****Dwight Howard Discussion Thread****

[AHF]

Yes yes, it's Orlando's fault for the package they got.......not Dwight and his agent for limiting his market to only 3 teams. If you guys actually think of it in that terms (reality) then without having to wait to January this was the best package for Orlando.

So all the public pining for Howard and the accrual of numerous picks and cap space to take on bad contracts in Houston was just for show? The NJ trade was just marketing for the Nets and not something they actually put on the table? This was a pathetic deal. Carmelo limited his market and Denver struck and recouped real assets. Orlando fiddled around and wasted better opportunities to take on: a backup center a borderline first round pick 3 protected picks that will never be in the lottery and that come at the earliest in 2013, 2015 and 2017 (possibly later) Plus an overpaid decent but not great Afflalo (27 years old) and an overpaid Al Harrington (32 years old) - two overpaid assets whose futures are entirely inconsistent with the kind of rebuilding timeline for Orlando? If you honestly think that Orlando couldn't have done better last trade deadline (when his "list" wasn't so developed) or this offseason (when NJ was firmly on the list and willing to give up everything it could and when Houston was willing to take a big-time swing at him without an indication of interest in resigning) or by waiting until this trade deadline (when players who currently can't be traded will be available) and this was the peak value you can get for by far the most dominant big man in the game then you and I are really, really of different minds on this. There is a very significant probability that Orlando will never end up with a single even solid starter who isn't overpaid out of this deal. The only difference between this deal and one Otis Smith would have gotten is that Otis Smith would have made sure some past his prime, hugely overpaid former headliner was included.

[lethalweapon3]

Meer/WaferAfflalo/Redick/HarklessHedo/Q-Rich/HarperBigBaby/The other Al H./NicholsonVuce/Ayón/O'QuinnMagic fans, SEASON TICKETS ARE ON SALE NOW!Don't all jump at once!No, I don't mean the bridge!~lw3

Edited August 10, 2012 by lethalweapon3

[lethalweapon3]

Lakers expected to get guard Chris Duhon & forward Earl Clark in Dwight Howard deal, too, source tells Y! Sports. Magic to land 2nd rd picks

A small net plus for ORL IMO. Should make up for the TWO second round picks they shipped to Cleveland for JUSTIN HARPER. ~lw3

[MaceCase]

So all the public pining for Howard and the accrual of numerous picks and cap space to take on bad contracts in Houston was just for show? The NJ trade was just marketing for the Nets and not something they actually put on the table?

This was a pathetic deal. Carmelo limited his market and Denver struck and recouped real assets. Orlando fiddled around and wasted better opportunities to take on:

a backup center

a borderline first round pick

3 protected picks that will never be in the lottery and that come at the earliest in 2013, 2015 and 2017 (possibly later)

Plus an overpaid decent but not great Afflalo (27 years old) and an overpaid Al Harrington (32 years old) - two overpaid assets whose futures are entirely inconsistent with the kind of rebuilding timeline for Orlando?

If you honestly think that Orlando couldn't have done better last trade deadline (when his "list" wasn't so developed) or this offseason (when NJ was firmly on the list and willing to give up everything it could and when Houston was willing to take a big-time swing at him without an indication of interest in resigning) or by waiting until this trade deadline (when players who currently can't be traded will be available) and this was the peak value you can get for by far the most dominant big man in the game then you and I are really, really of different minds on this.

There is a very significant probability that Orlando will never end up with a single even solid starter who isn't overpaid out of this deal. The only difference between this deal and one Otis Smith would have gotten is that Otis Smith would have made sure some past his prime, hugely overpaid former headliner was included.

Well first of all, lets draw the biggest line of demarcation between the Carmelo situation and Dwight. Carmelo had a team dumb enough or desperate enough in New Jersey that felt they were close enough to New York to fulfil his desire that they'd be able to resign him so they kept foolishly upping the ante on their bids over and over and over again. They thought they had a legitimate chance to resign Melo and this confidence forced the Knicks to actually offer up a good package rather than sticking to their guns of their original trash package or waiting till free agency. That Nets package was so good that Utah swooped in later and said "hey, we wouldn't mind that".

This was the game that Orlando tried to play, copying the Denver model, but uhmmmmmm, the Nets were so desperate to retain their bird in hand that they burnt most of their resources getting Joe Johnson. From there it became a whole convoluted process of getting numerous free agents and third, fourth and fifth teams involved just for Orlando to get a worse or the same package than what was originally offered.......a Maxed out Brook Lopez, overpaid Humphries (if that, the other teams were meant to take him), middle tier prospect in Brooks, three late firsts and Richardson off their hands......sound familiar?

