Rebuild Models....

[Wretch]

LOL...yeah. I think though, people look at the finished product and come up with their own view on how it came to be...and they sometimes ignore the most significant aspect of building that product - especially all the dominoes that fall afterwards. How things just seem to fall into place.

Say these guys can't get over the hump in 2 years and they bring in Avery Johnson or some other big name coach...and they win a championship. All of a sudden, BOOM..."Yeah, see the key to a championship is a GREAT COACH!"

If they bring in a 3 point specialist that puts them over:

"HA HA! SEE! You need that guy! That's the key! You gotta have a guy that can stretch the floor! It doesn't have to be a superstar, but THAT guy is the key!"

If they bring in a defensive, rebounding monster:

"Defense I tell ya! Defense and rebound is what wins!"

If they bring in a fantastic PG and they win a championship:

"You see there! You NEEEEEED a PG like that if you expect to win big! A TRUE PG is what you need to win a championship!"

The truth is that you don't even get to that point without an engine to move the vehicle. Paul George is that engine. Every team needs one, but they're hard to come by and not given up very easily when found.

[Buzzard]

LOL...yeah. I think though, people look at the finished product and come up with their own view on how it came to be...and they sometimes ignore the most significant aspect of building that product - especially all the dominoes that fall afterwards. How things just seem to fall into place.

Say these guys can't get over the hump in 2 years and they bring in Avery Johnson or some other big name coach...and they win a championship. All of a sudden, BOOM..."Yeah, see the key to a championship is a GREAT COACH!"

If they bring in a 3 point specialist that puts them over:

"HA HA! SEE! You need that guy! That's the key! You gotta have a guy that can stretch the floor! It doesn't have to be a superstar, but THAT guy is the key!"

If they bring in a defensive, rebounding monster:

"Defense I tell ya! Defense and rebound is what wins!"

If they bring in a fantastic PG and they win a championship:

"You see there! You NEEEEEED a PG like that if you expect to win big! A TRUE PG is what you need to win a championship!"

The truth is that you don't even get to that point without an engine to move the vehicle. Paul George is that engine. Every team needs one, but they're hard to come by and not given up very easily when found.

How is saying they have to have Paul George any different than saying they have to have Hibbert, or a PG, or a coach? You say George is the engine; I say Hibbert is. No great D and they give up more points than they can score.

The one constant on that team has been Hibbert. Granger, then no Granger. But now its George must be the engine....

Edited November 20, 2013 by Buzzard

[Wretch]

How is saying they have to have Paul George any different than saying they have to have Hibbert, or a PG, or a coach? You say George is the engine; I say Hibbert is. No great D and they give up more points than they can score.

The one constant on that team has been Hibbert. Granger, then no Granger. But now its George must be the engine....

Surely Indiana is Hibbert's team and he is the engine. Not the NBA's 6th leading scorer... *gasp* What was I thinking....

Man, if we could just flush this roster, get our hands on a 7 footer that can rebound, defend, and give us like 10-15ppg and 8-9 rebounds a game...damn, I reckon we'd be unstoppable. Just get decent PG next to him, a guy like Korver to hit 3 pointers, and a decent PF....CHAMPIONSHIP.

[Buzzard]

Surely Indiana is Hibbert's team and he is the engine. Not the NBA's 6th leading scorer... *gasp* What was I thinking....

Man, if we could just flush this roster, get our hands on a 7 footer that can rebound, defend, and give us like 10-15ppg and 8-9 rebounds a game...damn, I reckon we'd be unstoppable. Just get decent PG next to him, a guy like Korver to hit 3 pointers, and a decent PF....CHAMPIONSHIP.

Last year when they made the finals George was 30th at 17.4ppg. Preinjury Granger in his last full season 18.7ppg. You are spot on with your sarcasm even if you don't won't to be; give me Hibbert over anyone on that team to build around all day long.

[nathan2331]

Could it be possible that both are equally necessary. It really doesn't matter who's more" integral" to the Pacers success because without either one, they wouldn't be nearly as successful and each would be hard to replace.

[Wretch]

Yes, they are equally important. I'm not going to sit here and spell that out again. I'm also not going to try and explain or debate the importance of a "go to" player or what their role is. If you don't know what that is and WHO that is on each and every contender, then there's no point in continuing this conversation.

LOL...I'm done here.

[nathan2331]

Yes, they are equally important. I'm not going to sit here and spell that out again.  I'm also not going to try and explain or debate the importance of a "go to" player or what their role is.  If you don't know what that is and WHO that is on each and every contender, then there's no point in continuing this conversation. LOL...I'm done here.

