Houston will pursue Josh Smith if they fail to get Dwight Howard

[Joker]

I have come to the conclusion that what ever argument will keep the debate going the Joker will use. Even if its a 180 degree change in his stance.

No point. You already know, this should have been over 6 pages ago. Now look.Daly, 14,16,18, future 1st for Smith.

[Admin]

No point. You already know, this should have been over 6 pages ago. Now look.Daly, 14,16,18, future 1st for Smith.

Exactly, you did a 180 on what you deem as acceptable. Way to prove our point. And hey why not ask for a personal lap dance from Daryl Morley's wife while you're throwing out fantasies.

[Joker]

Exactly, you did a 180 on what you deem as acceptable. Way to prove our point. And hey why not ask for a personal lap dance from Daryl Morley's wife while you're throwing out fantasies.

This thread should have ended hours ago.

[Guest Walter]

Sorry Joker lost this thread when he said 14/16/avg player is a good trade but 14/avg player is a bad trade, thereby meaning the 16 pick was the deal breaker. Continuing with this thread discussion is as pointless as trying to control Afghanistan.

I think there are other reasons Joker lost this thread. Aside from whether a trade is good or bad, I would not make the trade for Scola/14 but I might Scola 14/16. The 16th pick IN THIS DRAFT has more value than in many others. W

[thecampster]

Okay, let's take a look at the different major points of value in trading for a player.1. current player contribution2. long term value3. current cap situation4. current player salary5. expected player salary6. marketabilityUsing my 2007 draft result (random year older than 3 years..FYI).1. Josh would rank an A/A- in category 1. Someone like Marvin would rank a C. Remember, this is not in relation to their salary, just overall production. Lebron an A+, etc.2. Josh would rank high here but it goes to mention that since he is an athletic player, 30 is his ceiling and you'll start seeing a decline.3. This is a situational stat for the team trading for and against. Take Golden State who has 10 players and 56 million committed vs. the Hawks who have 6 players an 60 million committed. Josh's salary isn't a hinderance to them, 2 more draft picks with low salaries hold less value. Houston has 11 players commited...5 of which are on team options with only 30 million committed with 11 million more in options. Josh, Joe, Marvin's salaries are of no consequence to them. They actually help as they are required to meet the league minimum. Skola's 9 million isn't really helpful to us as we would only gain 4 million under the LT but what we add in draft pick salary makes up the difference. It's a salary wash with lower expected production (rookies replacing league min vets).4. Josh's salary of 13.2 million is acceptible given his production.5. Josh's expected salary could push 16 million next year if he produces. Sending him to Houston where he gets a chance to be the man could push his value and ensure his bargaining rights next year.6. Josh is a highly marketable player. Boston is chomping at the bit for him right now. However, his antics and shot selection would wear out their welcome in an established market.Houston, GS are examples of optimal trading partners. But Houston lacks the pieces to get Smith without greatly up'ing the ante in picks.

[EazyRoc]

I just find it unreal we have someone that seems to have some understanding of the game of basketball that insists that losing a player for literally nothing is better than having a one year rental and a mid teen first rounder. My mind is in fact boggled.

Sometimes I think pride just gets in the way of people. Instead of just admitting that he might be wrong, he continues to argue something that goes against common sense.

[Guest Walter]

why not ask for a personal lap dance from Daryl Morley's wife while you're throwing out fantasies.

Is there any other kind of lap dance one asks for one's self other than a personal one?W

[MaceCase]

Didn't Cleveland and Toronto get trade exception for LBJ and Bosh respectively. In essence it was a sign and trade with Cleveland also getting the following: "According to Windhorst, the Cavs will be getting two first-round picks from the Heat sometime between 2013 and 2017, a 2012 second-round pick from New Orleans, a future second-round pick, and a $16 million trade exception.

I don't know how the new CBA handles this and it also means the team signing Josh will have to be giving us picks as well, I guess it was LBJ's attempt at at least getting Cleveland something in return beside the TE.

A trade exception in this case is created when a free agent is sign and traded to a new team. The free agent agrees to the sign and trade because it nets him the same Bird right advantages such as the pay raises and extra year that he would get with his original team but just for a new team.

The new CBA eliminated this. A sign and trade in the new CBA is the equivalent to signing with a new team outright without one so there is zero incentive for a player to bother with it. There are also extra limitations that will be added to sign and trade deals starting the very summer Josh is a free agent. A pick can be included but it can protected in a manner that it will never be conveyed to the team such as the 2nd rounder the Knicks owe Phoenix for the Amar'e deal.

