To the Joe Haters....

[thescout5]

Diesel, the problem in Miami wasn't Wade who was scoring and still being a great player. No one on the Hawks can counter with Wade and yet Miami adds 2 star players and is in the championship. When's the last time a big free agent signed with the Hawks? JJ and that was years ago. The only way the Hawks are going to improve is through trade or draft.Maybe we can sell JJ off to the Bulls and free up some money? Shooting guards are alot easy to acquire than most positions. What does JJ usually do in the playoffs? Not much especially against elite defenses. Why does our main scoring have to come from shooting guard? Would we be a better team if we had a legit small forward and a lesser shooting guard than JJ? You win mainly in the playoffs in the paint. The Hawks rely on outside shooting and die by it in the playoffs.

How many top 5-15 players are in the championship this year? Dallas has Dirk and Miami has Wade,James and possibly Bosh. How do the Hawks improve? Since no free agents want to come to the Hawks trade is the most likely scenario.The NBA runs in cycles and when the Hawks sucked for so long and had 3 top 5 picks they blew it by selecting mostly wrong players. Horford many wanted him and while he disappeared in the playoffs still was a good pick. You simply can't blow top 5 picks and BK didn't know his $#ss from first base drafting players, How do you add talent to the roster if not trading or drafting since no free agents sign with the Hawks?

[MaceCase]

I'm saying that if the ASG liked Jamal more . . or if they didn't want to pay JJ top dollar . . then yes, they would've let him walk. That's what some people wanted right? For him to walk?

But I'll throw the ball to you. You name a scenario complete with names that we could've legitimately brought here last year, had JJ decide not to come back to ATL. Name some names. Name a scenario.

I named mine . . which was the most plausible one out there, because we could easily extend Jamal and not worry about the salary cap issues that would've prohibited the ASG from bringing in other free agents. If you can't see the scenario in which the ASG would've given Jamal the big contract if JJ wasn't here, then I don't know what to say. If they didn't, then we'd definitely be screwed and doomed for the lottery. But not a worse enough team to get one of the top picks unless we got extremely lucky.

Solo made what? 1.5 mill last year? It's not like Indiana threw the bank at him. I think he got something like a 2 yr - 3 million dollar deal or something.

As for JJ in Phoenix . . JJ was a "so-called" 4th option that was the 2nd best ballhandler and shot creator on the team . . that averaged 17 ppg - 5 rebs - 4 asst.

Some of you guys throw around that 4th option comment like he was a scrub in Phoenix or something. Like he was Marvin Williams in Phoenix as a 4th option or something.

JJ had shown even before Nash got there in 04, that he could play the point and the 2, seeing that before Nash got there, it was he, Amare, and Shawn Marion. I think the scenario was that they traded Stephon Marbury or he got hurt. I forget the circumstances. But here's what that 4th option was doing without Nash on the squad in 03 - 04

Jan - 21 ppg - 5 rebs - 5 asst - 47% FG

Feb - 18 ppg - 5 rebs - 6 asst - 43% FG

Mar - 19 ppg - 5 rebs - 5 asst - 46% FG

Apr - 16 ppg - 5 rebs - 6 asst - 38% FG

So that 4th option the following year had already shown MAJOR SIGNS of becoming a baller. But when Nash got there, he was their designated slasher/shooter, and had the ball less in his hands.

So you can keep referring to him as a 4th option, like he was some sort of scrub or something. It's straight BS is what it is. He was a 4th option in the offense only . . . not a 4th option in skilll and production.

Maybe that's what you should do C to C.

Find a player that we can get right now, that isn't one of the main guys on the team, but is putting up comparable numbers to JJ in Phoenix. Find us at the very least a 17 ppg - 4 rebs - 4 assist guy . . . and we can trade JJ for him. Maybe the Clippers will give us Eric Gordon ( which would be silly, seeing that the Clips would need more than JJ to put them over the top . . and Gordon may arguably be a better scorer than JJ right now anyway ).

But go ahead . .find us a young guy. Just don't say you'd trade him. Tell us who we could legitimately bring back.

North, do you understand why your reasoning is complete and utter garbage? Let me tell you, you are arguing on the premise that had Joe left Atlanta it would have been because Sund and the ASG liked Jamal more or just fine enough to replace Joe........You are f***ing kidding me, this is your most plausible scenario? A scenario that omits the fact that Jamal's contract has even as I'm typing this yet to expire? This is your thesis for your boogie man full of s*** strawman argument that had JJ walked the team would have thrown an even stupider contract at Jamal........a year before it even expired. Pathetic really that you tried to rationalize it away by saying "well they did it with Al so of course they'd do it with Jamal." So again, the one player heading into an uncertain future due to the CBA beats the fact that Josh Smith, Josh Chilldress, Marvin Williams, Mike Bibby, Zaza Pachulia, Flip Murray, Solomon Jones and oh Joe Johnson have all gone into the summer of the end of their contracts without extensions.... but oh they did it for Al so you just know Jamal was next!!!!!!!!! Because that's just the trend that the ASG has demonstrated...lol.

So let's move past your "plausible" scenario where the ASG would have extended Jamal for whatever years 60 mil before they even had to despite uhhhhhhhhhhhhm

Without Joe and with the elimination of Chills' cap hold the team would of had 47 mil in committed salary to 8 players, add the min roster charge capholds and the charge for our pick that brought the team's salary commitment's to 51.2 mil. the cap is at 58mil that means that we would of had 6.8 mil under the soft cap to spend.

I wonder what two way two guard we could of afforded for that amount hmmmmmm

oh I know! Wesley Matthews at 5.7 mil! In his rookie year he put up a per36 of 13.7ppg 2.2apg and 3.4rpg on 48% shooting 38% from three and 12.3 PER as just a rookie 4th option. In his 2nd year where he had to replace Brandon Roy in the starting lineup and had his role bumped up to being at worst the 2nd or 3rd option he averaged 17ppg with the same assist and rebound numbers on 45% shooting and 40% from 3 15.5 PER. Do you know Joe's Per36 in his contract year before he signed with ATL? 15.6ppg 3.2apg and 4.7rebounds 15.1 PER. Oh yea, future star in the making numbers right there... oh whats that? You think maybe playing 40+minutes a night inflated his stats? Yea I think so too.

The team could have gone into the 2010-11 season had Joe left with a SG troika of Matthews, Jamal and Namesake Jr. I think that's not a bad rotation especially knowing now that Teague and Namesake Jr. can score the ball so that wouldn't have been an issue. Of course this doesn't take into consideration whether or not we received a partial TPE for a Joe sign and trade or possibly even a prospect back like say a Wilson Chandler (16.5points, 6.1rebounds, 1.7 assists Per36, 450fg% 350% from 3, 13.7 PER last season) but even if we had struck out completely in free agency we still would of had Jamal and Jr. as a contingency at the 2 while still leaving space to facilitate a trade between Jamal's and Mo's expiring.

As for 2011-12, omitting, of course, your stupidity that Jamal would have been resigned at all costs to a 60 mil contract, the team would have been sitting once again at 48.5 mil and that's thanks to Kirkland's larger deal than Bibby's to 9 players. Again between our trade assets, cap space and MLE wings available on the market due to not many teams having capspace and their own teams having their own commitments (J.R. Smith and Nick Young, both players who's career per36 averages positively s*** on Joe's contract year but I'll add their career highs just for fun Young: 20 points, 3 rebounds 2 assists 14.5 PER, Smith: 23points, 4 rebounds 3 assists 18 PER ) we would have been in the position to replace him adequately from outside and within.

As for Solo, *sigh* North, which contract amount gives a team that is skirting the lux tax more flexibility 825K (that's thousands by the way) or 1.5 million for 2 years no less?

So again, North. Keep spewing the garbage "most plausible" scenario that you speak of and continue to beguile me with stories that Joe Johnson had demonstrated so much in Phoenix that no other young wing has managed to duplicate and I will continue to say that you are clearly just full of s***, good night.

Edited May 28, 2011 by CrawfulToCrawesome

[KB21]

This is a list of the problems with Joe Johnson and paying him the contract the Hawks are paying him:

1. He is not an efficient scorer because he is a high volume jump shooter that doesn't attack the basket or draw fouls.

2. He has a very strong tendancy to break away from the offensive scheme and play too much one on one basketball, isolating himself with the ball and forcing his teammates to watch him.

