Marketing 101: Attendance

[Joker]

Who took a leak in your Wheaties this morning?

Anyone who reads this forum should know that spotatl is not "dense" or "ignorant" when it comes to the business side of the NBA. He's shown me up a few times, and I have a background in corporate finance. He was making legitimate points, particularly since cross-elasticity of demand within the sports and entertainment industries is the subject of constant research and debate both in academic circles and in boardrooms. This isn't like mathematics or even legal issues, where you can simply look up the answer by taking a class or writing a book. It's not even something preeminent economic minds agree on. It's certainly something that reasonable minds can disagree on a fan forum. So I think you crossed the line more than a bit in your responses.

I've done the same thing on occasion, I'll grant. I've made it an early New Year's resolution to cut back on that. Stay classy.

I try to stay out out of personal arguments that don't involved me but I agree about spotatl. He does know what he is talking about generally speaking.

[spotatl]

Laughable. a 1% increase. Pick your difference on whatever tickets you like. Lets hear where you think the people STAYING AWAY are instead of just going to a cheaper ticket.

Edited December 1, 2010 by spotatl

[Joker]

Officially the worst in the NBA as of today and the only team below 80% overall. 27th in terms of home attendance. 24th in terms of away attendance.

NBA attendance 12/4/10

Edited December 4, 2010 by nbasuperstar40

[AHF]

Wow, you really have a rough time with math don't you? Can you even comprehend what a weighted average means? I'm done with this, you're an ignorant mule that can't understand economics one lick.

Address the post and not the poster. You can make your point without attacking the poster personally and everyone needs to do that on the Squawk.

[coachx]

Address the post and not the poster. You can make your point without attacking the poster personally and everyone needs to do that on the Squawk.

But its so hard with all the moronic POST on here. Hawksfanatic is one of the most knowledgeable guys in here and has been for years.

I hate to chase him off and be left with more then enough "lesser POST" in the name of PC.

Edited December 4, 2010 by coachx

[lethalweapon3]

Just wanna try a different tack, with a question for the Hawksquawkers.

What benefits (tangible or otherwise) do you feel you gain from going to Philips and seeing the Hawks live, instead of, say, watching the games on TV from the comfort of your living room/den, or at a bar?

Never mind the usual fusses (traffic, prices, downtown atmosphere, blah, blah). I would just like to see what the positive side of the ledger looks like.

~lw3

[AHF]

But its so hard with all the moronic POST on here. Hawksfanatic is one of the most knowledgeable guys in here and has been for years.

I hate to chase him off and be left with more then enough "lesser POST" in the name of PC.

Nobody is chasing hawksfanatic off. You can rip apart a moronic post without going after the person personally and if the post is more reasonable that is all the more reason not to go after the poster personally.

Edited December 5, 2010 by AHF

[Dejay]

6. The NBA doesn't try to market the individuals but the individuals are so dominate, that naturally, you are a fan of those teams since they have a much better chance at winning than a team without a superstar. This isn't a blue collar town like Detroit. We need a superstar in Atlanta. No one in Atlanta gets national buzz. We lose, no one cares. We win, no one believes we are for real. Then when it's proving time, we prove them right. Once again, this is an entertainment town. Ppl go to games just to have their face shown. The more glamorous, the more faces. You have to understand the fan-base to understand what's needed. In order to win in this league, you need a superstar or a complete team. A complete team will not get you a title today as the league has more superstars than it had in the 90's and those superstars teams are very good or great. It's tough but Atlanta really isn't close with their current roster and everyone knows that.

I couldn't agree more.

How long have I been preaching this sermon? Ten, fifteen years now? With Detroit being the lone exception, how many teams have we seen over the last 30 years that went to the Finals, let alone won it all, without a HOF-caliber player and/or superstar? Folks here are many things but they're not ignorant or dumb. The fact that they don't have a Lebron/Kobe/Durant/Carmelo/CP3-like player on the roster (and hasn't since Nique was doing tomahawk dunks in the old Omni) already paints a picture of them being good enough to make the playoffs and nothing more which won't attract the many transients who stayed loyal to their hometown allegiences and the locals who know better because they've seen this script played out before (15 straight second-round losses with the last 11 by double-digits dating back to 1997).