So you've gone from balking at a mid lotto pick for Josh to hoping that when he leaves he's nice enough to go through the extra trouble of a process that nets him zero advantages and will reward the team with a conditional much lower pick on the ass end of forever.

I say wait it out.

[Joker]

Houston pieces are mediocre. The only pieces I like are their numerous picks. The rest are just role players. Lowry and Dragic are more than role players or scrubs but only Dragic fits what we need.

A trade exception in this case is created when a free agent is sign and traded to a new team. The free agent agrees to the sign and trade because it nets him the same Bird right advantages such as the pay raises and extra year that he would get with his original team but just for a new team.The new CBA eliminated this. A sign and trade in the new CBA is the equivalent to signing with a new team outright without one so there is zero incentive for a player to bother with it. There are also extra limitations that will be added to sign and trade deals starting the very summer Josh is a free agent. A pick can be included but it can protected in a manner that it will never be conveyed to the team such as the 2nd rounder the Knicks owe Phoenix for the Amar'e deal.So you've gone from balking at a mid lotto pick for Josh to hoping that when he leaves he's nice enough to go through the extra trouble of a process that nets him zero advantages and will reward the team with a conditional much lower pick on the ass end of forever.I say wait it out.

Denver has a 13 million dollar exception on Nene. Edited June 27, 2012 by Joker

[MaceCase]

Denver has a 13 million dollar exception on Nene.

What is this? A fun fact? Does it have a point? I suggest you make one because I don't give out crackers just for talking.

Before you babble keep in mind that we were discussing a sign and trade and you popped up with a standard trade as though it's what exactly? A counter point?

Edited June 27, 2012 by MaceCase

[Admin]

Is there any other kind of lap dance one asks for one's self other than a personal one?W

LOL I wouldn't know but I suppose not

[Joker]

What is this? A fun fact? Does it have a point? I suggest you make one because I don't give out crackers just for talking.

Before you babble keep in mind that we were discussing a sign and trade and you popped up with a standard trade as though it's what exactly? A counter point?

This thread been over but I was just adding to your statement and you said do a SnT. You don't have to do a SnT anymore. You get that instantly.

[Admin]

Sometimes I think pride just gets in the way of people. Instead of just admitting that he might be wrong, he continues to argue something that goes against common sense.

Very true.Anyone who's been here for a long time has been guilty of that at one time or another.

[Admin]

This thread been over but I was just adding to your statement and you said do a SnT. You don't have to do a SnT anymore. You get that instantly.

Umm no you don't. The other team has to agree to the snt and must be well under the cap for you to get an trade exception.

[hazer]

I seen how smart Joker is.

[MaceCase]

This thread been over but I was just adding to your statement and you said do a SnT. You don't have to do a SnT anymore. You get that instantly.

You didn't add shit. I point out to you that we are discussing your preference of waiting it out til Josh's free agency and hoping for a SnT to create a TPE and you chime in with a standard trade between two teams for a guy under contract....

[AHF]

Ben Gordon and future 1st traded for Maggette. The precedence as been set.We should get aScola 14.16.18 and a future 1st for Josh Smith.Yep, a trade exception>>>>> TRASH

??Does someone not realize that Charlotte just bought a first round pick for $13M? The first round pick was the price for another team absorbing Gordon's ridiculous contract. Maggette was included because he has an expiring salary.This trade was basically "expiring salary" for $25M over the next two years for a worthless player plus a 1st round sweetner to get some team to take that bad contract.What part of that precedent is relevant to Josh Smith?Is this an argument that Josh Smith's expiring salary should be usable to acquire an overpaid loser who will raise our 2013-14 cap number dramatically and that we can pick up an extra first in the process?I hope it isn't an argument that "look what Maggette was worth and he stinks that must mean Josh is worth so much more!"

[Buzzard]

??Does someone not realize that Charlotte just bought a first round pick for $13M? The first round pick was the price for another team absorbing Gordon's ridiculous contract. Maggette was included because he has an expiring salary.This trade was basically "expiring salary" for $25M over the next two years for a worthless player plus a 1st round sweetner to get some team to take that bad contract.What part of that precedent is relevant to Josh Smith?Is this an argument that Josh Smith's expiring salary should be usable to acquire an overpaid loser who will raise our 2013-14 cap number dramatically and that we can pick up an extra first in the process?I hope it isn't an argument that "look what Maggette was worth and he stinks that must mean Josh is worth so much more!"