3. He doesn't defend his position well.

4. He doesn't rebound the basketball.

5. He doesn't get steals.

6. He doesn't block shots.

When you combine all of these issues, you have a player that in the grand scheme of things contributes very little to the team's wins. The advanced statistics of wins produced show this. Joe Johnson only produced a little over 4 wins during this past season. The average shooting guard in the NBA will produce around 5 wins. Joe produced 4 wins. If the Hawks had replaced Joe with just an average shooting guard, they would have likely won 45 games during the regular season instead of 44 games. This is what we are paying Joe Johnson $123 million to do - make very little contribution to the teams wins.

The Chicago Bulls got 8.0 wins produced out of Ronnie Brewer this year. Ronnie Brewer signed a 3 year deal worth $12.5 million last season. Which team got more bang for their buck there? Chicago did. Ronnie Brewer may not be the scorer or offensive player that Joe Johnson is, though Ronnie is more efficient, but he is a better defender, rebounder, and more willing passer. Your defense, particularly with getting steals and blocked shots, and being an efficient scorer are much more important contributions to wins than high volume scoring. Scoring 30 points a game is nice, but when it comes on 30 shot attempts, you don't really help your team much.

I'm not asking the Hawks to go out and get a #1 scorer. In fact, I would prefer Larry Drew to be able to run the offense the way he wants it run, which is to let the movement of the ball and player movement create good shot opportunities. If you want a #1 scorer, then I'd rather see the Hawks use Al Horford as their go to scorer. He's more efficient as a scorer than Joe is, and he also contributes a lot more to the wins than Joe does.

[Diesel]

The problem is this you equate Joe to Kareem or Magic or Dr J or KG when the fact is that no matter how you try and spin it Joe would be there sidekick . They would be the superstar and he would be the jamal wilkes.

Joe aint a superstar so to keep saying he needs help is ridiculous there is no amount of help in the league that we can Joe sans BRINGING IN A SUPERSTAR AND PUSHING HIM DOWN TO THE THE SECOND OR 3RD OPTION HE IS .

OF course the lakers had several guys who could step up but the facts are that Kareem and Magic were two of the most consistent players ever .

You like to use KG but KG was first team all nba the fact is that if you gave 29-30 yr old KG a player of Al,Josh,jamals caliber along with a Zaza and even Marvin Williams he gets this team to the finals at least .

Thats what the underlying problem really you keep trying to slide in that you think Joe is on the same caliber of player as these HOF players and hes simply not . Thats doest mean Joe sucks but that doesnt mean we should take on the ridiculous notion that we are somehow going to be able to build a championship team headlines with his inconsistency.

Thats our problem we have 3 very good players who are very inconsistent and whose play varies from game to game between average to good with occasional glimpses of greatness thrown in .

Kareem consistently great

Magic consistently great

KG consistently great

Now when you have someone who can give you that game to game and then you can add someone else who can consistently just be GOOD well now you are working with something.

We dont have anyone we can say brings there A game every game yet we somehow want to build a team around this ?

I dont think Joe ,Al or Josh sucks but I also believe that weve seen enough of them to know that they are nearly consistent enough to be locked into the status that weve given them .

Another guy that didn't watch who he speaks of..

While Magic and Kareem are great.

KG and Pierce and Allen were not.

It's even a question Mark on Wade. Without Help, Wade is a first round exit.. To Joe's Hawks.

However, My point was not a elevation of Joe. My point is the fact that these players didn't win it all until they got some real help in a real system. Even Kobe missed the playoffs until he got Pau...

Winning requires having the right conditions. 1 player cannot take a team anywhere. 1 great player cannot win a championship. I'm not saying that Joe is on Magic's level. But I am saying that Joe is good enough to be considered as part of our championship puzzle. History will show that as we look back over the Hawks best players... The order will be:

1. Petit

2. Nique

3. Deke

4. Joe

5. Smitty

Until somebody else comes along.

Diesel, the problem in Miami wasn't Wade who was scoring and still being a great player. No one on the Hawks can counter with Wade and yet Miami adds 2 star players and is in the championship. When's the last time a big free agent signed with the Hawks? JJ and that was years ago. The only way the Hawks are going to improve is through trade or draft.Maybe we can sell JJ off to the Bulls and free up some money? Shooting guards are alot easy to acquire than most positions. What does JJ usually do in the playoffs? Not much especially against elite defenses. Why does our main scoring have to come from shooting guard? Would we be a better team if we had a legit small forward and a lesser shooting guard than JJ? You win mainly in the playoffs in the paint. The Hawks rely on outside shooting and die by it in the playoffs.

How many top 5-15 players are in the championship this year? Dallas has Dirk and Miami has Wade,James and possibly Bosh. How do the Hawks improve? Since no free agents want to come to the Hawks trade is the most likely scenario.The NBA runs in cycles and when the Hawks sucked for so long and had 3 top 5 picks they blew it by selecting mostly wrong players. Horford many wanted him and while he disappeared in the playoffs still was a good pick. You simply can't blow top 5 picks and BK didn't know his $#ss from first base drafting players, How do you add talent to the roster if not trading or drafting since no free agents sign with the Hawks?

Scout, you're defeating your own argument.

You say... " Atlanta can't sign big free agents"

- I agree

Then you say " The only way the Hawks can improve is through trade or draft"

- I agree.

The you say " We can sell of JJ to the Bulls and free up some money".

to which I say... WHAT GOOD IS MONEY GOING TO DO IF WE CAN'T SIGN BIG FREE AGENTS??

Do you believe that trading Joe for cash is going to make us look more attractive or less attractive to big free agents??

Thank you for proving my point. I ought to give you a +1!!

[Diesel]

This is a list of the problems with Joe Johnson and paying him the contract the Hawks are paying him:

1. He is not an efficient scorer because he is a high volume jump shooter that doesn't attack the basket or draw fouls.

2. He has a very strong tendancy to break away from the offensive scheme and play too much one on one basketball, isolating himself with the ball and forcing his teammates to watch him.

3. He doesn't defend his position well.

4. He doesn't rebound the basketball.

5. He doesn't get steals.

6. He doesn't block shots.

I like List KB...

Let's start on yours..

1. You are right, he is not a attack the basket guy. That's not a problem. For years, SGs were not attack the basket guys. That's just recent. However, that can be made up for with personnel and coaching. Maybe he's not called to attack the basket outside of his floater.

2. I disagree. I think Woody ball was Iso Joe. However, if you watched the playoffs, he played within the offense. This season, he played less isolation ball and his stats suffered for that.

3. I disagree. Joe is probably the 2nd best positional defender on our team.

4. You are right, Joe is not a great rebounder. I guess that is why he plays predominantly at the 2.

5. Nope.

6. Nope.

So, you are saying that you want a SG who:

1. Attacks the basket and has a high efficiency.
   
2. Plays within the offense.
   
3. Plays very good defense.
   
4. Is a good rebounder
   
5. Gets steals
   
6. Blocks shots.
   

Sounds like Dawayne Wade to me...

So your requirement for our SG position is Dawayne Wade.

On top of that, you're saying that Statistics lead you to believe that Ronnie Brewer is better than Joe Johnson??

Damn KB.... You used to provide a much better accounting of yourself.

This is just tragedy on the bulletin board.

[KB21]

I like List KB...

Let's start on yours..

1. You are right, he is not a attack the basket guy. That's not a problem. For years, SGs were not attack the basket guys. That's just recent. However, that can be made up for with personnel and coaching. Maybe he's not called to attack the basket outside of his floater.

2. I disagree. I think Woody ball was Iso Joe. However, if you watched the playoffs, he played within the offense. This season, he played less isolation ball and his stats suffered for that.

3. I disagree. Joe is probably the 2nd best positional defender on our team.

4. You are right, Joe is not a great rebounder. I guess that is why he plays predominantly at the 2.

5. Nope.

6. Nope.

So, you are saying that you want a SG who:

1. Attacks the basket and has a high efficiency.
   
2. Plays within the offense.
   
3. Plays very good defense.
   
4. Is a good rebounder
   
5. Gets steals
   
6. Blocks shots.
   

Sounds like Dawayne Wade to me...

So your requirement for our SG position is Dawayne Wade.

On top of that, you're saying that Statistics lead you to believe that Ronnie Brewer is better than Joe Johnson??

Damn KB.... You used to provide a much better accounting of yourself.

This is just tragedy on the bulletin board.