Didn't mean to insult your intelligence. Just didn't understand why the two of you were arguing.

[Wretch]

Well, I'm not really arguing. I've watched the game for like 30 years and I know what separates a contender from every other team. Most of the things people think are neccesary for building a contender are common sense: rebounding, taking care of the ball, bench scoring, coaching, etc. There is a portion of the fan base though that refuses to acknowledge special talent.

Call them stars, superstars, franchise players...whatever. Some people are just hell bent on the idea that basketball is a TEAM sport and that no one player is more important than the other. I have a pretty in depth opinion about why that seems to be such a polarizing topic around here, but for simplicity's sake...I'll just say it's because Hawks fans honestly don't know any better. We've not had the kind of player (since Nique) that can show the fans what it really means for a team to have a "go to" talent. So they don't fully appreciate it when they see it. Moreover, since we've failed at getting that player here for so long, people just think it must be that hard for everyone and that there must be another way to get it done.

The truth is that there isn't.

As far as the Hibbert/George thing goes... Indiana HAS a contender now. That's all they care about. That's all their fans care about. Those dudes have one goal. They're a TEAM and their success is due to their combined efforts - not just Paul George. Everybody on that team understands that - but make no mistake. Everybody on that team also understands who the engine is. Every one of them does and when the games get rough, when the defense gets stingy, and when they get hit in the mouth by LeBron or Derrick Rose...that team and their fans will look to Paul George for some kind of answer, not Roy Hibbert. Everyone has a role on a team and George's role is that of Alpha wolf.You can rebound, defend, block shots, all that...but what good is all that when you come down to the other end and face an equally tough defense, and you don't have a dude that can get that damn ball in the basket?

[Diesel]

LOL...yeah. I think though, people look at the finished product and come up with their own view on how it came to be...and they sometimes ignore the most significant aspect of building that product - especially all the dominoes that fall afterwards. How things just seem to fall into place.

Say these guys can't get over the hump in 2 years and they bring in Avery Johnson or some other big name coach...and they win a championship. All of a sudden, BOOM..."Yeah, see the key to a championship is a GREAT COACH!"

If they bring in a 3 point specialist that puts them over:

"HA HA! SEE! You need that guy! That's the key! You gotta have a guy that can stretch the floor! It doesn't have to be a superstar, but THAT guy is the key!"

If they bring in a defensive, rebounding monster:

"Defense I tell ya! Defense and rebound is what wins!"

If they bring in a fantastic PG and they win a championship:

"You see there! You NEEEEEED a PG like that if you expect to win big! A TRUE PG is what you need to win a championship!"

The truth is that you don't even get to that point without an engine to move the vehicle. Paul George is that engine. Every team needs one, but they're hard to come by and not given up very easily when found.

The engine... I like how you talked about DRodman before, but here's the difference.

Before he got hurt, they had another engine named Granger. The Pacers development required the development of Hibbert. The Pacer's calling card is their defense. Instead of looking at the guy who closes games, look at what they do to people to win. They stop them from scoring. That being the case, I believe you can easily substitute Paul George for a healthy Danny Granger and still get wins.

It's good to have a face. No doubt. We've had that before. What you have to have with the face however is the monsters of the midway that gives the face a chance to close. We're talking impact.

If you put Paul George onto Milwaukee's team do they automatically become championship material? I mean, you replace Mayo with George, what are Milwaukee? They are not constructed to win right now (is my point). You can't ignore the construction that is behind George and say that he's the cat's meow... When you recognize the construction, you notice the biggest piece therein is Hibbert. Hibbert sat the bench at the wrong times and Miami were able to beat Indy. Had he been on the floor, Indy would be NBA champions right now.

[Diesel]

Well, I'm not really arguing. I've watched the game for like 30 years and I know what separates a contender from every other team. Most of the things people think are neccesary for building a contender are common sense: rebounding, taking care of the ball, bench scoring, coaching, etc. There is a portion of the fan base though that refuses to acknowledge special talent.

Call them stars, superstars, franchise players...whatever. Some people are just hell bent on the idea that basketball is a TEAM sport and that no one player is more important than the other. I have a pretty in depth opinion about why that seems to be such a polarizing topic around here, but for simplicity's sake...I'll just say it's because Hawks fans honestly don't know any better. We've not had the kind of player (since Nique) that can show the fans what it really means for a team to have a "go to" talent. So they don't fully appreciate it when they see it. Moreover, since we've failed at getting that player here for so long, people just think it must be that hard for everyone and that there must be another way to get it done.

The truth is that there isn't.