From my point of view Detroit took the Bobcats to the cleaners here.

[thecampster]

??

Does someone not realize that Charlotte just bought a first round pick for $13M? The first round pick was the price for another team absorbing Gordon's ridiculous contract. Maggette was included because he has an expiring salary.

This trade was basically "expiring salary" for $25M over the next two years for a worthless player plus a 1st round sweetner to get some team to take that bad contract.

What part of that precedent is relevant to Josh Smith?

Is this an argument that Josh Smith's expiring salary should be usable to acquire an overpaid loser who will raise our 2013-14 cap number dramatically and that we can pick up an extra first in the process?

I hope it isn't an argument that "look what Maggette was worth and he stinks that must mean Josh is worth so much more!"

You didn't even need to go into your explanation. The idea of "expiring contract" was D.O.A.

The interesting thing about the "expiring contract" argument is that you only value an expiring contract if A: You really don't value the player. and B: You are expecting a free agent to be available that you can A: entice and B: afford.

No one signs Josh Smith, easily a top 1 or 2 player on most teams, and says, "boy I can't wait till his deal is up so I can use his 13 million to sign someone else."

Joe Johnson, maybe.

The idea of an expiring is like a placeholder for salary you think you can use to get someone better. There is not going to be a 13 million dollar a year free agent next year better than Josh Smith.

What follows is the free agent list for next year. Remember, the free agent must want to sign with you, be unrestricted, be better than Josh Smith and available for 13.2 million or less. I've eliminated restricted and team option free agents because if they're worth 13.2 million, the team is bringing them back. Lost cause to discuss.

Now show me the player in there that someone will trade significantly for Josh for so they can dump his salary to sign them. That person isn't in the list.

You trade for Josh Smith to make him your number 2 option, to entice another player to sign, anchor your Defense or complete your team. Not as a bargaining chip.

Point Guard

Chris Paul, L.A. Clippers – $17.8 million – Unrestricted

Devin Harris, Utah Jazz – $8.5 million – Unrestricted

Jose Calderon, Toronto Raptors – $10.6 million – Unrestricted

Jarrett Jack, New Orleans Hornets – $5.4 million – Unrestricted

Beno Udrih, Milwaukee Bucks – $7.4 million – Unrestricted

Will Bynum, Detroit Pistons – $3.3 million – Unrestricted

Jeremy Pargo, Memphis Grizzlies – $1.0 million – Unrestricted*

Earl Watson, Utah Jazz – $2.0 million – Unrestricted

Sebastian Telfair, Phoenix Suns – $1.6 million – Unrestricted

Daniel Gibson, Cleveland Cavaliers – $4.8 million – Unrestricted

C.J. Watson, Chicago Bulls – $3.2 million – Unrestricted

Shaun Livingston, Milwaukee Bucks – $3.5 million – Unrestricted

Shelvin Mack, Washington Wizards – $0.8 million – Unrestricted*

Andrew Goudelock, L.A. Lakers – $0.8 million – Unrestricted*

Shooting Guard

(name, team – 2012-13 salary – status)

Kevin Martin, Houston Rockets – $12.4 million – Unrestricted

Ben Gordon, Detroit Pistons – $12.4 million – Player Option ($13.2 million)

Manu Ginobili, San Antonio Spurs – $14.1 million – Unrestricted

Corey Maggette, Charlotte Bobcats - $10.9 million – Unrestricted

Tony Allen, Memphis Grizzlies – $3.3 million – Unrestricted

J.J. Redick, Orlando Magic – $6.2 million – Unrestricted

Stephen Jackson, San Antonio Spurs – $10.1 million – Unrestricted

Mike Dunleavy, Milwaukee Bucks – $3.8 million – Unrestricted

Anthony Morrow, Brooklyn Nets – $4.0 million – Unrestricted

Daequan Cook, Oklahoma City Thunder – $3.1 million – Unrestricted

Ronnie Brewer, Chicago Bulls – $4.4 million – Unrestricted

Gary Neal, San Antonio Spurs – $0.9 million – Unrestricted*

Corey Brewer, Denver Nuggets – $2.7 million – Unrestricted

Gary Forbes, Toronto Raptors – $1.5 million – Unrestricted

Reggie Williams, Charlotte Bobcats – $2.5 million – Unrestricted

Martell Webster, Minnesota Timberwolves – $5.7 million – Unrestricted

Raja Bell, Utah Jazz – $3.5 million – Unrestricted

Charles Jenkins, Golden State Warriors – $0.8 million – Unrestricted

Lester Hudson, Memphis Grizzlies – $0.9 million – Unrestricted

Small Forward

(name, team – 2012-13 salary – status)