I didn't say he was a better player. I just stated the fact that he contributes more to winning than Joe does, and it is at a much reduced cost. Let's compare the two with advanced statistics:

True Shooting Percentage - Ronnie Brewer 51.8%, Joe Johnson 51.7%

Assists Percentage - Ronnie Brewer 73.2%, Joe Johnson 46.7%

Assists Rating - Ronnie Brewer 25.90, Joe Johnson 23.91

Turn Over Rating - Ronnie Brewer 10.18, Joe Johnson 10.33

Total Rebounding Rate - Ronnie Brewer 8.6, Joe Johnson 6.9

PER - Ronnie Brewer 13.85, Joe Johnson 16.37

FTA/FGA - Ronnie Brewer 0.31, Joe Johnson 0.21

Just a few notes on these. Ronnie Brewer is not a great perimeter shooter, and Joe Johnson did have a down year from the perimeter. As far as taking shots close to the basket, 20.6% of Joe's shots came at the rim. 50% of Ronnie Brewer's came at the rim. 51% of Joe's shots came from 16 feet from the basket or longer. 41% of Ronnie's shots came from that range.

What I'm saying is that Atlanta is paying Joe Johnson $123 million to be a high volume jump shooter that does little else, and that while Ronnie Brewer isn't the scorer that Joe is, he does the little things that help teams win and at a much more palatable cost. I'm also saying that if Atlanta had signed Ronnie Brewer to a 3 year, $12.5 million contract instead of signing Joe to a 6 year, $123 million contract, the Hawks could have used the money spared to help build up the depth of the team. I still lament the fact that they didn't keep Josh Childress, who does a lot of things that contribute to winning and produced 0.123 WP/48 last year with the Suns despite not getting consistent playing time. I also think the Hawks would have had the money to bring in guys like Reggie Evans and Joey Dorsey to give the team solid interior depth, far better than Josh Powell and Jason Collins.

[sasuke]

First of all, we have very good peices for trade. We are not inflexible.

Just the other day, I read guys saying what a great player Zaza would be to trade for?

Then there's Joe, Josh, Horf, Craw, and Teague. There's also Zaza, Hinrich, Teague, and Marvin.

We are not inflexible. Anybody is tradable.

We have lots of good pieces that teams want. That is how business is done in the NBA. When have the Lakers every rebuilt from the draft? You do it with trade. However, in order to build a championship team, you have to have a plan.

Danny Ainge's plan was to get Allen, KG, and Peirce together. He was willing to give up picks and Al Jefferson.

The only way we become inflexible is when we start putting players who are not producing what we need.... on the untouchable list.

We were inflexible when it came to Marvin and Josh for the last 6 years. We are inflexible as it relates to Horf.

However ,what we need is to evaluate what they bring and where we lack and see if we should trade and how we should build.

We do have flexibility.

The question is, do we have a plan and are you ready to sacrifice.

1 - JJ isn't better than Pierce was back then.

2 - Where is our # 5 overall pick & our cap space to get our Allen?

3 - Who will be our KG that would sign the extension here & not on other big market if we give up Al?

4 - How are you going to manage realistically our cap situation so we can ad role players after the trade for our KG?

Switching our best players for other players with equal talent isn't going to do too much. We need to add talent while keeping our best players & we don't have cap space &/or attractive picks to do so. How could we do it????????

[Crank]

Another guy that didn't watch who he speaks of..

While Magic and Kareem are great.

KG and Pierce and Allen were not.

It's even a question Mark on Wade. Without Help, Wade is a first round exit.. To Joe's Hawks.

However, My point was not a elevation of Joe. My point is the fact that these players didn't win it all until they got some real help in a real system. Even Kobe missed the playoffs until he got Pau...

Winning requires having the right conditions. 1 player cannot take a team anywhere. 1 great player cannot win a championship. I'm not saying that Joe is on Magic's level. But I am saying that Joe is good enough to be considered as part of our championship puzzle. History will show that as we look back over the Hawks best players... The order will be:

1. Petit

2. Nique

3. Deke

4. Joe

5. Smitty

Until somebody else comes along.

Pierce was not great he was a good player . and so was Ray Allen . Good player multiple all stars KG was a GREAT PLAYER an all nba caliber player and was one of the top 5 players in the nba for several seasons. But Pierce hovered in between the top 15-20 in the league and Allen in the top 20-25 . KG was top ten offensively and top 5 defensively .

As I said if we could get a true top ten player that would push Joe,Al;,Josh down a notch we would be fine and they would flourish. But no role player is gonna do it .

As for Wade if we swapped Wade for Joe right now we would be considered title contenders .

You keep saying they got help but keep ignoring the fact that they were also players who brought there A games the majority of the time . We dont have anyone that does that .

Kobe brought his A game pretty much all the time and the Lakers were able to bring in Paul who brought his A game maybe 70-75% of the time that creates a formidable tandem

Joe,Al,Josh hardly ever all play well together and now are at the point where they take turns bring there A games and are at the point where they are now bringing there A games one out of every 4-5 games .

There is no help for that no lesser player can come in and help them be more consistent. Thats why the teams with those great players can add a player or two and take it to the next level its because they are starting with someone who is consistently great.

*Allen Iverson (Philadelphia) G 6-0 165 5

*Vince Carter (Toronto) F 6-6 225 5

*Tracy McGrady (Orlando) G/F 6-8 210 4

*Jermaine O’Neal (Indiana) C/F 6-11 242 3

*Ben Wallace (Detroit) C 6-9 240 2

Ron Artest (Indiana)** F 6-7 246 1

Baron Davis (New Orleans) G 6-3 223 2

Jason Kidd (New Jersey) G 6-4 212 7

Jamaal Magloire (New Orleans)** C 6-11 259 1

Kenyon Martin (New Jersey)** F 6-9 234 1

Paul Pierce (Boston) G/F 6-6 230 3

Michael Redd (Milwaukee)** G 6-6 215 1

*Kobe Bryant (L.A. Lakers) G 6-6 220 6

*Tim Duncan (San Antonio) F 7-0 260 6

*Steve Francis (Houston) G 6-3 200 3

*Kevin Garnett (Minnesota) F 6-11 240 7

*Yao Ming (Houston) C 7-6 310 2

Ray Allen (Seattle) G 6-5 205 4

Sam Cassell (Minnesota)** G 6-3 185 1

Andrei Kirilenko (Utah)** F 6-9 225 1

Brad Miller (Sacramento) C 7-0 261 2

Dirk Nowitzki (Dallas) F/C 7-0 245 3

Shaquille O’Neal (L.A. Lakers) C 7-1 340 11

Peja Stojakovic (Sacramento) F 6-10 229 3

Thats the 2004 all star game rosters

Now no one back then was saying that if you took Kmart ,Magliore, and Michael Redd and put them on the same team that somehow they would be good enough to win a title . They would win games be a second rd team but everyone knows that there best is still not on the level of a Kobe and Shaq . It doesnt mean Redd,Kmart,Magliore suck and cannot be part of a title team it simply means they cannot be your 3 best players because there A game is not as good and they cant produce it as regularly as lets say a Kobe and Shaq or a Duncan Co .

The Pistons won a title but they had a top 5 bigman in Wallace who was dominant defensively .His CONSISTENCY on the glass and defensively is what anchored those teams we simply dont get that level of consistency from anyone and we have to find someone who can give it to us .

[Diesel]

I didn't say he was a better player. I just stated the fact that he contributes more to winning than Joe does, and it is at a much reduced cost. Let's compare the two with advanced statistics:

True Shooting Percentage - Ronnie Brewer 51.8%, Joe Johnson 51.7%

Assists Percentage - Ronnie Brewer 73.2%, Joe Johnson 46.7%

Assists Rating - Ronnie Brewer 25.90, Joe Johnson 23.91

Turn Over Rating - Ronnie Brewer 10.18, Joe Johnson 10.33

Total Rebounding Rate - Ronnie Brewer 8.6, Joe Johnson 6.9

PER - Ronnie Brewer 13.85, Joe Johnson 16.37

FTA/FGA - Ronnie Brewer 0.31, Joe Johnson 0.21

Just a few notes on these. Ronnie Brewer is not a great perimeter shooter, and Joe Johnson did have a down year from the perimeter. As far as taking shots close to the basket, 20.6% of Joe's shots came at the rim. 50% of Ronnie Brewer's came at the rim. 51% of Joe's shots came from 16 feet from the basket or longer. 41% of Ronnie's shots came from that range.