As far as the Hibbert/George thing goes... Indiana HAS a contender now. That's all they care about. That's all their fans care about. Those dudes have one goal. They're a TEAM and their success is due to their combined efforts - not just Paul George. Everybody on that team understands that - but make no mistake. Everybody on that team also understands who the engine is. Every one of them does and when the games get rough, when the defense gets stingy, and when they get hit in the mouth by LeBron or Derrick Rose...that team and their fans will look to Paul George for some kind of answer, not Roy Hibbert. Everyone has a role on a team and George's role is that of Alpha wolf.You can rebound, defend, block shots, all that...but what good is all that when you come down to the other end and face an equally tough defense, and you don't have a dude that can get that damn ball in the basket?

You have made Indy to be the Allen Iverson led 76ers. They are not that. I recognize that George is important, but let's talk about us...

Why did we fail when we had 6 time Allstar Joe Johnson?

Why did we fail when we had NBA Champion Steve Smith?

Why did we fail when we had Dominique who was Magnifique?

Especially in Nique's case, I would say that Nique was a much better scorer than George. I remember Looking to Nique for an answer (as you say) every time some team would come down and bust our defense in the mouth. And Nique tried...

But whether it was Nique, Smitty, or Joe, we have never made it past the second round. We're talking better engines than George here. The problem is that the whole construction has to be right. A face (engine) is good for the fan appeal. However, that doesn't necessarily win you more games. Kobe without Pau or Shaq is wonderful to watch but doesn't sniff championship.

For the past 9 years are so.. with the ASG we have been built wrong. We have never lived past picking Clumsiness over the best PG in the game. We put too much time into Selfish Chucky McChukerson instead of trying to rebuild correctly. Right now is the time for us to fix what has been broken. Sure, I would like a face (engine) but a good engine does nothing if it's sitting in the garage on a chain.

[AHF]

Let's see the Pacers actually win a ring before calling them anything more than the next Portland Trailblazers or Indiana Pacers, etc. I have not been a fan of their rebuild over the years but I'll eat some crow and admit that they have fully exceeded my expectations for them -- no one more than Hibbert. All that said, they weren't a great team last year so much as a good team that matched up uniquely well against Miami in the East. I think Indiana is very lucky that the East is so very weak right now. If they had to beat multiple tough teams (ala the Spurs, Rockets, Thunder, etc.) in the playoffs then I would say the odds were pretty significantly stacked against them as a contender. As it is, they are still underdogs because they have to go through Miami but they have been built to beat Miami so that gives them better than a puncher's chance in that series (as long as they don't foolishly remove Hibbert from the game when they most need stops) and then I expect them to be back as underdogs against the best of the West if they make the finals. For the regular season, they are off to an unsustainable start but they will be significantly better than last year in the regular season because of their more potent bench.

They are doing a fantastic job executing their plan and George's and Hibbert's unanticipated (by me) ascensions can put them as contenders if they sustain but I am still not ready to anoint them as world-beaters any more than I was Memphis last year when so many people on this site though they were the model team.

[Vol4ever]

The thing about Utah... is that they traded Deron Williams (a franchise player...some would say) for Derrick Favors. I think they have tanked to get to where they are. Unfortunately, they tanked in some weak drafts and this upcoming tank is their payday tank. Because believe it or not, Kanter and Favors and Hayward are all coming around. If they can hold those guys and Burke and get one of the big three.. they will be really good for 5 to 10 years. Better than OKC. The thing about N.O. is that they did tank.. gave up Paul. SO that they could get Davis (repayment from the league)...I think it will work out great. Yall know that I believe the draft is rigged in certain years to fit the Commish's needs. He needs a strong league. I suppose if BKLYN is in position, they will get the pick... however, I think their pick can be swapped out for our pick... Ferry would be genius if that happens. There's also NY. There's also Boston. There's also LAL. The question is who will the commish grant with a superstar.....eh.. I mean, who will win the rigged lottery.

I agree the lottery has always been rigged. The NBA has put a few teams on a pedestal. Lakers, Celtics, Bulls, Knicks will always get superstar players. The Knicks are just total screw-ups and Melo is the worst superstar to play in the NBA. Anyway it kinda looks to me that Brooklyn will be added to that pedestal with politics taking the forefront. Bottom line, we aint getting the top pick even if we have the worst record in the league.

[Wretch]

You have made Indy to be the Allen Iverson led 76ers. They are not that. I recognize that George is important, but let's talk about us...

Why did we fail when we had 6 time Allstar Joe Johnson?

Why did we fail when we had NBA Champion Steve Smith?

Why did we fail when we had Dominique who was Magnifique?