Lost in all of this is that

no

one

upped

their

offers

Houston is talked about like they were actually a contender.....but guess what, Dwight and co made sure that they'd wouldn't pull the trigger by sending signals both private and public not to because he'll walk. Orlando was going to at least use Houston like Melo used New Jersey to get Brooklyn (who was now off the table), the Lakers and Dallas to up their bids but........has anyone stopped to notice that the Rockets moved on by spending all of their capspace on Lin and Asik? So what could their package to Orlando possibly be of taking all of Orlando's bad contracts? How plausible did that even sound in the beginning that Daryl Morey of all people would take on 3 bad contracts on the whim that Dwight would stay? Does it sound a lot more like fan speculation similar to Danny Ferry moving Joe Johnson and Marvin were for the sole purpose of getting Dwight and Paul?

As far as your question of timing? Dallas, Brooklyn and LA have always been Howard's top destination. Bucher or someone mentioned this a year ago or well before the deadline but it was lost in all the "No Sleep til Brooklyn" hullabaloo of this offseason. The Nets package at the deadline still centered around the chance to overpay Lopez and get rid of Hedo for the smattering we got for Joe. Humphries had veto power on wherever he could go because he was on a 1 year deal and the Nets did another "bird in hand" move by throwing their best asset at Portland for Wallace to appease Deron.

Last season's trade deadline the best offer on the table was still the chance to retain Dwight, didn't seem all that crazy when he played with Orlando's hearts by picking up his option.....just to scream at them that it was the worst decision of his life 2 months later. Taking on Bynum would have been the same headache and there's no f***ing way that they'd make it 2 1/2 month's into the season because Dwight sure as hell would never play another game for them (he won't even leave his home in LA to step foot in Orlando for charity events......hmm there's your collusion for ya) on the whim that Brooklyn wouldn't be satisfied with their season's prospects.......only to end up with a maxed out Brook Lopez all over again.

But yea, you can continue to believe that Dwight was not complicit at all in any of this and just blame it all on the Orlando front office for the entire debacle. At least they got more than a TPE and late firsts though.

[AHF]

Well first of all, lets draw the biggest line of demarcation between the Carmelo situation and Dwight. Carmelo had a team dumb enough or desperate enough in New Jersey that felt they were close enough to New York to fulfil his desire that they'd be able to resign him so they kept foolishly upping the ante on their bids over and over and over again. They thought they had a legitimate chance to resign Melo and this confidence forced the Knicks to actually offer up a good package rather than sticking to their guns of their original trash package or waiting till free agency. That Nets package was so good that Utah swooped in later and said "hey, we wouldn't mind that".

This was the game that Orlando tried to play, copying the Denver model, but uhmmmmmm, the Nets were so desperate to retain their bird in hand that they burnt most of their resources getting Joe Johnson. From there it became a whole convoluted process of getting numerous free agents and third, fourth and fifth teams involved just for Orlando to get a worse or the same package than what was originally offered.......a Maxed out Brook Lopez, overpaid Humphries (if that, the other teams were meant to take him), middle tier prospect in Brooks, three late firsts and Richardson off their hands......sound familiar?

Lost in all of this is that

no

one

upped

their

offers

Houston is talked about like they were actually a contender.....but guess what, Dwight and co made sure that they'd wouldn't pull the trigger by sending signals both private and public not to because he'll walk. Orlando was going to at least use Houston like Melo used New Jersey to get Brooklyn (who was now off the table), the Lakers and Dallas to up their bids but........has anyone stopped to notice that the Rockets moved on by spending all of their capspace on Lin and Asik? So what could their package to Orlando possibly be of taking all of Orlando's bad contracts? How plausible did that even sound in the beginning that Daryl Morey of all people would take on 3 bad contracts on the whim that Dwight would stay? Does it sound a lot more like fan speculation similar to Danny Ferry moving Joe Johnson and Marvin were for the sole purpose of getting Dwight and Paul?

lol Of course Houston moved on after Orlando passed on their draft day offers. Their package couldn't get better for Orlando than it was on draft day and I can't imagine they moved all their vets for picks and told the world they were going to take on the risk with Howard unless they were ready to pull the trigger. I blame Orlando for passing on that offer.

As for NJ, it was the same situation. They had a decent package of picks and players from NJ with the chance to unload more bad contracts but they passed on it. The NJ package looks better to me than this one.