What I'm saying is that Atlanta is paying Joe Johnson $123 million to be a high volume jump shooter that does little else, and that while Ronnie Brewer isn't the scorer that Joe is, he does the little things that help teams win and at a much more palatable cost. I'm also saying that if Atlanta had signed Ronnie Brewer to a 3 year, $12.5 million contract instead of signing Joe to a 6 year, $123 million contract, the Hawks could have used the money spared to help build up the depth of the team. I still lament the fact that they didn't keep Josh Childress, who does a lot of things that contribute to winning and produced 0.123 WP/48 last year with the Suns despite not getting consistent playing time. I also think the Hawks would have had the money to bring in guys like Reggie Evans and Joey Dorsey to give the team solid interior depth, far better than Josh Powell and Jason Collins.

Of Course Joe's stats will be skewed. WS take into account offensive possessions heavily. Offensive possessions is based heavily on rebounds. Joe is not a good rebounder. Nor does he get a lot of steals. However, the estimate of WS works against Joe for that particular purpose. However ,when you get out of the worlds of estimations and guesses and you actually watch the games, who contributes more to the wins for their team... Joe or Ronnie Brewer?? Anybody who can steal the ball and rebound will have a good WS no matter what he actually does for his team. For instance, Tony Allen is one of the steals leaders in the NBA. He's a jamal Crawford like dude. His WS is higher than Joes. Landry Fields is a good rebounding stealing SG, his WS is higher than Joes. However, this guy is nothing on the court.

[Diesel]

1 - JJ isn't better than Pierce was back then.

2 - Where is our # 5 overall pick & our cap space to get our Allen?

3 - Who will be our KG that would sign the extension here & not on other big market if we give up Al?

4 - How are you going to manage realistically our cap situation so we can ad role players after the trade for our KG?

Switching our best players for other players with equal talent isn't going to do too much. We need to add talent while keeping our best players & we don't have cap space &/or attractive picks to do so. How could we do it????????

1. That's debateble.

2. We have to be willing to let go some of these players who have more value than a #5 pick to get what we need.

3. See #2.

4. See #2... but more importantly, if you have a plan... you don't really need a KG. For instance, we need a big who can rebound and defend. If you add Dalembert to this team as is.... we will be in the next echelon of teams.

However, I think that we will have to formulate a plan and be willing to sacrifice if need be in order to get to the championship level.

Lastly, your thoughts on switching our best player for other players of equal value isn't going to do much..... is wrong.

We have holes in the fundamental makeup of our team. Very specifically... we have 2 PFs. Neither has a low post game (consistent). We have problems defending Bigs. We live and die by our ability to rebound. We get nothing from our Sf position. Our offensive game plan is still undefined. We lack high basketball IQ at may positions.

Having a plan means being truthful about our limitations and making moves to fix that. If we could make a lateral move like trading Horford for Brook Lopez, Andrew Bogut, or Marc Gasol you don't think we'd be better? If we could get a Sf like Stephen Jackson, M. Pietrus, or Trevor Ariza. You don't think we'd be better?

We just have to be willing to look deep into the mirror and make the hard choice while the window is still open.

[Diesel]

Now no one back then was saying that if you took Kmart ,Magliore, and Michael Redd and put them on the same team that somehow they would be good enough to win a title . They would win games be a second rd team but everyone knows that there best is still not on the level of a Kobe and Shaq . It doesnt mean Redd,Kmart,Magliore suck and cannot be part of a title team it simply means they cannot be your 3 best players because there A game is not as good and they cant produce it as regularly as lets say a Kobe and Shaq or a Duncan Co .

The Pistons won a title but they had a top 5 bigman in Wallace who was dominant defensively .His CONSISTENCY on the glass and defensively is what anchored those teams we simply dont get that level of consistency from anyone and we have to find someone who can give it to us .

Here's the deal though... You don't know until you put Kmart, Magloire, and Redd on a team and it's going to matter who the PG and coach are.

In basketball, the things that matter the most:

1. Rebounding.

2. PG

3. Coaching

4. Defensive ability.

5. Offensive ability.

People thought that Houston won 2 times because Hakeem was so great. It wasn't about Hakeem. It was about the team that surrounded Hakeem and Hakeem. They covered every skillset that was necessary and they had good coaching. The same with the Pistons. It's not all about Ben Wallace. The missing piece was Rasheed Wallace who gave them an inside/outside presence and gave defenses fits on the matchup. Not to mention the things that Billups could do to a defense.

THAT'S TEAM BASKETBALL.

It's not an individual game. Yet, we're looking at our individuals saying why didn't they make us win?

LOOK AT THE TEAM...

Even as we improve the team, we still have flaws.

It's sad that Hawks fans would cry about the loss of our 5th OG type when we got the closest thing to a pure PG that we have had since Mookie. It tells me that our fanbase doesn't understand team building. There are going to be 78 other guys like the one who shall remain unmentioned... What we have to do is take our peices and put the puzzle together and figure out what piece is missing. Now that we have some good answers at PG, it's time for a 5. A real 5..

[Wretch]

Here's the deal though... You don't know until you put Kmart, Magloire, and Redd on a team and it's going to matter who the PG and coach are.

In basketball, the things that matter the most:

1. Rebounding.

2. PG

3. Coaching

4. Defensive ability.

5. Offensive ability.

People thought that Houston won 2 times because Hakeem was so great. It wasn't about Hakeem. It was about the team that surrounded Hakeem and Hakeem. They covered every skillset that was necessary and they had good coaching. The same with the Pistons. It's not all about Ben Wallace. The missing piece was Rasheed Wallace who gave them an inside/outside presence and gave defenses fits on the matchup. Not to mention the things that Billups could do to a defense.

THAT'S TEAM BASKETBALL.

It's not an individual game. Yet, we're looking at our individuals saying why didn't they make us win?

LOOK AT THE TEAM...

Even as we improve the team, we still have flaws.

It's sad that Hawks fans would cry about the loss of our 5th OG type when we got the closest thing to a pure PG that we have had since Mookie. It tells me that our fanbase doesn't understand team building. There are going to be 78 other guys like the one who shall remain unmentioned... What we have to do is take our peices and put the puzzle together and figure out what piece is missing. Now that we have some good answers at PG, it's time for a 5. A real 5..

1. Offensive ability.

2. Rebounding.

3. Defensive ability.

4. Coaching

5. PG

I think you have a good list, but I don't agree with the priorities. Everyone has their favorite part of the game, but you can't win if you can't score. It is hard enough to beat tough, grinding, playoff defense...and you're going to attack that with two guys that have disappeared (Joe, Al), one guy that is a TERRIBLE jump shooter (Josh), and another who is a streaking 1 on 1 player (Crawford). Not a good formula. People can put the light on a lot of different reasons why teams reach the finals/ECFs, but it starts with a real player. A guy that goes out there and gets it. We don't have said player.

Like it or not, the common thread amongst contending teams is a a guy that can put the ball in the basket. They start out as lottery picks - SOMEBODY'S lottery pick and they are not taken because they rebound and defend. It is ALL about their potential to lead a team offensively. Say what you want, but these players are the guys that are THE MOST IMPORTANT players on the court. You build around them and years later you have a complete team, but it all starts with a guy that can put the ball in the basket. I don't see how anybody can argue with that.

The problem is that Joe has not been able to perform at that level. Seriously, you can't argue with the stats or the results. When he first got here, he was flying under the radar and we made some great progress. Since then, teams have learned to play him. Yes, the problem with that is our offensive plan of attack (isoJoe), but still...Joe has been missing shots left and right. His FG% has fallen, his 3pt% is even worse...and when you compare him to the other "stars" who are leading their teams, there is a significant dropoff. He's a very good player, but he's just not enough as a #1 option. He's consistently GOOD. But the better players in the league, the true #1 options are consistently GREAT. When you're in a tight game, in a crucial 3-5 minute stretch where the games are really decided, GREAT will trump GOOD and DRose/Dwade/LBJ/KIobe/Dirk/Durant will win that duel vs. Joe every single time.

What will you do with the ball once you rebound it if you don't have guys that can put it in the basket?

You get a stop? Then what? You can't get beyond the athletic defense of the Heat. You can't get past the grimy, hands on defense of the Celtics. You can't get the ball over Howard or Chanlder.

You have a great coach that has a great ball movement scheme, but none of your guys are physically capable of hitting the shots.

