Offensive Geometry

[ATLSmith]

I came across an article by Ian Levy where he maps the "Offensive Geometry"¹ of every NBA team.

Thought it was interesting and worth posting here:

http://www.hickory-high.com/?p=4403

¹And no, "Offensive Geometry" is not in reference to shapes made to look like lewd gestures.

[Buzzard]

He is really not telling us anything most of us do not already know but the fact he has charted it is cool. Josh is a terrible spot up shooter, no news there. We use our least efficent players to much on offense, no news there. We have some decent spot up shooters, no news there. Teague is a good pick and roll guard, that is probably news to superstar....

[Joker]

He is really not telling us anything most of us do not already know but the fact he has charted it is cool. Josh is a terrible spot up shooter, no news there. We use our least efficent players to much on offense, no news there. We have some decent spot up shooters, no news there. Teague is a good pick and roll guard, that is probably news to superstar....

He is a good scorer out of the PnR. That was said by me previously. He's a terrible PnR PG. He is good scoring using PnR's. Not the same thing, please learn stats. He uses picks like Jamal, but mainly slashes while Jamal used it to attack or do his jumper. He can't create for others, never reads the pick, does look for others and when he does, he is a poor passer and the ball doesn't move well. Edited May 23, 2012 by nbasuperstar40

[Buzzard]

He's a terrible PnR PG. He is good scoring using PnR's. Not the same thing, please learn stats.

Lol you are funny as hell. A good scoring pick and roll guard is a good pick and roll guard. Not Teagues fault our coach goes to a pick and roll maybe three times a game tops!

[KB21]

I came across an article by Ian Levy where he maps the "Offensive Geometry"¹ of every NBA team.

Thought it was interesting and worth posting here:

http://www.hickory-high.com/?p=4403

¹And no, "Offensive Geometry" is not in reference to shapes made to look like lewd gestures.

This really puts into perspective just how poorly Atlanta has utilized the talent they do have. I mentioned this in another thread, but it is ridiculous that the Hawks most used plays are some of their most inefficient plays. What that tells me is that the coaching staff is doing one of two things. They are either game planning things regardless of the limitations of the players, or they simply ignore statistics and results and allow this to happen.

As has been stated, this basically graphs and gives strong support to what most of us already knew. First, Josh Smith is not a spot up jump shooter, and the fact that nearly a third of the Hawks offensive plays end with him taking a spot up jump shot is insane. Second, we should not be isolating Joe Johnson so much. We don't isolate him as much as we use Josh as a spot up jump shooter or use Josh in the post, neither of which he is efficient at, but that is probably the third or 4th most used play for the Hawks. The Hawks also need to get away from using Joe as the pick and roll ball handler so often.

Joe is very efficient as a spot up shooter and also in the post. It doesn't take a medical doctor to realize that Joe Johnson would be best used as a spot up shooter and as a post up guard where he can take advantage of his size.

With the exception of Josh Smith, this team's strength is their ability to take spot up jump shots. When this team is playing well, it is because they are using the motion offense and letting the motion of the offense and ball movement create open shots for the players. This is how this team should play, because they do not have anyone that can efficiently create shots for himself. Despite this, when things go to the crunch, this team reverts back to the old days of isolating Joe Johnson with the ball and letting Josh linger around the three point line. It never fails.

[coachx]

He is a good scorer out of the PnR. That was said by me previously. He's a terrible PnR PG. He is good scoring using PnR's. Not the same thing, please learn stats. He uses picks like Jamal, but mainly slashes while Jamal used it to attack or do his jumper. He can't create for others, never reads the pick, does look for others and when he does, he is a poor passer and the ball doesn't move well.

Who were Teague's pick and roll partners ?ZaZa, Collins, and Dampier.How many times have we seen Teague run the pick and roll with ZaZa or Collins and deliver a perfect pass only for them to miss a close layup. ZaZa can't finish in the paint. This cheated Teague out of many would be assist.In the playoffs Dampier had to get minutes. Many will probably remember several pick and rolls with Dampier where Teague delivered a perfect pass only for Dampier to fumble the pass away out of bounds for a turnover. Dampier had some of the worst hands in the league in his prime. Dampier with a year of rust was a train wreck offensively.Teague's lack of assist when running pick and rolls......and his habit of looking to score off pick and rolls.......had more to do with the limitations of his pick and roll partners more then the limitations of Jeff Teague. That of course is just my humble opinion as a Hawks fan.I can't wait to see Teague get a year as the starting PG with a healthy Horford. Horford has all the strengths you look for in a pick and roll partner (wide body, good perimter shooting, good hands, good finisher, high BB IQ). That will give us a more fair evaluation of Teague's abilities with efficiently passing out of pick and rolls for scores. Edited May 23, 2012 by coachx

[Guest]

Can you also imagine a PnR with Josh if he ever 'rolls' to the basket instead of floating out to the 3 pt line...smh. Our talent is just not being utilized properly.

