J-Smoove needs a Coach, not a trade!

[Diesel]

Why do people keep saying this? I'm still waiting for someone to cite me examples of...

1) players 5+ years into their career (Smoove is wrapping up his 7th); and

2) players who were so in love with the weaknesses in their game (like Smoove is with his jumper and ability to run the break)

...that Phil, Doc, Rudy T, Pop, or any other elite-level NBA coach "molded" into a vastly improved player.

Can you be more specific?? You know like: He had to be born on Dec 5th... Something like that... I think that would make your question right.

However, I think you've been cited Dennis Rodman, Shawn Kemp (in Cleveland with Fratello), Zebo (as a team player and not a black hole), Ron Harper (going from being a scoring 2 to a PG with the Bulls) Rasheed and Larry Brown... ...

Then there are guys like Jordan and Nique who added outside shooting to their games (that was primarily dunking) to make their teams better.

The point is that some players work at changing their games for their team's benefit and usually at the request of a coach. Some coaches are good for making that happen.

Not only is this a great question about Josh, it's a great question about the team. When do we stop trying to tweak a broken core? I can't think of another team that has had as much failure, to the level we've had it - we're talking HISTORIC failure...TWICE in the last 2 seasons - that continues to roll out the same configuration year after year, game after game. When do the chances and excuses stop? It's laughable really... There are people that want to bring Mike Woodson back. lol Give him some more chances...after all those years.

A smart front office would realize the real problem with this team. Individually, we have some very attractive pieces. They're not fitting together and the results, the ones that count anyway, have been nothing short of miserable. So here's an idea...if we get swept/beaten in the 1st round - let's bring this entire team back with another coach.

This is why we can never become relevant. Any other winning team in the NBA would have overhauled this team 2 seasons ago.

I agree.

Edited March 28, 2011 by Diesel

[Buzzard]

I have to agree then disagree.

I think Josh is a tweener. I think, however, that he prefers to play outside because he has a touch of punk-b*tch in him. Moreover, he has had his way for a long time. I'm talking grade school. Josh is indicative of his generation. Kids have been made to believe that they are more special than they are. Josh comes from a basketball playing family... none pro, but could have been. He suffered from the same problem that made them not pro material. Stubbornness. Add to that the sense of entitlement and you have Josh who does what he wants and makes life hard on a coach. The way to treat Josh is to break him. That's what Doc and Sloan would do. It's like the 6 million dollar man. We can remake him. But instead of Better, Stronger, Faster, we would want to remake him smarter. That means that every time he doesn't follow direction, bench him. He needs a boundary.. not somebody to tell him to do what he does and play good shot blocking defense. That's enabling him. Josh has the ability to raise a team or to kill a team. We have seen both.

I agree with the premise that he needs to be benched for playing dumb. Doc and Sloan would have buried him on the bench if he ever pulled a stunt with his PG like the one witnessed last week when he did not give up the ball to Hinrich at the top of the key. With that being said I think Josh would probably be a sixth man under Doc or Sloan.

Those two expect smart unselfish play and Smoove has shown us he is not capable of doing that night in and night out for seven years. Now add in his tweener size and there is no doubt in my mind Smoove would be coming off the bench and he would quite possibly flourish as Manu and JT have done once he got his mind right. If he continued to play dumb and selfish, both of those coaches would demand a trade.

There is a reason we have not been able to move any of our players for a PG or Center, they are not as valuable to other teams as they are to us homers. Josh would be hard pressed to start on any of the top 6 to 8 teams in the league. But with our weak front court and young first time coaches he is a starter all day.

Edited March 28, 2011 by Buzzard

[Popeye]

I'm assuming this was said to make a point because looks to me like Josh is already doing all that. He is out shooting JJ from 3. It is pretty interesting that very few fans have any confidence in Josh shooting 3s but we are fine with Joe shooting them, with less success.

All of those 3's Smoove attempted were wide open shots and he only hits 30% of them so go figure..... While he is struggling this year Joe is a proven 3 point shooter and his 3's are highly contested unlike Smoove's.....

[AHF]

Josh would be hard pressed to start on any of the top 6 to 8 teams in the league. But with our weak front court and young first time coaches he is a starter all day.

IMO:

Boston - PP/KG start over Josh

Orlando - Josh starts over Bass

Miami - Lebron/Bosh start over Josh

SAS - Josh starts over Blair

Dallas - Josh starts over Marion

LAL - Questionable whether Josh or Artest start.

OKC - Questionable whether Josh or Ibaka start.

Chicago - Deng/Boozer start over Josh.

[MaceCase]

IMO:

Boston - PP/KG start over Josh

Orlando - Josh starts over Bass

Miami - Lebron/Bosh start over Josh

SAS - Josh starts over Blair

Dallas - Josh starts over Marion

LAL - Questionable whether Josh or Artest start.

OKC - Questionable whether Josh or Ibaka start.

Chicago - Deng/Boozer start over Josh.