As far as your question of timing? Dallas, Brooklyn and LA have always been Howard's top destination. Bucher or someone mentioned this a year ago or well before the deadline but it was lost in all the "No Sleep til Brooklyn" hullabaloo of this offseason. The Nets package at the deadline still centered around the chance to overpay Lopez and get rid of Hedo for the smattering we got for Joe. Humphries had veto power on wherever he could go because he was on a 1 year deal and the Nets did another "bird in hand" move by throwing their best asset at Portland for Wallace to appease Deron.

Their offer at draft time was still better than what Orlando is getting here. I agree 100% that NJ were pure idiots for ditching their lottery pick asset for Wallace.

Last season's trade deadline the best offer on the table was still the chance to retain Dwight, didn't seem all that crazy when he played with Orlando's hearts by picking up his option.....just to scream at them that it was the worst decision of his life 2 months later. Taking on Bynum would have been the same headache and there's no f***ing way that they'd make it 2 1/2 month's into the season because Dwight sure as hell would never play another game for them (he won't even leave his home in LA to step foot in Orlando for charity events......hmm there's your collusion for ya) on the whim that Brooklyn wouldn't be satisfied with their season's prospects.......only to end up with a maxed out Brook Lopez all over again.

I agree on Bynum. Since multiple teams were interested in paying Brooks a max deal (and he had offer sheets for it), I don't know why you would think they couldn't move Brooks to one of those teams if they didn't want to keep him. The package of picks NJ offered at the time of the draft was much better and the package of bad salaries they could unload was better.

But yea, you can continue to believe that Dwight was not complicit at all in any of this and just blame it all on the Orlando front office for the entire debacle. At least they got more than a TPE and late firsts though.

I don't think Dwight isn't to blame at all. He clearly helped reduced his market value and he waffled because he didn't want to be the bad guy. However, he clearly let Orlando know a while ago he planned to leave and he has let teams know what he planned to do. Orlando can be pissed because the guy won't sign with most teams but they can't say they were sucker punched.

I can say, however, that all Orlando got was a couple overpaid vets and late firsts - except the late firsts won't even be able for years to come. I'd prefer a deal where I got Brook Lopez (with the potential to deal him to Portland or Charlotte), a short-term overpaid Humphries, unloaded almost all my bad contracts, and got more first round picks that I could use in a shorter time frame (included unprotected picks).

The bottomline for me is that Howard absolutely limited Orlando's options but he has given them > 1 year to contingency plan and I think the return for him taking into account what he did to limit the market was absolute junk. This was compensation not much different than a S&T of an UFA rather than a first team All-NBA player under contract.

Edited August 10, 2012 by AHF

[MaceCase]

I don't know why you keep mentioning a Nets draft day deal, it simply wasn't possible because Lopez and Humphries were not under contract. Anyway here's Woj reporting on the actual deals that were on the table.

The final offer Brooklyn put on the table for Orlando would have been Lopez, Kris Humphries at one-year, $9.6 million, MarShon Brooks and four unprotected first round picks for Howard, Jason Richardson, Chris Duhon and Earl Clark.

Does this sound any different than what the Magic got? Replace Afflalo at 31 million with Lopez at 60 million owed but then again, aren't you one of the biggest Lopez detractors? Did you not say that you "pity the fool that gives Brook Lopez a max deal"? What other difference is there from what they ended up with? The protection of what is likely to be late or far flung picks regardless due to Brooklyn owing Utah and us plus the Stepien rule? The current deal eliminated Richardson's salary too because although his and Harrington's deals are concurrent, Harringtons final two years are not guaranteed.

Now Houston's

Houston's final offer was $12 million in immediate cap space instead of Arron Afflalo and Al Harrington, several of their recent first round selections, along with future lottery and unprotected draft picks.

The Rockets were unwilling to take back any bad contracts in return while dealing for Howard.

Now here you are getting the same level prospects drafted in the same range as Harkless and Vucevic (12-18) plus immediate cap savings but that's on Howard's salary alone not any of the bad contracts. Howard's deal was coming off the books the next year anyway so that's not really a coup that they accelerated it. The Toronto pick (which is technically protected too) and Houston's own unprotected (I'd assume it would be their 2013) are the best incentive here but they aren't exactly making you go wow either.

[lethalweapon3]

Lakers salaries: Brother, can you spare $98 million? http://hoopshype.com/salaries/la_lakers.htm Devin Ebanks is expected to sign his QO soon, not that they'll notice either way. ~lw3

[lethalweapon3]

^ and already, that's outdated. Can they break $100 million before the day's over? http://www.latimes.com/sports/lakersnow/la-jodie-meeks-accepts-twoyear-deal-with-lakers-20120810,0,2545205.story ~lw3