You have a great PG, but who is he getting the ball to?

People keep pointing at the Pistons as this model for team basketball and a starless team. They talk about their defense so much, and rightly so, but they talk about their defense so much that people forget they had some VERY capable scorers on that team.

Chauncey vs Teague, give it to Chauncey. We'll see about Teague in a few years. Chauncey was a floor general, established penetrator, and CLUTCH shooter.

Rip vs. Joe. Rip is probably one of the most underrated players of recent times. He was deadly midrange shooter and decent from downtown. More importantly, he had the speed and stamina of a horse and ran around so much that his offensive game wore opponents down. Whereas Joe is big and tough to guard in the lane, it's a wash when you consider how much Rip ran around. This matchup is even, or Rip is just a shade below Joe.

Tyshawn vs. Marvin. I'll let you analyze that one.

Rasheed vs. Smoove. Defensively, there is no comparison. Josh changes the game and has that potential. Offensively, Rasheed is in another category and is no slouch defensively. Much like Rip though, Sheed's offense is underrated. The pistons didn't have a guy putting up a bunch of shots. They had four guys who were all nearly as capable, if not JUST AS CAPABLE, as Joe at hitting mid range/long distance shots.

Big Ben vs. Al. Al's offensive production doesn't compare to the impact that Ben had on the glass and defensively.

This team ran a system. Honestly, that system sacrificed the individual capabilities of each player to make the overall product much better. They were much better than their stats, but they worked within a system. In their primes, the only player in that starting five that I wouldn't take hands down over Joe in his prime is Tyshawn. Conversely, there isn't a player in that starting 5 that I would take over Kobe, LeBron, DWade, KG, Pierce, Durant, Shaq, Reggie, Hakeem Ewing, Barkley, Jordan, Bird, Dirk, DRose, or any of the other "star" players who have lead their teams past the 2nd round.

We have a lot of issues, yes. And I like Joe, but as our #1 option he has not shown that he can be the centerpiece of a conference finals/finals caliber team. We either need another #1 just as capable, along with a host of guys stepping up, or we need to reconsider the core of this team - Smoove, Al, and yes...Joe.

Edited May 28, 2011 by Wretch

[QuantumHawkz]

For crying out loud! The man had TWO surgeries this year, and one of them was on his shooting elbow. Joe ( just like the whole team) had an injury plagued season. It's that simple.We have to remember that the Hawks was the healthiest team in the NBA last year. So that's it. Joe is going to come back and get his revenge, then "the Joe Johnson band wagon" will be full once more.AND I DON'T CARE ABOUT HIS CONTRACT.We all can sit and say we know what( the ASG) their going or not going to do all we want, but the FACT is WE don't. Will they spend or not WE don't know. Joe is WILL be fine.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

(( clapping in a slow, sarcastic kind of way ))

Good post. At least you put in some thought and got a few of the facts straight. It's just too bad there are gaping holes in your post. It's a good post though. And I won't stoop to your level with the name calling, even though it's hilarious.

Now . . let's see if I can add some TRUTH to your post.

North, do you understand why your reasoning is complete and utter garbage? Let me tell you, you are arguing on the premise that had Joe left Atlanta it would have been because Sund and the ASG liked Jamal more or just fine enough to replace Joe........You are f***ing kidding me, this is your most plausible scenario? A scenario that omits the fact that Jamal's contract has even as I'm typing this yet to expire? This is your thesis for your boogie man full of s*** strawman argument that had JJ walked the team would have thrown an even stupider contract at Jamal........a year before it even expired. Pathetic really that you tried to rationalize it away by saying "well they did it with Al so of course they'd do it with Jamal." So again, the one player heading into an uncertain future due to the CBA beats the fact that Josh Smith, Josh Chilldress, Marvin Williams, Mike Bibby, Zaza Pachulia, Flip Murray, Solomon Jones and oh Joe Johnson have all gone into the summer of the end of their contracts without extensions.... but oh they did it for Al so you just know Jamal was next!!!!!!!!! Because that's just the trend that the ASG has demonstrated...lol.

Unfortunately for you sir, this is DEAD WRONG.

The ASG DID offer an extension to JJ before the final year of his deal. But he turned down the extension. And it's funny that he turned down the very amount that I suggested they might offer Jamal, if JJ wasn't in the mix ( 4 years - 60 million ).

C to C here are the real facts:

Johnson - offered an extension before the start of his final year . . but turned it down to become an unrestricted free agent

Horford - offered an extension before the start of his restrictive free agent year . . and he re-signed.

Smith - offered a 5 year - 45 million dollar extension in the year before he became a restricted free agent, but turned it down to test the market the next year, just like JJ did. ( Read down to the "Rumor and Innuendo" section of that listing on Hoopinion )

So now do you see the REAL pattern developing? If the ASG thought a guy was an essential piece to the puzzle, they tried to lock him up before he hit the market. In the case of JJ and Smith, they both turned down the extensions, and ONLY hit the market the next summer because of that.

So knowing this, if there is no Joe Johnson in the mix in Atlanta, would the ASG view Jamal as being an essential player, seeing that he just won the 6th Man of the Year Award and was an integral part of us winning 53 games in 2009 - 10? Don't react emotionally to this statement with some cussing tirade.

Just think about it.

Rationally think about it.

Review what they did when they tried to lock in Johnson, Horford, and Smith, and ask yourself . . . would they do the same with Jamal Crawford? Again . . don't respond emotionally . . respond with reason.

Now what about the other players?

Jamal - not offered an extension because Horford was the priority to be extended, and because we'd re-signed JJ . . and possibly because we had his young clone in "that dude in Washington". I don't think he wasn't offered the extension because they didn't want him back in the mix. I do think they wanted Jamal back, especially if there was no Joe Johnson here.

Childress - given an extension when he became a restricted free agent, but he turned it down. The extension was said by Sund to be a little over the MLE ( which was $5.5 mill ). Chill thought that was too low. He then got the 3 year - 20 mill deal in which he'd basically get the entire 20 mill tax free, so he left.

Marvin - given an extension when he became a restricted free agent, and he accepted the 5 year - 37.5 to 40 million dollar deal. He was NOT unrestricted. And unlike what they did with Smith, they didn't let the "marketplace" determine Marvin's value, which was a huge mistake, if they were going to re-sign him at an 8 mill price tag anyway. There was very little real talk of anybody even wanting Marvin.

Bibby - re-signed once his contract ended. The ASG decides to retain the services of Bibby for 3 years, and trade for Jamal Crawford, instead of letting Acie Law have a legit shot at running the Hawks at PG. Without those two moves, we would've been well under the cap and could've made a legitimate move to add Andre Miller to this roster, if they didn't believe in Acie. I remember all of the talk on here about letting Bibby's deal expire, and how we'd have cap space to do some things. But what we did, was re-sign everybody.

Zaza - re-signed once his contract ended. Spurs were said to be interested, but never seriously pursued him.

So let's move past your "plausible" scenario where the ASG would have extended Jamal for whatever years 60 mil before they even had to despite uhhhhhhhhhhhhm

Without Joe and with the elimination of Chills' cap hold the team would of had 47 mil in committed salary to 8 players, add the min roster charge capholds and the charge for our pick that brought the team's salary commitment's to 51.2 mil. the cap is at 58mil that means that we would of had 6.8 mil under the soft cap to spend.

OK . . . so we'd have 6.8 million instead of the 4 million that I said. OK.

I wonder what two way two guard we could of afforded for that amount hmmmmmm

oh I know! Wesley Matthews at 5.7 mil! In his rookie year he put up a per36 of 13.7ppg 2.2apg and 3.4rpg on 48% shooting 38% from three and 12.3 PER as just a rookie 4th option. In his 2nd year where he had to replace Brandon Roy in the starting lineup and had his role bumped up to being at worst the 2nd or 3rd option he averaged 17ppg with the same assist and rebound numbers on 45% shooting and 40% from 3 15.5 PER. Do you know Joe's Per36 in his contract year before he signed with ATL? 15.6ppg 3.2apg and 4.7rebounds 15.1 PER. Oh yea, future star in the making numbers right there... oh whats that? You think maybe playing 40+minutes a night inflated his stats? Yea I think so too.

Good research, and a good player to get as a complimentary player.