There's a trust factor with this franchise that is totally lacking; that no matter how good a draft pick they get or how much under the cap they are, they will never, EVER, EVER attract and/or bring in the superstar-caliber player who can change the franchise from okay to great. BK's horrific draft picks (save for Smith and Horford) proved those fans right in that assessment. What did this team really get in the draft from all those years of losing? So they can win the next ten games in a row and few outside of the folks on this forum, RealGM, or Peachtree Hoops will care because the first thing that'll be brought up is 'huh, well let's see what they do in May', only for an undermanned Milwaukee team to take them to seven games, and a record-breaking series sweep by Orlando to prove them right (again).

This team doesn't have a superstar-level player in a town that demands it, hasn't won anything of consequence in a town that demands it (just ask the Chipper Jones how it felt to play in front of 12,000 empty seats come playoff time when first-round knockouts became the rule. BTW, would Bobby Cox had been given the leeway to call his shot of retiring in NYC, Boston or Philly with that sub-.500 playoff record of his or would he had been fired over a decade ago? Just food for thought). Yet and still, we're talking about why the fans don't show up? Is there any real reason why they should when the team continues to striptease the fanbase year after year?

Edited December 5, 2010 by Dejay

[spotatl]

I'm still a little surprised that the team didn't sign Iverson after he left the Pistons. Even when he was washed up I think he would still have been a big draw here.

[niremetal]

I'm still a little surprised that the team didn't sign Iverson after he left the Pistons. Even when he was washed up I think he would still have been a big draw here.

If they wanted a big draw, they could have signed Shaq. Iverson is the NBA's biggest locker room wrecking ball since JR Rider. Signing him would have been a death sentence for the season.

[spotatl]

I was talking about 2 seasons ago when Iverson left the pistons and the Hawks had Bibby as a free agent. I said I was surprised that the team didn't sign him, not that I think it would have been a good move.

I do think if the hawks could have brought in Shaq without paying the luxury tax they probably would have done it. But I think Shaq would have only come in if the Hawks gave him the full MLE and that would have cost the ASG at least 10 million dollars ocne you take the luxury tax into account. I can understand why they didn't think Shaq was worth it.

[lethalweapon3]

Just wanna try a different tack, with a question for the Hawksquawkers.

What benefits (tangible or otherwise) do you feel you gain from going to Philips and seeing the Hawks live, instead of, say, watching the games on TV from the comfort of your living room/den, or at a bar?

Never mind the usual fusses (traffic, prices, downtown atmosphere, blah, blah). I would just like to see what the positive side of the ledger looks like.

~lw3

chirp! chirp! chirp! chirp! chirp! chirp! chirp! chirp! chirp! chirp! chirp! chirp! chirp! chirp! chirp! chirp! chirp! chirp! chirp! chirp! chirp! chirp! chirp! chirp! chirp! chirp! chirp! chirp! chirp! chirp! chirp! chirp! chirp!

[/crickets]

~lw3

[Chickenstanley]

Just my take...

1. I personally think that the SCREAMING the announcer is unbearable.

2. I personally think the constant BLASTING of music at extreme decibels is ridiculous and obnoxious.

3. They only open two damn doors and you have to stand in a huge line just to get in place! And to make matters worse, the don't open the doors until 1 hour before game time. NO WONDER EVERYBODY SHOWS UP LATE. THEY ARE ALL OUTSIDE STANDING IN LINE A F***ING WAITING TO GET IN.

4. I don't care to be constantly getting up to let drunks out/in to get ANOTHER (extremely overpriced) drink.

5. I don't care to miss numerous plays because the damn beer guy is often standing in my line of sight.

6. The seats have no leg room for a person who is over 6 feet tall.

7. There are usually at least 5000 girls in the stands that look much better than the cheerleaders. Mostly look like prostitutes to me!

8. The mascots and other drivel that are designed for entertainment are plain silly and always accompanied with more SCREAMING over the PA system.

Someone please tell me --- what the hell is enjoyable about such an experience? As opposed to kicking back at home in my recliner with a $.50 cent Martini after supper and watching the game on TV? With my $100-$200 still in my pocket!