Josh Smith, Atlanta Hawks – $13.2 million – Unrestricted

Dorrell Wright, Golden State Warriors – $4.1 million – Unrestricted

Jan Vesely, Washington Wizards – $3.2 million – Team Option ($3.3 million)

Linas Kleiza, Toronto Raptors – $4.6 million – Player Option ($4.6 million)

Richard Jefferson, Golden State Warriors – $10.2 million – Player Option ($11.1 million)

Trevor Ariza, New Orleans Hornets – $7.3 million – Player Option ($7.7 million)

James Jones, Miami HEAT – $1.5 million – Player Option ($1.5 million)

Rashard Lewis, Washington Wizards – $22.7 million – Unrestricted

Kyle Korver, Chicago Bulls – $5.0 million – Unrestricted

Luke Walton, Cleveland Cavaliers – $5.8 million – Unrestricted

E’Twaun Moore, Boston Celtics – $0.8 million – Unrestricted*

Julyan Stone, Denver Nuggets – $0.8 million – Unrestricted*

Power Forward

(name, team – 2012-13 salary – status)

David West, Indiana Pacers – $10.0 million – Unrestricted

DeJuan Blair, San Antonio Spurs – $1.1 million – Unrestricted

Paul Millsap, Utah Jazz – $8.6 million – Unrestricted

Al Jefferson, Utah Jazz – $15.0 million – Unrestricted

Lamar Odom, Dallas Mavericks – $8.2 million – Unrestricted

Josh McRoberts, L.A. Lakers – $3.1 million – Unrestricted

Jeff Pendergraph, Indiana Pacers – $1.5 million – Unrestricted*

Ryan Gomes, L.A. Clippers – $4.0 million – Unrestricted

Charlie Villanueva, Detroit Pistons – $8.1 million – Player Option ($8.6 million)

Craig Smith, Portland Trail Blazers – $1.1 million – Unrestricted

Samardo Samuels, Cleveland Cavaliers – $0.9 million – Unrestricted*

Sean Williams, Dallas Mavericks – $0.9 million – Unrestricted

Hamady N’Diaye, Washington Wizards – $0.9 million – Unrestricted*

Justin Harper, Orlando Magic – $0.8 million – Unrestricted*

Josh Harrellson, New York Knicks – $0.8 million – Unrestricted*

Jon Leuer, Milwaukee Bucks – $0.8 million – Unrestricted*

Center

(name, team – 2012-13 salary – status)

Dwight Howard, Orlando Magic – $19.5 million – Unrestricted

Andrew Bynum, L.A. Lakers – $16.1 million – Unrestricted

Samuel Dalembert, Houston Rockets – $6.7 million – Unrestricted

Nikola Pekovic, Minnesota Timberwolves – $4.8 million – Unrestricted*

Tiago Splitter, San Antonio Spurs – $3.9 million – Unrestricted*

Zaza Pachulia, Atlanta Hawks – $5.3 million – Unrestricted

Brad Miller, Minnesota Timberwolves – $5.1 million – Unrestricted

Kurt Thomas, Portland Trail Blazers – $1.3 million – Unrestricted

Timofey Mozgov, Denver Nuggets – $3.1 million – Unrestricted*

Johan Petro, Brooklyn Nets – $3.5 million – Unrestricted

Dexter Pittman, Miami HEAT – $0.9 million – Unrestricted*

Jon Brockman, Milwaukee Bucks – $1.0 million – Unrestricted

Brandan Wright, Dallas Mavericks – $0.9 million – Unrestricted

Jerome Jordan, New York Knicks – $0.8 million – Unrestricted*

[Joker]

??Does someone not realize that Charlotte just bought a first round pick for $13M? The first round pick was the price for another team absorbing Gordon's ridiculous contract. Maggette was included because he has an expiring salary.This trade was basically "expiring salary" for $25M over the next two years for a worthless player plus a 1st round sweetner to get some team to take that bad contract.What part of that precedent is relevant to Josh Smith?Is this an argument that Josh Smith's expiring salary should be usable to acquire an overpaid loser who will raise our 2013-14 cap number dramatically and that we can pick up an extra first in the process?I hope it isn't an argument that "look what Maggette was worth and he stinks that must mean Josh is worth so much more!"

Lotto protected 13' top 1 14' unprotected 15'.