging 30.8%.

I am in no way saying Josh should shoot from the outside more or Joe less, but I'm just not seeing the case for all the drama. The context of Josh really shouldn't be shooting based on percentages is technically accurate. But there sure seems to have been a great deal of space in this thread alone discussing what is a point or two a game. I guess I see it as throwing a guy a bone for all the steals, blocks, rebounds. If it keeps his head in the game to let him fire up one or two and the percentages show it costs us 1 or 2 points a game on the offensive end but gets us Great Josh on the defensive end, I'm willing to make that sacrifice.

Psychology is a big deal in the NBA. These are massive egos we're dealing with.