If it weren't for my wife enjoying attending when we are in town --- they couldn't pay me equal money to endure all that ___ to attend a game.

CS

[Guest]

chirp! chirp! chirp! chirp! chirp! chirp! chirp! chirp! chirp! chirp! chirp! chirp! chirp! chirp! chirp! chirp! chirp! chirp! chirp! chirp! chirp! chirp! chirp! chirp! chirp! chirp! chirp! chirp! chirp! chirp! chirp! chirp! chirp!

[/crickets]

~lw3

What?!? Why would you ever ask such a stupid question? Clearly this is a problem with the fans and nothing else, alternative options and prices don't matter here. Move along, this problem has been solved by the great minds of this thread and your previous question is just a waste of space. Next we will discuss the merits of being a great fan versus the greatest fan.

[coachx]

3. They only open two damn doors and you have to stand in a huge line just to get in place! And to make matters worse, the don't open the doors until 1 hour before game time. NO WONDER EVERYBODY SHOWS UP LATE. THEY ARE ALL OUTSIDE STANDING IN LINE A F***ING WAITING TO GET IN.

CS

It sounds like you just need to learn your way around Phillips Arena better.

There may be only 2 doors open at the "main entrance."

There is a seperate entrance from the "Gulch" and the lower level of the parking deck across the street.

There are at least 4 doors open in the CNN Center.

There are also doors to Phillips on the other side of the building too that bring you in on the opposite side of the main concourse then the main entrance does. I have never seen a line there unless its a playoff game.

The rest of your complaints seem to be common things associated with all major sports games in general:

1. High food and beverage prices

2. PA announcers

3. Music

4. Cheerleaders who's routines favor strippers (even college teams are getting "dance squads" (seperate from cheerleaders) that do this.

5. Typical game time entertainment. ( What do you expect ? A Vegas quality show for halftime ?)

Some people are fans of live games. Others are not.

To me football is much better live then on TV. For one you only see the QB on TV and have no idea if WRs are open or covered. You don't know if the QB is missing open recievers or holding the ball too long. Basketball is much more TV friendly b/c you can virtually see half the playing court in one screen shot. In football you often times only see 10% of the playing surface when the QB is making the critical decisions. That is why I enjoy LIVE football over live basketball. However, I truely enjoy both.

[Guest]

It sounds like you just need to learn your way around Phillips Arena better.

There may be only 2 doors open at the "main entrance."

There is a seperate entrance from the "Gulch" and the lower level of the parking deck across the street.

There are at least 4 doors open in the CNN Center.

There are also doors to Phillips on the other side of the building too that bring you in on the opposite side of the main concourse then the main entrance does. I have never seen a line there unless its a playoff game.

You seem to be missing at least one entrance. I am assuming the "main entrance" is the one next to the box office which I believe is also called the Techwood Entrance (there should be at least 3 doors there, maybe even 4). Then if you go down to the left of the box office is the Marta entrance, I believe thats the "Gulch" you are referring to. Of course down to the right of the box office is the CNN Center, unless the weather is awful outside I would never go to that one. Then inside the CNN Center if you go towards Gorin/Taco Mac and out those doors there is an entrance over there with a view of the GA World Congress Center, which is probably the best entrance of all.

I think you are missing the entrance that is literally from the parking deck across from Philips. If you park across Philips from the Centennial Olympic Park Drive (I believe its the CNN Center parking), then on the 2nd floor from the top there is a walkway across the parking deck that leads you right into Philips. And finally, I believe there is an entrance on Philips Drive (this would be outside on the walkway street). This is the entrance that you can turn around and see the GA Dome. Now I might be getting the Philips Drive and Taco Mac entrance confused, its been a while since I actually walked down Philips Drive.

I find it odd on this board that there aren't more posts about getting to the Arena, things to do, parking, blah blah blah. There are a decent amount of posters that have tricks to the Arena to make the experience better but instead we have more complaints from posters than questions.