Wesley Matthews is what I wish Marvin was. A good catch and shoot 3-point specialist type guy who can finish out on the break. He isn't going to create his own offense off the dribble much, but he can knock down open shots. Which means that he isn't a 2-way guard. He's a good spot up shooter. But he isn't creating much offense off the dribble for himself, seeing that he has 70% of his offense created for him. Wes is a good system player though. If Marvin could do what he does, especially from a catch and shoot standpoint, there would be little complaints about the guy.

Having said that . . Wesley is no Joe Johnson of 04 - 05. JJ was a far more versatile offensive player back then that Wesley is now. And that's why JJ was a star in the making back then. Matter of fact, that is why shot creators usually make more out on the open market, than spot up shooters. The ability to create and make your own shot in the NBA usually gets you paid.

JJ wasn't just a 3 point shooter back then. The dude could handle the rock, set people up, and get his own shot. That's also the reason why JJ was in high demand when he was a restricted free agent. Cleveland had a chance to pull the trigger and get JJ, but they opted for Larry Hughes, a guy who had just had a huge year in Washington, after they failed to woo Ray Allen and Michael Redd to Cleveland . Having said that, Wesley is nice role player though. Definitely a guy the Hawks could use on this team. I'd replace him with Marvin in a heartbeat and move JJ to the 3.

Oh . . one more thing. The reason why Portland was able to secure Wesley, was because they not only offered him the full MLE, they frontloaded Wesley's contract in the first year ( 9.2 million ). So even with him, the question would've been if the ASG would've payed Wesley Matthews 9+ million right from the jump, to acquire his services. If they thought he was the "new JJ", then probably yeah. If not, they would've looked to someone else.

The team could have gone into the 2010-11 season had Joe left with a SG troika of Matthews, Jamal and Namesake Jr. I think that's not a bad rotation especially knowing now that Teague and Namesake Jr. can score the ball so that wouldn't have been an issue. Of course this doesn't take into consideration whether or not we received a partial TPE for a Joe sign and trade or possibly even a prospect back like say a Wilson Chandler (16.5points, 6.1rebounds, 1.7 assists Per36, 450fg% 350% from 3, 13.7 PER last season) but even if we had struck out completely in free agency we still would of had Jamal and Jr. as a contingency at the 2 while still leaving space to facilitate a trade between Jamal's and Mo's expiring.

This lineup would've still forced Jamal to be "the man". I mean, unless you're starting Matthews over Jamal, which would have seen the Hawks lineup look like this

PG - Bibby ( or Hinrich, if the trade is made )

G - Matthews

F - Wilson Chandler

PF - Smith

C - Horford

G - Teague

G - Jamal

F - Marvin

F - Powell

C - Zaza

G - Jordan

C - Collins

Rational thinking C to C . . . not emotional.

Bibby would've still been in that lineup at the beginning of the year. Jamal would've still come in the game to play the point. Teague would've still been buried on the bench, along with Jordan. Remember . . Drew had no intention to use Jordan much this season, and Teague was somehow not the backup PG, Jamal was. LOL . . if you add Matthews to this lineup, essentially replacing JJ, what makes you think Drew coaches the team any different? And if you still make the Hinrich trade, that means that Jordan is gone. If you don't make the trade, Bibby is still here, with Teague ( hopefully ) starting.

That team MIGHT make the playoffs as a 6 - 8th seed and have 36 - 42 wins. But with the lack of shot creators on the team, I don't know if we get past Orlando in the First round. It's all speculation though.

As for 2011-12, omitting, of course, your stupidity that Jamal would have been resigned at all costs to a 60 mil contract, the team would have been sitting once again at 48.5 mil and that's thanks to Kirkland's larger deal than Bibby's to 9 players. Again between our trade assets, cap space and MLE wings available on the market due to not many teams having capspace and their own teams having their own commitments (J.R. Smith and Nick Young, both players who's career per36 averages positively s*** on Joe's contract year but I'll add their career highs just for fun Young: 20 points, 3 rebounds 2 assists 14.5 PER, Smith: 23points, 4 rebounds 3 assists 18 PER ) we would have been in the position to replace him adequately from outside and within.

As previously stated, the ASG has always offered contract extensions to guys that they deemed to be essential to the team. Without JJ in the mix, Jamal would've become essential to the team ( unless he flat out sucked ). Then, in your scenario, you leave Jamal open to be had by someone else, and focus on Nick Young ( a restricted free agent ) and JR Smith ( an unrestricted free agent ).

So . . once again, without emotion . . what happens if Washington matches any offer sheet for Young, and JR Smith doesn't even want to come to ATL? And worse . . if those two things happen, what happens if Jamal is offered something ridiculous by a team like New Jersey, and he jumps on that before the Hawks can counter?

At that point, this is your team

PG - Teague

G - Hinrich

F - Marvin

F - Smith

C - Horford

C - Zaza

Because of the Bibby/Jordan/Evans for Hinrich deal, we don't even have a 1st round pick. And everybody else who is currently on the team, would all be unrestricted free agents. So now we're in a situation in which we're hoping guys will want to come here and play . . or we have to overpay for marginal players to get them to come here ( see Speedy Claxton . . because that's the exact scenario we found ourselves in that year. Quality guys like Sam Cassell didn't want to play here, so we had to settle for the worse of the best of the mediocre. )

Maybe with all of that "cap space", you can add other quality players to this team . . if they want to come to Atlanta.

I think I get it now though. Without JJ in the mix, you're simply content with losing for a while, if it will make us better in the long run. It's just that quality free agents have historically not flocked to ATL. But who cares . . as long as we have "cap space", we're good. LOL . . tell that to Cleveland.

As for Solo, *sigh* North, which contract amount gives a team that is skirting the lux tax more flexibility 825K (that's thousands by the way) or 1.5 million for 2 years no less?

So again, North. Keep spewing the garbage "most plausible" scenario that you speak of and continue to beguile me with stories that Joe Johnson had demonstrated so much in Phoenix that no other young wing has managed to duplicate and I will continue to say that you are clearly just full of s***, good night.

(( sigh )) is right. Because what you're overlooking is that we didn't have to sign those scrubs in the first place. Josh Powell and Etan Thomas were complete wastes of signage. Solo = Powell + Etan . . in both salary and in ability. And Solo isn't anything to write home about either. It's just that those other 2 are garbage.

And (( sigh )) again . . because Sund didn't have to bring in Damien Wilkins either. That was the time in which Jordan should've gotten increased PT at the 2, to compensate for JJ's absence. Instead, this team goes out and gets Damien Wilkins. He had flashes of good games, but for the most part, that experiment not only failed, it didn't even give us a legit look at Jordan.

Nobody told this ownership group and GM to go out and get us the bottom of the barrel type players. They may have been better of simply paying one guy 2 mill a year, than to pay 2 guys less than a million. But it's not just the money, it's the players that they bring in here. It's the lack of ability to properly evaluate the types of role players that we need, that has us perennially having a horrible bench. Heck, even buying out Pape Sy is a head scratching move. The team is so concerned about money, but they pay 500K to bring Sy to the Hawks so that he can develop in practice and in the D-League?

But the other thing may simply be that some of the guys that the ASG targeted, just didn't want to come here. At that point, maybe you have no choice but to dig in the bottom of the garbage can, and get whomever you can get.

Your serve.

[Crank]

Here's the deal though... You don't know until you put Kmart, Magloire, and Redd on a team and it's going to matter who the PG and coach are.

In basketball, the things that matter the most:

1. Rebounding.

2. PG

3. Coaching

4. Defensive ability.

5. Offensive ability.

People thought that Houston won 2 times because Hakeem was so great. It wasn't about Hakeem. It was about the team that surrounded Hakeem and Hakeem. They covered every skillset that was necessary and they had good coaching. The same with the Pistons. It's not all about Ben Wallace. The missing piece was Rasheed Wallace who gave them an inside/outside presence and gave defenses fits on the matchup. Not to mention the things that Billups could do to a defense.

THAT'S TEAM BASKETBALL.

It's not an individual game. Yet, we're looking at our individuals saying why didn't they make us win?

LOOK AT THE TEAM...

Even as we improve the team, we still have flaws.

It's sad that Hawks fans would cry about the loss of our 5th OG type when we got the closest thing to a pure PG that we have had since Mookie. It tells me that our fanbase doesn't understand team building. There are going to be 78 other guys like the one who shall remain unmentioned... What we have to do is take our peices and put the puzzle together and figure out what piece is missing. Now that we have some good answers at PG, it's time for a 5. A real 5..

