No All-Defensive team for Joe and Josh

[Buzzard]

I laughed like hell when I read this. He was rebounding tremendously in these playoffs and was being productive until getting hurt. He played much better throughout the season than KG too. Your argument that KG is the reason their in the playoffs doesn't make much sense when he wasnt even the best player on his team in that series.

Offensively KG was better all season than Josh. Josh just took more shots. And I never said he was the sole reason the Cs are in the playoffs. I said I would take Garnett over Josh this season. Laugh all you want, saying Josh is better than KG even for this season is BS. Doc would probably bust a gut if he saw this comparison. I know I did.

[MaceCase]

Boozer got a vote, this award is void.

Since people are resorting to the Defensive Win Share argument, Boozer was 5th by that metric so he was actually greatly under appreciated by voters.As far as DWS argument goes.......it's a cumulative stat that is affected by amount of minutes a player plays. Josh led all players in the top ten of DWS in minutes played excluding numbers 8 (Marc Gasol) and 9 (Kevin Durant who led the entire league in minutes played) so him being at the top isn't exactly the most solid of arguments.But don't mind me, I'm just a hater. Edited May 23, 2012 by MaceCase

[dlpin]

Celtics fanatic much? Calm down, I love Doc and the Big 4 minus Pierce, too. I know Bradley's a terrific defender but there simply wasn't enough minutes logged for him to be considered.

How is me saying that Bradley is the best on ball defender on the celtics based on being a celtics fanatic? He plays better defense than Rondo easily, and that has nothing to do with whether I am a celtics fan or not. As for minutes, he played more minutes per game this season than Tony Allen did when he got a 2nd team choice last season, and in total he only played 160 fewer minutes than Tony Allen this season.

[Joker]

Playoff KG is better than all PF's not named TD.

[Joker]

If Josh took every possession seriously, this wouldn't even be a topic.

[ersimo2889]

By the way, to clarify, this isn't the media voting for these teams. The voting for this is ALL coaches - the very same coaches that snubbed Josh from the All-star team.

[Joker]

This should be the final straw for Smith in Atlanta. Enjoy your time in New Orleans Joshua.

[MaceCase]

And oh yea,Politics.....

[Buzzard]

Since people are resorting to the Defensive Win Share argument, Boozer was 5th by that metric so he was actually greatly under appreciated by voters.As far as DWS argument goes.......it's a cumulative stat that is affected by amount of minutes a player plays. Josh led all players in the top ten of DWS in minutes played excluding numbers 8 (Marc Gasol) and 9 (Kevin Durant who led the entire league in minutes played) so him being at the top isn't exactly the most solid of arguments.But don't mind me, I'm just a hater.

This should really put to rest any argument that WS is a good way to judge a players defensive ability and impact. My opinion that KG is better this season than Josh should not even be a contest except this is a Hawks board.Sorry but I am not so much a fan as to claim I would rather have Matt Ryan over Peyton ( so long as his neck is solid ). KG is Manning and Josh is close to being Ryan.KG better offensive player not even close.KG better man defender whether it is a PF or Center he faces. Not even close.The only category I am willing to concede is help defense and even that is close due to Garnet's experience, height, and wing span.I am not saying I would take Garnet over Smoove for the next five seasons, but you better believe I would for this one! Edited May 24, 2012 by Buzzard

[AHF]

This should really put to rest any argument that WS is a good way to judge a players defensive ability and impact. My opinion that KG is better this season than Josh should not even be a contest except this is a Hawks board.Sorry but I am not so much a fan as to claim I would rather have Matt Ryan over Peyton ( so long as his neck is solid ). KG is Manning and Josh is close to being Ryan.

Didn't realize that KG was almost Lebron's equal in the regular season at this point in their careers. I thought KG wasn't All-Star worthy but that Manning when healthy is a viable MVP. I guess KG = Lebron, Durant, etc. in the regular season?

KG better offensive player not even close.

This I agree with, although it seems somewhat not relevant for All-Defense.

KG better man defender whether it is a PF or Center he faces. Not even close.The only category I am willing to concede is help defense and even that is close due to Garnet's experience, height, and wing span.I am not saying I would take Garnet over Smoove for the next five seasons, but you better believe I would for this one!

This season I take Josh in the regular season and KG in the playoffs. On the numbers, bear in mind that Boozer's team was 8.6 pp48 worse on defense when he was on the floor. Josh and KG's teams were both 1.6 pp48 better when they were on the floor. Both of them gave up 15.7 PER to their opponents this season (at PF and C respectively). Josh was better on all the defensive raw numbers (rebounding %, steal %, block %).I'm not seeing the metric showing that KG's impact was bigger in the regular season.

[Joker]

Josh was the best PF on defense this year. More than Ibaka, all Ibaka do is protect the rim. All that other stuff, Josh is much better.

[Diesel]

I will take KG over Josh even this year and bet we would do better in the playoffs. Stats stats stats make players like Dalembert and Josh look all world but guess who is still playing and having a monster playoff run? It aint Josh in case you have already forgotten his pitiful series against Boston.