[niremetal]

You seem to be missing at least one entrance. I am assuming the "main entrance" is the one next to the box office which I believe is also called the Techwood Entrance (there should be at least 3 doors there, maybe even 4). Then if you go down to the left of the box office is the Marta entrance, I believe thats the "Gulch" you are referring to. Of course down to the right of the box office is the CNN Center, unless the weather is awful outside I would never go to that one. Then inside the CNN Center if you go towards Gorin/Taco Mac and out those doors there is an entrance over there with a view of the GA World Congress Center, which is probably the best entrance of all.

I think you are missing the entrance that is literally from the parking deck across from Philips. If you park across Philips from the Centennial Olympic Park Drive (I believe its the CNN Center parking), then on the 2nd floor from the top there is a walkway across the parking deck that leads you right into Philips. And finally, I believe there is an entrance on Philips Drive (this would be outside on the walkway street). This is the entrance that you can turn around and see the GA Dome. Now I might be getting the Philips Drive and Taco Mac entrance confused, its been a while since I actually walked down Philips Drive.

I find it odd on this board that there aren't more posts about getting to the Arena, things to do, parking, blah blah blah. There are a decent amount of posters that have tricks to the Arena to make the experience better but instead we have more complaints from posters than questions.

Frankly, I think the biggest "access" issue for Phillips Arena is something that only the city and state governments can resolve: Access to MARTA.

I don't live in Atlanta anymore, but my family still does and I try to catch a game whenever I'm in town. When I drive and park, the walkway from the garage that you mentioned takes me right to a different entrance. But I hate driving downtown, so I prefer to take MARTA when my schedule permits.

The problem is getting to a convenient MARTA station. I've never had an issue getting into the arena once I get on MARTA, so I don't really require advice on that. There's an entrance to Phillips right at the top of the escalator. But getting to a MARTA station from my house is tough because my family lives in Marietta. We have to drive 20 minutes (on a good day) just to get to North Springs station. Then, it's at least another 30 minutes to get to the Dome/Phillips station. In other words, the fact that there are no MARTA stations convenient to where my family lives pretty much eliminates the "convenience" benefit of having a MARTA station right at the site of the arena.

Frankly, getting TO a MARTA station isn't even my biggest concern (I can always find someone to drop me off at a station). It's getting home after a game that's a problem.

I've lived in 4 different cities in the northeast since I left Atlanta. In every one of them, the transit system reaches every major neighborhood and suburban county in the metro area (the most notable exception being Georgetown in DC). There's no issue getting to a convenient rail or subway station. So if I decide at lunch on the day of a game that I want to go see the game, there's no problem - I know that I'll be able to get there from my office and go back home after the game without needing a car. That's not possible in Atlanta unless you happen to be one of the lucky few that lives within walking distance of a MARTA station. I once saw a chart that showed what percentage of different metro areas' populations live within walking distance of a dedicated (ie not a surface road bus) transit station. As I recall, the major northeastern cities were all above 25% (most were well above 30%), as were Chicago, San Francisco, and a few other cities. Atlanta was somewhere around 10%. If you expand it to "within a 5-minute surface road drive from a dedicated transit system station," all the cities in the first category were above 50% while Atlanta stayed under 15%. That's because in Atlanta, growth is not centered around areas that have easy access to MARTA - on the contrary, the housing market historically has been stronger in areas far away from MARTA stations.

The excuses that Cobb, Gwinnett, and the other "wealthy" suburban counties give for not allowing transit to expand there are, frankly, BS (and it's really obviously BS if you look at real-world crime and economic statistics in other cities), but that's better left for the politics forum. Suffice it to say that while Atlanta's poor transit system is just one factor, it's a factor that will become more and more important as Atlanta continues to sprawl without expanding MARTA to the areas where people are moving (and have already moved). It's always going to be a challenge (to put it charitably) to convince someone who works in Marietta and lives in Canton to regularly attend weeknight games downtown as long as I-75/Connector/575 is their only way of getting there and back.