You dont need to know who the coach is when dealing Kmart,Magliore and Redd . You know they are good players but you also know you dont make them the alpha but know they would be great playing next to someone who is.

woah !! you have basically dug this trench around your comments trying to rewrite history to make it fit your claims Diesel .

Hakeem was the defensive player of the year and league MVP . Why dont you list the number of awards that Elie ,Kenny,Thorpe,Maxwell have won ?

Big Ben was defensive player of the year

You are talking about two of the best defensive bigs ever who were as consistent as they come . Good organizations dont build a team around inconsistency . Do you really think we have anyone who plays with the effort and production of those two ?

When your best players cant show up and bring there A games consistently well then its time to find new best players not more roles players who are dependent upon those best players who dont show up consistently.

You are talking about a very bad combination to be so attached too .

A - players you know arent the elite of the league

B- players who dont consistently play at a high level .

Kobe is an A

Joe is a B

fine we all know you dont need a team full of A's to win the title

But Kobe on most nights is giving consistently an "A" effort and production

while Joe on most nights is giving you a "C" with some "D" and a few "B" even having an "A" or two throughout the year.

How do you build a consistent team when your best players dont consistently give you there best ? same can be said for Josh and AL

Those 3 havent played consistently well together in quite some time .

Thats why its time to reevaluate this core and try and get someone at any position that can give us a "B" allowing us to have someone in place to even out the inconsistency of the other two . So instead of having then struggle with the burden of trying to give us a B we can further develop them into being consistent "C' instead of erratic "B' that the entire team depends on

[TheNorthCydeRises]

I didn't say he was a better player. I just stated the fact that he contributes more to winning than Joe does, and it is at a much reduced cost. Let's compare the two with advanced statistics:

True Shooting Percentage - Ronnie Brewer 51.8%, Joe Johnson 51.7%

Assists Percentage - Ronnie Brewer 73.2%, Joe Johnson 46.7%

Assists Rating - Ronnie Brewer 25.90, Joe Johnson 23.91

Turn Over Rating - Ronnie Brewer 10.18, Joe Johnson 10.33

Total Rebounding Rate - Ronnie Brewer 8.6, Joe Johnson 6.9

PER - Ronnie Brewer 13.85, Joe Johnson 16.37

FTA/FGA - Ronnie Brewer 0.31, Joe Johnson 0.21

Just a few notes on these. Ronnie Brewer is not a great perimeter shooter, and Joe Johnson did have a down year from the perimeter. As far as taking shots close to the basket, 20.6% of Joe's shots came at the rim. 50% of Ronnie Brewer's came at the rim. 51% of Joe's shots came from 16 feet from the basket or longer. 41% of Ronnie's shots came from that range.

What I'm saying is that Atlanta is paying Joe Johnson $123 million to be a high volume jump shooter that does little else, and that while Ronnie Brewer isn't the scorer that Joe is, he does the little things that help teams win and at a much more palatable cost. I'm also saying that if Atlanta had signed Ronnie Brewer to a 3 year, $12.5 million contract instead of signing Joe to a 6 year, $123 million contract, the Hawks could have used the money spared to help build up the depth of the team. I still lament the fact that they didn't keep Josh Childress, who does a lot of things that contribute to winning and produced 0.123 WP/48 last year with the Suns despite not getting consistent playing time. I also think the Hawks would have had the money to bring in guys like Reggie Evans and Joey Dorsey to give the team solid interior depth, far better than Josh Powell and Jason Collins.

Come on KB. There is no way that if Ronnie Brewer was asked to do all that JJ does here, that his numbers would be close to what they are now. Essentially, put Brewer on a team in which he's the best ( or 2nd or 3rd best player ) . . tell him to try to score 20 ppg . . create for others to the tune of 5 assists a game . . and take the majority of late game shots, and Brewer would crash and burn like a meteorite hitting Earth.

I expect more from you man. You're comparing a role player who is only asked to play tremendous defense, to a guy who is asked to do just about everything under the sun. There's a reason why players like JJ get paid like they do ( or even overpaid ) . . while a guy like Brewer will NEVER see that type of money ever.

When is the last time Brewer has been doubled?

Has he ever been doubled in his entire career?

Is Brewer asked to play and guard 3 positions at times?

Is Brewer in the game at the end of games, to help take some of the offensive burden off of D-Rose?

73% of Ronnie's made FGs came via assists, which means he has to be set up to score. Only 47% of JJ's made FGs came via assists.

Brewer's win score is a direct result of him playing with a great defensive unit that limits the production of the opponent. Everybody on the Bulls, with the exception of Rose and Korver, has a higher defensive win score than they do an offensive win score. That's almost unheard of. That's 2003 Detroit Piston like.

That same win score stat says that Marvin contributed more to winning, than Jamal Crawford this year. Who in the hell is going to believe that, after watching Marvin this year? Jamal reverted back to what he usually is as a player, but Invisible Marvin contributed more to winning than Jamal did this year?

I mean damn . . at least compare JJ to a guy who has a similar role, like an Eric Gordon. Don't compare him to Ronnie friggin Brewer, and try to spin that like he contributes to winning more than JJ does. Brewer simply benefits from not having to be a go to scorer on offense, and plays with a great defensive unit.

[Plainview1981]

You all who say that you want to trade Joe because he's not a #1 option..

let me ask.

What #1 option will you trade him for?

You bringing back Kobe?

You bringing back Wade?

I really am interested in knowing how you plan to replace our #1 option with the standards that you have set for the #1 option?

According to what I'm reading from you all.. he has to be a guy who can lead us to a championship. (I have seen this more than 1 time).

Since we're in this game to win the championship...

What #1 are you eying with Joe's contract.

Or do you think we don't need a #1?

Is really simple...

Share with us your #1 option plan... or say... We don't need a #1 option!

Joe Johnson is on the decline. That's not an opinion either. His number are down across the board...

-Scoring

-Assists

-Rebounds

-Free throw attempts

-Shooting percentages

I think that if he stays, he needs to be moved to SF... He is slowing down and he struggles to get by SG's at this point. Watching him trying to go one on one is painful most of the time because most of the time he can't get by quicker SG's... So, he has to shoot over his man, but the problem is that his shot is getting more and more inaccurate by the season. This season, he reminded me a lot of Smitty in his last season with the Hawks when he could just no longer score at the 20PPG clip and many nights struggled to score more than 10-13 points. JJ is at that stage. But I think moving him to SF where he isn't being guarded by as many quicker players might help some.

[MaceCase]

So North, in your oh so rational mind you show examples of where the ASG lowballed our key free agents before they hit the market yet rationally they would have offered the same contract they offered the greater Joe Johnson to Jamal.....they wouldn't have adjusted to the particular player from there? Really? If that's their thinking how come they didn't throw that same 60 mil contract at Al seeing as they set the trend of just passing the buck on extensions and Al was the priority. Now rationally answer how come Jamal has still yet to be extended or offered one especially now that we know for damn sure his replacement is no longer on the roster and we don't even have a 1st to try and address that? You mentioned that he's unrestricted so that means he could negotiate an extension at any time up until July 1st, we did just see his former teammate ZBo receive an extension in the midst of his 1st round playoff series after all.

You then go at Wes Matthews who is in his second year and a two way player because he can score and defend at a near elite level thus what got him starting on a Jerry Sloan coached team as a rookie. He's now not worthwhile and has no place on a roster with elite passing big men, shot creating guards (yea Jamal and Jeffrey are decent in this regard) and a motion based offense because there's no way to work in a player that is efficient scoring around screens and curls. You keep comparing him to Marv, what you think he just stands at the corner 3 all night to get that scoring average? JJ showed more of an ability to create his shot but was very inefficient until Nash arrived and assisted him more at 50%. So like I said he wasn't anything special until his contract year. A signing bonus that pushes a deal out to 9 mil is still far less of an investment in a player like Matthews than paying the 20 mil we originally gave Joe in addition to his current 16 mil on crazy escalations. Matthews cap hit would have still been a MLE deal meaning he fit our cap.