Josh would start at Center? :whistling:

[AHF]

Josh would start at Center? :whistling:

Tim Duncan starts in that lineup and is backed up by Blair. (His 4 inches on Blair make this a less than devastating impact on the lineup). According to 82games, he is playing all his minutes there anyway. ;)

http://www.82games.com/1011/10SAS20.HTM#bypos

[MaceCase]

Pop is going to have a word with whoever runs that site. They are sullying the legacy of one of the greatest pure PFs of all time, all time!

[AHF]

Pop is going to have a word with whoever runs that site. They are sullying the legacy of one of the greatest pure PFs of all time, all time!

I think that is taking it a bit too far but clearly he isn't playing all his minutes there. I do think a Josh/Duncan frontcout backed up by Blair is better than a Blair/Duncan frontcourt backed up by Josh.

[Buzzard]

IMO:

Boston - PP/KG start over Josh

Orlando - Josh starts over Bass

Miami - Lebron/Bosh start over Josh

SAS - Josh starts over Blair

Dallas - Josh starts over Marion

LAL - Questionable whether Josh or Artest start.

OKC - Questionable whether Josh or Ibaka start.

Chicago - Deng/Boozer start over Josh.

The only one I can give you here without question is Bass. Smoove at SF is a reach IMO and him over Blair at center is funny also. Just the fact that we are having this discussion though proves my point. Josh is not the great player who just needs a coach. He is a decent player that might be better than a aging Marion, Artest, or Odom at SF and is better than a borderline starter in Bass at PF. Another good point here is you are having to reach at SF to find a spot for him when he is our PF. I think this speaks volumes and confirms how weak we are with our bigs. I appreciate the work AHF, going to plus one you for it.

Bet If you went deeper say with the top 15 to 20 teams in the league you would have similar results, more SF slots than PF. Smooves big problem is he is not a good enough ball handler to play SF, he cannot take people off the dribble or stick with the players who can dribble penetrate. And he is not a good enough post player, he cannot take players down on the low block and has to hard a time with bulkier post players, to play PF. Classic tweener and you do not get a All Star caliber player in return for a player like him, which is what most on this board think he should bring in return.

[AHF]

him over Blair at center is funny also.

Why do you think Josh Smith would ever start at center when playing next to a 7 footer?

Another good point here is you are having to reach at SF to find a spot for him when he is our PF. I think this speaks volumes and confirms how weak we are with our bigs. I appreciate the work AHF, going to plus one you for it.

Bet If you went deeper say with the top 15 to 20 teams in the league you would have similar results, more SF slots than PF.

I'll take a look but those teams have studly PFs like Pau Gasol, Dirk Nowitzki, etc.

[AHF]

For the bottom ten teams, Smoove starts at:

Definite:

Cleveland - PF

Washington - PF

Toronto - PF

Sacramento - PF

NJ - PF

Detroit - PF

LAC - SF

Milwaukee - PF

Charlotte - PF

Questionable:

Minnesota - SF over Beasley?

[Buzzard]

Why do you think Josh Smith would ever start at center when playing next to a 7 footer?

I'll take a look but those teams have studly PFs like Pau Gasol, Dirk Nowitzki, etc.

Point on Blair is him and Duncan alternate (switch) assignments in the flow of the game. Duncan deals with the taller assignments but Blair can hold his own against most PF's and Centers in the league defensively. Blair is a true PF that can play center, similar to Big Baby or our own Horford whereas Smoove is a reach even at PF. I do think Smoove would come off the bench in San Antonio just as I think he would in OKC with Ibaka a true PF who can play center starting.

Just my opinions but Smoove is kind of like Lamar Odom only not as good at playing the SF position. If Odom is not starting in LA, I do not see how Josh could.

Edited March 29, 2011 by Buzzard

[Buzzard]

For the bottom ten teams, Smoove starts at:

Definite:

Cleveland - PF Varejao and Jamison both out. If not, Hickson at PF, Verejao at Center, Jamison at SF. Not saying this is a no brainer, but definite that Josh would be the starting PF is way to strong.

Washington - PF Over Blatche, McGee, and Booker. I don't think so. Maybe he gets the nod at SF and takes Bookers spot as BU PF.

Toronto - PF Ed Davis is the future there and with a healthy Evans, at the most Josh starts this season but next year he would be their SF

Sacramento - PF Have to say no question on this one.

NJ - PF or this one

Detroit - PF This is funny but true. Another tweener is the last thing they need but Josh would be their starting PF.

LAC - SF No doubt

Milwaukee - PF Agree but with Irsan, Luc, Sanders, and Gooden in tow how much would the Bucks be willing to give up to get Josh?

Charlotte - PF Agree but with a healthy Tyrus Thomas Josh would have a very quick leash in Charlotte

Questionable:

Minnesota - SF over Beasley? A healthy Beasley is a better SF but it would be a great battle for the starting job.

Great list, not only does it show us how weak other teams are at Josh's positions but it should help us here on Squawk be a little more realistic with who we can get for Josh and also who may consider Josh a viable player to trade for.

