Can the Hawks win a title with JJ as the #1 guy?

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Where did i put Joe Johnson in the same category with Russell Paul, Iverson and Thomas.

Let me recap this for you.

I asked you to define Elite player.. Since that is your new buzz word.

You did.

Then I noted that under your definition, Paul, Iverson, Russell, Thomas, and a great deal of other great players would not be ELITE in your book.

This is your book.

I asked you to define your new buzz word.

Given your definition, I find it very interesting that your definition excludes these guys.

That's what is laughable. That's what makes this comical. I asked you to define the term, you did, and the results are that some of the players that were called the 50 greatest would not qualify.

If you don't like the application of your definition, then you need to change it. Otherwise, stop trying to pin it on me. It's there for the whole world to see.

Oh yeah, I forgot..

CTC means Change the Conversation. Didn't I say something about this being an M.O. earlier?

Like I said before... They know me. Now, they're getting to know you too.

It's not that he changed the subject. He can take the argument in any way he wants to. The million dollar question is . . if the team was constructed better, could a guy like JJ be more efficient of a player? Him doing what he did simply showed that JJ isn't ( by his standard ) an elite player. But nobody defending JJ has made that argument. The argument most of us have made, is that the team constructed around JJ doesn't maximize all he can do, and that the team depends heavily on him to play at a superstar level, just to win games at times.

JJ had a down year this year. Everybody knows that. Don't bring up the injury, because that' s not an excuse ( even though it was obvious that the injury affected his 3 point shooting for most of the year ). But in the previous years he's been in Atlanta, he's been one of the best guards in the league and arguably a top 20 player over the totality of the last 6 years. It's interesting that few people want to acknowledge that if you took some of the ballhandling responsibilities away and put a low post scorer on this team, that his offensively efficiency may improve.

But when you bring these things up, it's making excuses for JJ, instead of stating what is real. And on the flip side, if you told other guys around the league that they had to assume a Kobe/Lebron/Wade like role on a team with no PG and no low post scorer, that would be changing the issue.

Is it inconceivable for a PG the caliber of Devin Harris could make JJ a better player by getting him the ball in the right spots, without JJ having to do all of that dribbling just to get his shot off? Is it inconceivable for a PF or C the caliber of an Al Jefferson, who you can throw the ball down to in the post and watch him create offense for himself, possibly even at a level of go-to guy at the end of games? And if you combined all 3 . . how good could a team like that be, if you had defensive minded role players, a few long range shooters to bring off the bench, and one or two big men who don't mind banging on the boards.

JJ could still be the main guy, but he'd have 2 other players on the team who could create their own offense and possibly close out the game. And it would be hard for any team to double team one of those 3 guys, for fear of leaving one of them open.

And even if you took some of our other players, there's no how good a guy like Josh Smith would be playing alongside a PG even the caliber of a Jose Calderon who could get him the ball in the right spots. Or a frontline consisting of Brook Lopez and Al Horford. Let Brook handle the offense around the rim, while Horford could roam from the baseline out to the top of the key.

It's not the "core" talent is bad, it's the player combinations. With these combinations of players, we MUST get out in transition and score baskets. Playing fast is a must. But to do that, we have to be a lot better defensively. Without the transition points, the flaws and limited skills of guys get exposed.

[99PROBL3MS]

It's early in the game, but Dallas is already up 12. And they built a lot of that lead without Dirk in the game because of foul trouble. But the group of players they have on the floor are so solid, especially from a scoring standpoint, that they easily built that lead to 12. Dirk is 1 - 5 FG for 2 points, but they have a 12 point lead?

Why?

Jason Terry - 9 points on 4 - 6 shooting

Deshawn Stevenson - 9 points on 3 - 3 shooting from 3 point range

Jose Barea - 6 points on 3 - 5 shooting

Shawn Marion - 6 points on 2 - 5 shooting

Ish . . even old azz Brian Cardinal came into the game for 3 minutes and knocked down a 3.

And on the defensive end, they go zone and limit Miami's offense while they were knocking down shot after shot.

Of course, as I typed this, Miami goes on a 7 - 0 run and the lead is down to 5. But how huge was it for the reserves to play that well with Dirk basically being a non-factor right now? It'll be interesting to see if Dirk has a lot of energy to close out this game in the 4th quarter, based off of what the complimentary players did in those minutes while Dirk was inactive.