Edited December 7, 2010 by niremetal

[Guest]

The excuses that Cobb, Gwinnett, and the other "wealthy" suburban counties give for not allowing transit to expand there are, frankly, BS based on real-world crime and economic statistics in other cities, but that's better left for the politics forum. Suffice it to say that while Atlanta's poor transit system is just one factor, it's a factor that will become more and more important as Atlanta continues to sprawl without expanding MARTA to the areas where people are moving (and have already moved). It's always going to be a challenge (to put it charitably) to convince someone who works in Marietta and lives in Canton to regularly attend weeknight games downtown as long as I-75/Connector/575 is their only way of getting there and back.

I am not too familiar with what the arguments are, but I could venture to guess there are some not so subtle messages in the reasoning that really aren't for this part of the Squawk. Even ignoring those, I would find it to be very costly to extend MARTA beyond North Springs. Last time I was driving on 400, it doesn't seem like there is much land to continue above North Springs towards Roswell area. I am assuming the logical place to put a MARTA station would be to go all the way up to North Point Mall, which would be one helluva project. Now I am not too familiar with the I-75 of North Atlanta, but is there space to continue up there? I would assume there would be another split in MARTA at the Lindbergh Center going northwest. Probably very costly as well. Even though these are very costly, the costs will only increase in the future because of the urban sprawl so if it is too costly now it will continue to be costly in the future.

[niremetal]

I am not too familiar with what the arguments are, but I could venture to guess there are some not so subtle messages in the reasoning that really aren't for this part of the Squawk. Even ignoring those, I would find it to be very costly to extend MARTA beyond North Springs. Last time I was driving on 400, it doesn't seem like there is much land to continue above North Springs towards Roswell area. I am assuming the logical place to put a MARTA station would be to go all the way up to North Point Mall, which would be one helluva project. Now I am not too familiar with the I-75 of North Atlanta, but is there space to continue up there? I would assume there would be another split in MARTA at the Lindbergh Center going northwest. Probably very costly as well. Even though these are very costly, the costs will only increase in the future because of the urban sprawl so if it is too costly now it will continue to be costly in the future.

The proposals that I've heard are to extend the North Springs line up to Alpharetta and to implement a BRT (bus rapid transit) system along 75 and 575. BRT systems basically wall off a lane on each side of the median that is devoted solely for bus use, with stations every mile or two. Think of them like extra HOV lanes, the differences being 1) it would only be for buses, not for carpooling vehicles; and 2) they are separated by a physical barrier from the rest of traffic (thus ensuring that non-transit vehicle accidents cannot affect the transit system). BRT systems are much cheaper to build and maintain than rail systems. The big disadvantage is that BRT is usually limited in terms of the number of passengers they can handle (though a couple systems have been put in place in other countries that handle more than 40k passengers per hour). Such a system along I-75 would be able to get someone from Woodstock to Civic Center station (the most logical terminus) in less than 40 minutes.

They already are building a BRT line along Memorial Drive. Like any transit system, though, it's tough to have success unless the scale is pretty big. Essentially having a bus monorail won't do much good, which means the isolated Memorial Drive BRT is less likely to be successful than it would be as part of a broader BRT system.

A BRT system along 75 would actually be a great solution for attending sporting events, if nothing else - it's a relatively cheap way to ensure that people could get from the northern suburbs to the arena without risking sitting in traffic for an hour.

Edited December 6, 2010 by niremetal

[lethalweapon3]

Since it's clear that many of the Hawks' most dedicated fans struggle to articulate any clear benefits for attending the games (in lieu of rooting & sniping from afar via live TV), my next supposition involves... live TV. Could eliminating live regional broadcasts of home games (on SportsSouth/FoxSports) create a measurable bump in attendance?

In this scenario, such games are time-delayed to midnight ET on game nights. Road games remain live. It wouldn't eliminate all live access to the action at Philips (AM/FM radio locally, or pay-per-view via NBA League Pass). And before midnight, fans could still wait for snippets and highlights of the action via the 11 o'clock news, NBA-TV, NBA.com, ESPN, etc.

But otherwise, if there is indeed demand to witness live action, we'll see you at the Factory! Or, not... Would you definitely attend games more often?

Many of us could work around it probably via atdhe/channelsurfing (like we did in the preseason), if there's a road-team broadcast, but it's not clear that will be a reliable long term measure. Besides, we tend to enjoy getting our play-by-play from our Hawks' homers above all others.

~lw3