Edited March 29, 2011 by Buzzard

[AHF]

Definite:

Cleveland - PF

Varejao and Jamison both out. If not, Hickson at PF, Verejao at Center, Jamison at SF. Not saying this is a no brainer, but definite that Josh would be the starting PF is way to strong.

IMO, Josh Smith > Hickson at PF for sure but I'll concede reasonable minds could differ. Hickson is not an impact player in my view and makes Josh Smith look like an efficient scorer without Lebron giving him easy looks. (He has a sub .500 ts% this year for Hickson).

Washington - PF Over Blatche, McGee, and Booker. I don't think so. Maybe he gets the nod at SF and takes Bookers spot as BU PF.

IMO, Josh Smith over Blatche for sure. Blatche is less productive and more mentally challenged.

Toronto - PF Ed Davis is the future there and with a healthy Evans, at the most Josh starts this season but next year he would be their SF

Josh Smith > Ed Davis, IMO. Give him a few years and he might be able to make a case but he isn't there now and might never get there.

Sacramento - PF Have to say no question on this one.

NJ - PF or this one

Detroit - PF This is funny but true. Another tweener is the last thing they need but Josh would be their starting PF.

They may not want another tweener, but he is the no brainer starter at PF for them.

LAC - SF No doubt

Milwaukee - PF Agree but with Irsan, Luc, Sanders, and Gooden in tow how much would the Bucks be willing to give up to get Josh?

Charlotte - PF Agree but with a healthy Tyrus Thomas Josh would have a very quick leash in Charlotte

Josh Smith easily > Tyrus Thomas, another less productive guy with a worse natural basketball IQ than Josh.

Questionable:

Minnesota - SF over Beasley? A healthy Beasley is a better SF but it would be a great battle for the starting job.

[BIgAl]

Get Bosh or Ibaka ! :D

[Buzzard]

Definite:

Cleveland - PF

Varejao and Jamison both out. If not, Hickson at PF, Verejao at Center, Jamison at SF. Not saying this is a no brainer, but definite that Josh would be the starting PF is way to strong.

IMO, Josh Smith > Hickson at PF for sure but I'll concede reasonable minds could differ. Hickson is not an impact player in my view and makes Josh Smith look like an efficient scorer without Lebron giving him easy looks. (He has a sub .500 ts% this year for Hickson).

Washington - PF Over Blatche, McGee, and Booker. I don't think so. Maybe he gets the nod at SF and takes Bookers spot as BU PF.

IMO, Josh Smith over Blatche for sure. Blatche is less productive and more mentally challenged.

Toronto - PF Ed Davis is the future there and with a healthy Evans, at the most Josh starts this season but next year he would be their SF

Josh Smith > Ed Davis, IMO. Give him a few years and he might be able to make a case but he isn't there now and might never get there.

Sacramento - PF Have to say no question on this one.

NJ - PF or this one

Detroit - PF This is funny but true. Another tweener is the last thing they need but Josh would be their starting PF.

They may not want another tweener, but he is the no brainer starter at PF for them.

LAC - SF No doubt

Milwaukee - PF Agree but with Irsan, Luc, Sanders, and Gooden in tow how much would the Bucks be willing to give up to get Josh?

Charlotte - PF Agree but with a healthy Tyrus Thomas Josh would have a very quick leash in Charlotte

Josh Smith easily > Tyrus Thomas, another less productive guy with a worse natural basketball IQ than Josh.

Questionable:

Minnesota - SF over Beasley? A healthy Beasley is a better SF but it would be a great battle for the starting job.

Pistons: The reason I laugh at the thought of Smoove in Detroit is because I play ROTO in a Detroit based game at PASPN. Their fans are already in disarray over Charlie V, a 6'10 PF that plays like a SF and Ben Gordon a 6'3" SG who thinks he is a PG at times. Then if they had Smith and somehow ended up with a traditional PF that could give Smoove a run at the starting position, that would be about 160 million or more tied up in three tweener roleplayers and there would be a mutiny on that web site. There is no doubt Smoove would be the starter, but that possibility struck me as being funny as hell..

Bobcats: No way Tyrus beats out Smoove in Charlotte without a brain transplant. But I do think he is a solid defensive option and gives their coach a better option than we have in Powell on those nights when Smoove wants to play PG or argue with the refs instead of getting back on D.

Raps: Davis is a season or two away but Evans is leading the league in rebounding. Again I think Smoove starts but he would be on a short leash or moved to SF when and if the Raps wanted to go big.

The two we disagree on are Hickson and Blatche. I do not think it is a no brainer that Smoove beats out either and it has nothing to do with offense. I think when two players are close to equal in talent, skills, and BBIQ most coaches will go with the better defensive matchup. It would be a tough call for their coach to make and could make for some interesting lineups for both teams. Smoove may or may not be the starter for both teams IMO. And no doubt, he would have serious competition from two players who are traditional PF types. Him being listed as definite starter does not seem like a fair appraisal of Blatche or Hickson.

Just my two cents on your list and seeing that we only disagree on two teams (players), I do not think we are that far apart in our opinions on Smoove and his game.