*****************

LOL . . hell of a run by Miami. They were down 12 when I started typing this. Then Eddie House comes in, and they go on a 14 - 0 run to go back up 2. House is 3 - 3 from three.

The fact that people think we have better role players than DAL is baffling. Dirk is 4-19 and they are winning this game convincingly. We would have no chance if Joe was playing as bad as Dirk is tonight.

[Crank]

The fact that people think we have better role players than DAL is baffling. Dirk is 4-19 and they are winning this game convincingly. We would have no chance if Joe was playing as bad as Dirk is tonight.

actually its the playoffs and the need for your role players comes and goes .

Dirk has set a standard with his play that he rarely shoots 4-19 so that on the occasion that he does the team can carry him .

But our best players go through weeks without bringing there 'A" game and so no real standard is set . Our role instead of being needed to carry the team, maybe 2 out of 6 games are needed basically every single game.

before you talk about role players just ask yourself when wast he last time our best 3 players all brought best games at the same time let alone back to back games.

Dirk has been one of the best players in the league for 10 straight years thats a heckuva standard to build around .

[99PROBL3MS]

actually its the playoffs and the need for your role players comes and goes .

Dirk has set a standard with his play that he rarely shoots 4-19 so that on the occasion that he does the team can carry him .

But our best players go through weeks without bringing there 'A" game and so no real standard is set . Our role instead of being needed to carry the team, maybe 2 out of 6 games are needed basically every single game.

before you talk about role players just ask yourself when wast he last time our best 3 players all brought best games at the same time let alone back to back games.

Dirk has been one of the best players in the league for 10 straight years thats a heckuva standard to build around .

I never said anti of that was true. I was just mentioning the fact that peopled here actually think ours are better. I wasn't taking a shot at Dirk. I was just saying that his supporting cast is strong enough to carry them when he has a terrible night.

[Crank]

I never said anti of that was true. I was just mentioning the fact that peopled here actually think ours are better. I wasn't taking a shot at Dirk. I was just saying that his supporting cast is strong enough to carry them when he has a terrible night.

We do but not by a lot but they also have MORE . Thats the difference .

However thats from years of tinkering with a standard thats been set .

Its easier to accumulate that many quality role players when you have a clearcut superstar . With our best players play though its actually kinda hard to define what a role player is on this team.

[Supporter]

no/ can we kill this thread. Almost every team that has won the title has had a hall of famer as their number 1 guy, JJ is not.

[MaceCase]

Where did i put Joe Johnson in the same category with Russell Paul, Iverson and Thomas.

Let me recap this for you.

I asked you to define Elite player.. Since that is your new buzz word.

You did.

Then I noted that under your definition, Paul, Iverson, Russell, Thomas, and a great deal of other great players would not be ELITE in your book.

This is your book.

I asked you to define your new buzz word.

Given your definition, I find it very interesting that your definition excludes these guys.

That's what is laughable. That's what makes this comical. I asked you to define the term, you did, and the results are that some of the players that were called the 50 greatest would not qualify.

If you don't like the application of your definition, then you need to change it. Otherwise, stop trying to pin it on me. It's there for the whole world to see.

Oh yeah, I forgot..

CTC means Change the Conversation. Didn't I say something about this being an M.O. earlier?

Like I said before... They know me. Now, they're getting to know you too.

Diesel, allow me to preface this next piece with a definition.

Context

Con-text

1-The circumstances that form the setting for an event, statement, or idea, and in terms of which it can be fully understood and assessed

2-The parts of something written or spoken that immediately precede and follow a word or passage and clarify its meaning

I said:

Heaven forbid

we are still on the "JJ not having certain "skillsets" players on his teams is what's kept him from being an elite player" argument.

You asked;

Define Elite players please?

Now class, what is the context of both the question and the answer?

Jimmy: Ooo, OOO. Pick me!

Me: Okay, Jimmy. The answer?

Jimmy: Why it's Joe Johnson, Mr. Crawful. Of course.

Me: Very Good, Jimmy. Now what is Joe Johnson, class?

Class in unison: Why, he is a wing scorer, Mr. Crawful.

Me: Excellent, now what criteria would you use to classify a wing scorer as being elite?

Duncecap Diesel: Well he would need to rebound and block shots plus also average ten assists like my favorite Centers and PGs!

Class in unison: silly Diesel! He's a SG known to create his offense at an All Star level and this thread is a referendum on whether or not he could win a title as the #1 guy, dummy!