[Joker]

Who were Teague's pick and roll partners ?ZaZa, Collins, and Dampier.How many times have we seen Teague run the pick and roll with ZaZa or Collins and deliver a perfect pass only for them to miss a close layup. ZaZa can't finish in the paint. This cheated Teague out of many would be assist.In the playoffs Dampier had to get minutes. Many will probably remember several pick and rolls with Dampier where Teague delivered a perfect pass only for Dampier to fumble the pass away out of bounds for a turnover. Dampier had some of the worst hands in the league in his prime. Dampier with a year of rust was a train wreck offensively.Teague's lack of assist when running pick and rolls......and his habit of looking to score off pick and rolls.......had more to do with the limitations of his pick and roll partners more then the limitations of Jeff Teague. That of course is just my humble opinion as a Hawks fan.I can't wait to see Teague get a year as the starting PG with a healthy Horford. Horford has all the strengths you look for in a pick and roll partner (wide body, good perimter shooting, good hands, good finisher, high BB IQ). That will give us a more fair evaluation of Teague's abilities with efficiently passing out of pick and rolls for scores.

Does it matter who sets the screens? He will do the same thing 9/10 times. He will drive if stopped pull it back out and if lane is available he will slash to the basket and if given a free lane he will do a floater, dunk if it's open, or pass it the corner. Since Jeff can't shoot off the PnR, they will generally go under the pick which basically kills time. This is why the PnR went from our most used play, more than the iso with Bibby to a play we used maybe 8 to 10 times a game.I watched, I didn't see that happen many times, a couple of times but never many times. If it happened many times, it would be counted. Most of the time, Zaza cuts hard to the basket regardless. Collins can't move so go figure and Damp is old. When Horf has played with Teague, Jeff has serious trouble passing the ball. He will pass it, but with a lack of velocity, poor accuracy, and he doesn't put his body in control to make a pass. His lack of BBIQ shows as he doesn't read the pick, the way the PnR defenders are defending him nor does it even seem logical to Jeff. I could go on and on. I really can. Jeff is more frustrating in the PnR than Jamal.To say he would be better with Horf is true. He would, who wouldn't but to say he will be any good is trash and to say Horford likes Jeff PnR's is BS too. Horford went from 18.3 ppg with Bibby as a #4 option then Bibby was traded. He had Hinrich and Jeff and his scoring has been around 13-15 ppg ever since.I can tell you for a fact, the kid ain't worth shit in the PnR from a PG prospective. Most slashers score better out of the PnR but what happens is defenses adjust. He is like Bobby Jackson. Has tunnel vision, rarely looks to create and just looks like a deer in the headlights. You asking too much from him. That's basically expecting him to fail.

[Joker]

Can you also imagine a PnR with Josh if he ever 'rolls' to the basket instead of floating out to the 3 pt line...smh. Our talent is just not being utilized properly.

Josh doesn't have good basketball movement, he's average at it. Mainly because of low offensive BBIQ. He is best when he gets position, finishing oops, and cutting within the offense. Josh should not be in many situations where he has to create his own shot or put him into position to take spot up shots.

[Diesel]

I agree with what some has said, but I want to give a caution also.This type of graph really graphs our tendencies well and what works well but it's another thing to try to make rationalization based on what we don't do.i looked over the whole NBA briefly. Most teams have things that they don't do that if they did it, it would work GREAT!! Or would it.Such as... Tony Parker shouldn't waste his energy with PNR with Duncan. Spitter has High off the chart PNR numbers... Parker should spend everygame giving Spitter at least 10 PNR opps because he's off the charts.Or maybe... the few times Spitter did a PNR, it worked so he looks very good. But if you go to that as your bread and butter, it will be defended easily.I will say... the only team with a player and a move that was their true bread and butter.. i.e. they went to it often and it was successful often.. was Boston and KG with the Post up.We can attest that the shit works.

[AHF]

I came across an article by Ian Levy where he maps the "Offensive Geometry"¹ of every NBA team.

Thought it was interesting and worth posting here:

http://www.hickory-high.com/?p=4403

¹And no, "Offensive Geometry" is not in reference to shapes made to look like lewd gestures.

Thanks for the excellent post. It is astounding to see the efficiency associated with our most frequently utlilized plays (i.e., high usage, bad production).

[Joker]

The one key stat is how Marvin, Jeff, Kirk, and Joe are really good spot up shooters. Josh cutting is our best offensive production by a mile but that's not something you can game-plan.

Edited May 23, 2012 by nbasuperstar40

[Buzzard]

The one key stat is how Marvin, Jeff, Kirk, and Joe are really good spot up shooters. Josh cutting is our best offensive production by a mile but that's not something you can game-plan.

The other key stat you are dismissing is using Josh over 30% of the time and he our least effective scorer. This does go to us not having a good post up player. We have some good shooters and one who thinks he is good.... Edited May 23, 2012 by Buzzard

[coachx]

Does it matter who sets the screens?