Amazing that you listed a possible lineup of:

Bibby-Teague

Matthews-Jamal-Jordan

Chandler-Marvin-Mo

Smoove-scrub

Horf-Zaza-scrub

Without any mention of how that team's depth blows out the water anything the Hawks have ever had or ever will have. That is the definition of a balanced roster and seeing as we just saw a similar Denver squad tear the league a new one playing better ball without a better player than JJ than they did with him by utilizing balanced scoring rather than a singular ball stopper you don't see the Hawks being able to do the same with that talent? No you are going to your old faithful boogie man argument that Jamal would of been forced to replace JJ and the horrors of that possibility. You don't think that it would have been a rational decision by the coach and management to change the philosophy of the team? Bibby is a vet PG that works off of Joe, we brought in Kirkland because he is a vet PG that can work off Joe and play defense. If Joe left the team and we acquired two much younger players in his stead you don't think it would have been a rational decision by the team to develop said youth more seeing as we are no longer the same team trying to improve or maintain it's wins but rather one that was taking a step back to reassess it's brand new future? Being that the team is no longer all in with a highly paid older veteran don't you think they wouldn't feel the need to fill out the roster and trade for older vets but rather try to identify more youth and even move the remaining old vets on the roster for more youth rather than vice versa? You keep bringing up Solo but 1) he got overpaid 2) Giving the investment we had around Joe and by Sund's words himself the team was now in win now mode and no longer had the time or luxury to bring up too many young players but rather preferred vets who presumably could perform their roles. All of these bums you want to talk ba about well their being here is a result of Joe. Bibby extension, Jamal trade, Hinrich trade, Jordan and Jeff being glued to the bench are all extensions of the team surrounding it's highest paid vet with "help".

See that's your problem North and why I call your rationalizations garbage because you have only picked one doomsday scenario and have tried to pitch it as if it's the "most plausible" if not the only possible outcome had Joe left. It took me literally 3 minutes to look at Sham and B-R to find salaries and indetify various plausible scenarios and look closer at players I had literally just picked off the top of my head. I'm sure a professional NBA GM could invest 6 minutes of his actually paid time to do better. You want to rationalize your thinking by going to your boogie man argument over Jamal and downright stating that the team would continue like business as usual without Joe when the truth is right there in front of every sensible fan that has a bad taste about this franchise, the Hawks are trying to build around Joe Johnson as if he's Kobe frickin Bryant. Last I checked Al, Smoove, Marvin, Jeffrey, Namesake Jr., Solo... are all under 25. There's no rush to milk them of every dime before their window closes, there's no need to surround them with vets with zero potential, there's no need to let some of them go, trade some away or glue the rest on the bench in favor of an older guy......all these moves are done to supplement a mediocre star and continue to reap the small revenues of a mediocre team rather than take a step back or a cash hit to actually get an opportunity at a contenders window. Why would all things remain the same once this catalyst is gone? Answer rationally, not emotionally.

[Diesel]

Joe Johnson is on the decline. That's not an opinion either. His number are down across the board...

-Scoring

-Assists

-Rebounds

-Free throw attempts

-Shooting percentages

I think that if he stays, he needs to be moved to SF... He is slowing down and he struggles to get by SG's at this point. Watching him trying to go one on one is painful most of the time because most of the time he can't get by quicker SG's... So, he has to shoot over his man, but the problem is that his shot is getting more and more inaccurate by the season. This season, he reminded me a lot of Smitty in his last season with the Hawks when he could just no longer score at the 20PPG clip and many nights struggled to score more than 10-13 points. JJ is at that stage. But I think moving him to SF where he isn't being guarded by as many quicker players might help some.

I think to say Joe is on the decline is to ignore the situation.

Joe had his best playoff as a Hawk.

He had surgery on his shooting elbow and came back earlier.

He had a new coach with a new offense that took the ball out of his hands.

Now, let's look at your statement again..

"Joe is on the Decline".

Is that a fact?

His playoffs suggest that Joe Struggled through the year because of all the factors listed but when the playoffs showed up, so did Joe.

I wouldn't callthat a decline.

[Diesel]

You dont need to know who the coach is when dealing Kmart,Magliore and Redd . You know they are good players but you also know you dont make them the alpha but know they would be great playing next to someone who is.

woah !! you have basically dug this trench around your comments trying to rewrite history to make it fit your claims Diesel .

Hakeem was the defensive player of the year and league MVP . Why dont you list the number of awards that Elie ,Kenny,Thorpe,Maxwell have won ?

Big Ben was defensive player of the year

You are talking about two of the best defensive bigs ever who were as consistent as they come . Good organizations dont build a team around inconsistency . Do you really think we have anyone who plays with the effort and production of those two ?

When your best players cant show up and bring there A games consistently well then its time to find new best players not more roles players who are dependent upon those best players who dont show up consistently.

You are talking about a very bad combination to be so attached too .

A - players you know arent the elite of the league

B- players who dont consistently play at a high level .

Kobe is an A

Joe is a B

fine we all know you dont need a team full of A's to win the title

But Kobe on most nights is giving consistently an "A" effort and production

while Joe on most nights is giving you a "C" with some "D" and a few "B" even having an "A" or two throughout the year.

How do you build a consistent team when your best players dont consistently give you there best ? same can be said for Josh and AL

Those 3 havent played consistently well together in quite some time .

Thats why its time to reevaluate this core and try and get someone at any position that can give us a "B" allowing us to have someone in place to even out the inconsistency of the other two . So instead of having then struggle with the burden of trying to give us a B we can further develop them into being consistent "C' instead of erratic "B' that the entire team depends on

Crank, I don't know what in the blue hell you're talking about.

1st, if you don't think Coaching matters... Give any great team in history BOB WEISS or LON KRUGER as coach and see what happens.

2nd. If you build a team with Hakeem as C and put just anybody around him... he will not win diddly. Why do you think Hakeem only has 2 rings? Hell, they loss cassell and came back with Barkley and Pippen... Couldn't win. Why couldn't they win Crank?? I thought the formula was easy. Add hakeem and get Championship? On that team Hakeem had 4 count them. 4 of the top 50 players of all time.... Couldn't win.

Already boasting two of the game's finest players in Hakeem Olajuwon and Clyde Drexler, the Houston Rockets entered the 1997 season with a new weapon, forward Charles Barkley, acquired in an offseason trade with the Phoenix Suns in exchange for Sam Cassell, Chucky Brown, Mark Bryant and Robert Horry.

Barkley, Olajuwon and Drexler were each named among the 50 Greatest Players in NBA History prior to the season. They spent the season backing it up, leading the Rockets to a 57-25 record and a trip to the Western Conference Finals.

Barkley averaged 19.2 points and 13.5 rebounds and injected some fresh life into the Rockets. In his very first game as a Rocket, Barkley collected an NBA season-high 33 rebounds against his former team, the Phoenix Suns. Olajuwon was his splendid self, finishing seventh in the league in scoring (23.2 ppg), 17th in rebounding (9.2 rpg) and eighth in blocks (2.22 bpg). Drexler enjoyed another solid all-around season, with 18.0 points, 6.0 rebounds and 5.7 assists per game. On November 24, Drexler surpassed the 20,000-point barrier, joining Olajuwon and Barkley in that exclusive club.

In all, the Rockets set or tied 32 franchise records and amassed a franchise-best 27 road wins en route to posting their 13th consecutive non-losing season. And they achieved these goals without relying entirely on "The Big Three."

Rookie Matt Maloney, the only NBA first-year player to start all 82 games, successfully manned the point. Unheralded Mario Elie finished among the league leaders in three-point percentage (.420) and provided tenacity on defense. Free agent signees Kevin Willis, Sedale Threatt and Eddie Johnson provided depth and experience off the bench.

That depth helped carry the Rockets far in the playoffs. Houston swept Minnesota in the First Round and then survived a seven-game battle with the Seattle SuperSonics, earning the right to play Utah in the Conference Finals. After the Jazz won the first two games, it was Johnson who provided the heroics for Houston with 31 points off the bench to win Game 3, and a buzzer-beating three-pointer in Game 4 to even the series at 2-2. The Jazz, however, took the next two games to deny the Rockets a chance at their third title of the '90s.

What happened???

You said to mention the awards that Kenny, Robert Horry, etc got??? How about we ask Charles Barkley What Kenny, Robert, etc got that he doesn't?

We can do the same thing with Ben Wallace in Chicago and Cleveland.

Just because a guy plays consistently doesn't mean that he will win a championship.

Let's ask Karl Malone, John Stockton, and Gary Payton about how playing consistently leads you to championships?

Those are three of the most consistent guys ever. EVER. No rings.

Winning a ring is about everything being right at the right time. Not about one player's consistency.

Try Again Crank!