Me: Now class! You shouldn't call the less fortunate names so let's get back on topic.

Jimmy: Well an elite wing scorer would score a lot of points.

Me: Well Joe struggles to get 20 points in 40 minutes so give me something he'd look favorable in.

JImmy: well he shoots a lot of threes and is good from the freethrow line and stuff, we should find a stat that like shows he's a really efficient scorer at least!

Me: Ah! Good idea, Jimmy! That stat would be called True Shooting, class.

Class in unison: oooooooooooo

Me: So is Joe an efficient wing scorer worthy of utilizing the amount of offensive possessions he uses to jack up shots?

Jimmy: Wellllllll, Mr. Crawful, it says here that he actually sucks at a stat made to benefit players like him that jack up a lot of threes that might lower their overall FG percentage and although he is a good free throw shooter he doesn't actually like to go there.

Duncecap Diesel: Well those stats can't be used to define elite because my favorite players Bill Russell, Allen Iverson, Chris Paul and Isiah Thomas don't look good on it!

Me: Dies, we've gone over this already. We are discussing Joe Johnson here, he's not a Center that can average 22 rebounds a game plus defend the rim, he's not a PG that can average over 9 assists a game which wouldn't be counted in usage for a guy like Paul and Isiah never took 3s which this stat favors and Joe has a bad elbow so he can't shoot enough times to average 30 like Iverson could. See different positions can be elite in different ways but Joe Johnson's best attribute to date has been his supposed scoring prowess that requires double teams to stop.

Duncecap Diesel: But I asked you define elite!!!!!

Me: Yes but you quoted me talking about Joe Johnson becoming elite so that was the, say it with me class!

Everyone but Duncecap Dies in unison: Context of the question and answer!!!!!!!!!!

Me: Gold stars for everyone who can read.

[Joker]

LOL @ this thread. All of you, Northcyde, CTC, and Diesel couldn't be more wrong. Too much to even really go one by one on each one of you guys.

[Diesel]

Diesel, allow me to preface this next piece with a definition.

Context

Con-text

blah blah blah....

So you're saying that you have no Real Answer for Elite player...

That's well understood from what you said previously.

I find it very interesting that you would answer a straight forward question with such Bullsh!t.

And you spent more space on the thread basically saying.

If We're talking about Joe Johnson, an elite player is This.

If we're talking about anybody else, an elite player is ....

Do you see how that sounds?

Your terminologies Mean NOTHING CTC.

You're holding arguments with yourself now. You spent the last day in a half trying to Conjure up a new answer to defend your dumb answer.

When I asked you what is an elite player, I was asking hoping that you had a line drawn or a standard accepted definition.

Not a moving Line.

I would have appreciated it more if you would have said

"Diesel, I'm sorry, i don't have a definition of elite player, it's just a word I pulled out of my *ss to try and marginalize Joe Johnson."

or

"Diesel, I just don't know."

But instead, what do you do... You make up some BS and try to pass it off as something that everybody should know... Until the flaws are pointed out in your answer. My pointing out the flaws had nothing to do with trying to put Joe Johnson on that level. It had everything to do with the fact that you have absolutely no consistency... and now we see.. NO INTEGRITY.

Where is your Integrity CTC?

Cut to Commercial.

[MaceCase]

Oh, I'm sorry, Dies. It seems someone is accusing me of changing the conversation but alas, it seems I'm the only one who's actually managed to stay on topic. :rolleyes:

What? No more ancient Hall of Famers to bring up and use to deflect the conversation like you claim others to be, hmm? I mean clearly I know what elite means seeing as I've already kicked your *ss on Kevin Garnett not even a few pages ago but you think that because.....you asked me......... a question about........ Joe..... becoming elite.....that I gave an answer to the question that was not asked "define overall what an elite player would be outside of the context of you just mentioning and me responding to the topic of Joe Johnson, please" that I honestly backtracked entirely off the argument I had made against you not even a few pages back? Did you want to forget that beating that badly? Did you miss grade school or something? You seem to be missing a) logic b) reading comprehension and c) subject matter but by all means blame this mythical misrepresentation of me for all of your inadequacies. You want a definitive answer to elite? Not Joe Johnson. Oh my, pretty definitive and still within context, imagine that feat.

[AHF]

KNOCK OFF THE SCHOOLYARD INSULTS

Edited June 13, 2011 by AHF