I guess it depends on what opinion your trying to defend when answering that question.A few days ago you said Stockton would not be in the HOF if he did not play with Karl Malone as his pick and roll mate.The pick and roll is a 2 man dance where both men need to be threats to score for it to be run at 100% efficiency. The screener needs good hands, good size, good mid range shooting, and good finishing ability. Those are all traits that Horford has but that ZaZa, Collins, and Dampier do not.

[Buzzard]

I guess it depends on what opinion your trying to defend when answering that question.A few days ago you said Stockton would not be in the HOF if he did not play with Karl Malone as his pick and roll mate.The pick and roll is a 2 man dance where both men need to be threats to score for it to be run at 100% efficiency. The screener needs good hands, good size, good mid range shooting, and good finishing ability. Those are all traits that Horford has but that ZaZa, Collins, and Dampier do not.

And I may add Josh does not have all those traits. Horford is our best player for this. Hard for our PG to learn and grow when our best option is out for half the season. Not that our coach would go to it anyway....

[coachx]

The one key stat is how Marvin, Jeff, Kirk, and Joe are really good spot up shooters. Josh cutting is our best offensive production by a mile but that's not something you can game-plan.

but.....but.....but......2 post before this you went out of your way to correct another poster to tell them Josh Smith is not good with offensive movement.......that he is only average.

The Hawks gameplan alley-oops to Josh out of timeouts all the time. You can design plays for this........you just can't over use it. It more of a tool to get defenses balanced off your other scorers as decoys. Diesel did a good job on this topic earlier in this thread.

All kidding aside........I agree his IQ of when to cut is missing. He doesn't do it enough in the flow of the game b/c he is in love with his perimeter shot............( that for some defense have been willing to give him his entire career......blantant sarcasm.)

Edited May 23, 2012 by coachx

[Mutombolievable]

So running the pnr with the ball in Jeff Teague's hands 4th most run play? Teague has been our starter for one year and it seems that most agree that Horford is our best pnr player and we didnt even have him this season. Was our offenseactually going to run the pnr more this season? When Horford went down did Larry freak out and decide to stick with our old ISO and spot up tendencies? I would really like to see this chart compared to one which shows what we did when we had Horford in the lineup at the beginning of the season. I want to see our offense next season already

[Joker]

but.....but.....but......2 post before this you went out of your way to correct another poster to tell them Josh Smith is not good with offensive movement.......that he is only average.The Hawks gameplan alley-oops to Josh out of timeouts all the time. You can design plays for this........you just can't over use it. It more of a tool to get defenses balanced off your other scorers as decoys. Diesel did a good job on this topic earlier in this thread.All kidding aside........I agree his IQ of when to cut is missing. He doesn't do it enough in the flow of the game b/c he is in love with his perimeter shot............( that for some defense have been willing to give him his entire career......blantant sarcasm.)

offensive movement is based on more than just cutting with the designed play. I shouldn't have to explain every little thing.

[Guest]

Does it matter who sets the screens? He will do the same thing 9/10 times. He will drive if stopped pull it back out and if lane is available he will slash to the basket and if given a free lane he will do a floater, dunk if it's open, or pass it the corner. Since Jeff can't shoot off the PnR, they will generally go under the pick which basically kills time. This is why the PnR went from our most used play, more than the iso with Bibby to a play we used maybe 8 to 10 times a game.

I watched, I didn't see that happen many times, a couple of times but never many times. If it happened many times, it would be counted. Most of the time, Zaza cuts hard to the basket regardless. Collins can't move so go figure and Damp is old. When Horf has played with Teague, Jeff has serious trouble passing the ball. He will pass it, but with a lack of velocity, poor accuracy, and he doesn't put his body in control to make a pass. His lack of BBIQ shows as he doesn't read the pick, the way the PnR defenders are defending him nor does it even seem logical to Jeff. I could go on and on. I really can. Jeff is more frustrating in the PnR than Jamal.

To say he would be better with Horf is true. He would, who wouldn't but to say he will be any good is trash and to say Horford likes Jeff PnR's is BS too. Horford went from 18.3 ppg with Bibby as a #4 option then Bibby was traded. He had Hinrich and Jeff and his scoring has been around 13-15 ppg ever since.

I can tell you for a fact, the kid ain't worth shit in the PnR from a PG prospective. Most slashers score better out of the PnR but what happens is defenses adjust. He is like Bobby Jackson. Has tunnel vision, rarely looks to create and just looks like a deer in the headlights. You asking too much from him. That's basically expecting him to fail.

This is why no one cares what you say, in a previous post you stated that you have not been watching the Hawks much this year.

[Joker]

This is why no one cares what you say, in a previous post you stated that you have not been watching the Hawks much this year.

I never said I haven't been watching much. I watched every single game before ASB and watch 60% of them after it.