But are you taking him because he's a 7 foot guy with a mean post up (offensive) or because of anything he did defensively?? Just like some of the media, for a defensive team, you have to be able to separate the two.

[Diesel]

found this..

First on the list, and the biggest snub of all, is Atlanta Hawks' Josh Smith. Unlike any of the players who made the All Defensive team, Smith made the top 20 in rebounds, steals and blocks per game. He averaged 9.6 rebounds a game, which is good for 13th in the league, 1.7 blocks a game, good for 9th in the league and 1.4 steals a game, good for 20th.

[dlpin]

Since people are resorting to the Defensive Win Share argument, Boozer was 5th by that metric so he was actually greatly under appreciated by voters.As far as DWS argument goes.......it's a cumulative stat that is affected by amount of minutes a player plays. Josh led all players in the top ten of DWS in minutes played excluding numbers 8 (Marc Gasol) and 9 (Kevin Durant who led the entire league in minutes played) so him being at the top isn't exactly the most solid of arguments.But don't mind me, I'm just a hater.

With regards to WS being cumulative, you can adjust it per minute, or, as it is more common, per 48 minutes. In which case Josh Smith is at about 0.10 DWS per 48 and KG is at 0.11 DWS per 48. In fact, I think KG led the league in DWS per 48 among players with at least 20 min per game. Whether or not that is an indication of how good a player is defensively is up for debate, but the fact that WS is cumulative is something that is easy to fix.

[Buzzard]

Didn't realize that KG was almost Lebron's equal in the regular season at this point in their careers. I thought KG wasn't All-Star worthy but that Manning when healthy is a viable MVP. I guess KG = Lebron, Durant, etc. in the regular season?This I agree with, although it seems somewhat not relevant for All-Defense.This season I take Josh in the regular season and KG in the playoffs. On the numbers, bear in mind that Boozer's team was 8.6 pp48 worse on defense when he was on the floor. Josh and KG's teams were both 1.6 pp48 better when they were on the floor. Both of them gave up 15.7 PER to their opponents this season (at PF and C respectively). Josh was better on all the defensive raw numbers (rebounding %, steal %, block %).I'm not seeing the metric showing that KG's impact was bigger in the regular season.

You are not looking at offense and if you are showing them as almost equal on defense how in the hell can anyone vote Josh onto a all defensive team when he cannot even beat out a player who is closer to 40 than he is to 30.This is the homerism I am talking about. I do not see Garnett as a all defensive player but I see him for what he is, a better player on offense and better on D not because of stats, which are equal, but because of also having the true size to play his position.Bottom line, Smoove is like a smallish 36 year old Garnet on defense and no where near deserving of any type of award or accolade. Which is why NBA coaches and NBA fans outside of Atlanta never vote for him. Edited May 24, 2012 by Buzzard

[MaceCase]

With regards to WS being cumulative, you can adjust it per minute, or, as it is more common, per 48 minutes. In which case Josh Smith is at about 0.10 DWS per 48 and KG is at 0.11 DWS per 48. In fact, I think KG led the league in DWS per 48 among players with at least 20 min per game. Whether or not that is an indication of how good a player is defensively is up for debate, but the fact that WS is cumulative is something that is easy to fix.

Correct, my questioning was over people using his ranking as number 1 by that metric as though it was definitive when there are other factors to it.This brings up another question altogether with regards to those that believe that a "real" coach would tap into his full potential too. Apparently most of the current ones be it through Team USA, All Star or All Defense either despise him or don't respect him enough. Guess it's up to the sportswriters now to put a feather in his cap for his "career" year with an All NBA selection, they seem to vote more on raw stats over feel.

[Sothron]

Both Josh and Joe deserved to be on the All Defense teams.

[Buzzard]

Both Josh and Joe deserved to be on the All Defense teams.

JJ possibly but not Josh. See MaceCase post about coaches not respecting his game. I am starting to think we may be stuck with Josh until he walks considering the lack of praise NBA coaches throw his way. Edited May 24, 2012 by Buzzard

[Sothron]

JJ possibly but not Josh. See MaceCase post about coaches not respecting his game. I am starting to think we may be stuck with Josh until he walks considering the lack of praise NBA coaches throw his way.

You can't ignore someone that led the league in defensive win shares and finished in the top ten for blocks, 13th in rebounds and 20th in steals. All of that from a power forward? That's easily NBA first team All Defense and frankly he should be the DPOY.

[AHF]

You are not looking at offense and if you are showing them as almost equal on defense how in the hell can anyone vote Josh onto a all defensive team when he cannot even beat out a player who is closer to 40 than he is to 30.

I am not showing them as equal. I am showing Garnett's best stats as being equal and Josh being better in all other stats. I am showing Josh with a better team record having lost the one of the Hawks' best 3 players for the year (the equivalent of losing KG, PP or Rondo for the Celtics). Josh beat out Garnett during the regular season.