Especially in Nique's case, I would say that Nique was a much better scorer than George. I remember Looking to Nique for an answer (as you say) every time some team would come down and bust our defense in the mouth. And Nique tried...

But whether it was Nique, Smitty, or Joe, we have never made it past the second round. We're talking better engines than George here. The problem is that the whole construction has to be right. A face (engine) is good for the fan appeal. However, that doesn't necessarily win you more games. Kobe without Pau or Shaq is wonderful to watch but doesn't sniff championship.

For the past 9 years are so.. with the ASG we have been built wrong. We have never lived past picking Clumsiness over the best PG in the game. We put too much time into Selfish Chucky McChukerson instead of trying to rebuild correctly. Right now is the time for us to fix what has been broken. Sure, I would like a face (engine) but a good engine does nothing if it's sitting in the garage on a chain.

What you're doing is making the case that a complete team is more important than an elite scorer/alpha. There's no way to argue that. It's common sense. Nobody is going to be a contender without *****ALL***** of the right pieces in place. BUT, two things...

First, the impact of an elite scorer is what puts a team over. Yeah, you can say that the key to their rise has been the development of Hibbert. That doesn't make him the engine, it just makes him an important part of the machine. You still need a guy that can make shots because that's how you win the game. A team without an elite scorer is just a team looking for an identity and a way to win.

Conversely, while an incomplete team with an alpha/elite scorer may not be a contender - it is MUCH easier to build around them and move forward. Supporting pieces are much easier to come by and that is what Hibbert is. No matter how key he is to their success, he's still a supporting cast member.

Without either, they're clearly not the same team...but finding a Hibbert (or a great coach, or a serviceable PG, or a quality shooter) is a much less complicated task than finding a guy that can lead the league in scoring.

Why have we not been a contender? And what's this about our former guys?

Interesting that you bring up Nique, because with him we got as close to the ECF's as we've ever been - a legendary duel with Larry bird and a #1 seed in 93 before we shipped him mid-season. Smitty and JJ? You're talking about 3rd tier, maybe 2.5 tier players...guys that should play #2 on a true contender being utilized as the primary option for us. The point still stands that we haven't had an alpha scorer since Nique left us.

[nathan2331]

 

What you're doing is making the case that a complete team is more important than an elite scorer/alpha.  There's no way to argue that.  It's common sense.  Nobody is going to be a contender without *****ALL***** of the right pieces in place.  BUT, two things...

 

First, the impact of an elite scorer is what puts a team over.  Yeah, you can say that the key to their rise has been the development of Hibbert.  That doesn't make him the engine, it just makes him an important part of the machine.  You still need a guy that can make shots because that's how you win the game.  A team without an elite scorer is just a team looking for an identity and a way to win.  

 

Conversely, while an incomplete team with an alpha/elite scorer may not be a contender - it is MUCH easier to build around them and move forward.  Supporting pieces are much easier to come by and that is what Hibbert is.  No matter how key he is to their success, he's still a supporting cast member.

 

Without either, they're clearly not the same team...but finding a Hibbert (or a great coach, or a serviceable PG, or a quality shooter) is a much less complicated task than finding a guy that can lead the league in scoring.  

 

Why have we not been a contender?  And what's this about our former guys?

Interesting that you bring up Nique, because with him we got as close to the ECF's as we've ever been - a legendary duel with Larry bird and a #1 seed in 93 before we shipped him mid-season.  Smitty and JJ?  You're talking about 3rd tier, maybe 2.5 tier players...guys that should play #2 on a true contender being utilized as the primary option for us.  The point still stands that we haven't had an alpha scorer since Nique left us.

I think you make the most valid point that while both George and Hibbert have been integral to the Pacers, it is much easier to acquire a Hibbert-esque talent than it is one like George. If the Hawks give up the right pieces, we could probably land a defensive anchor in the form of Asik or Marc Gasol. Heck the Grizzlies have Gasol yet they are nowhere closer to a championship than we are.

[AHF]

I think you make the most valid point that while both George and Hibbert have been integral to the Pacers, it is much easier to acquire a Hibbert-esque talent than it is one like George. If the Hawks give up the right pieces, we could probably land a defensive anchor in the form of Asik or Marc Gasol. Heck the Grizzlies have Gasol yet they are nowhere closer to a championship than we are.

I'm not sure I buy that so quickly for a couple reasons. First, Gasol is overrated as a defender at this point. Second, Asik is to Hibbert as an interior enforcer as Evan Turner is to Kevin Durant -- i.e., Hibbert is both the better defender and much better all-around player. There aren't many replacements for Hibbert available anywhere in the league.

Is it really harder to land a Kevin Martin ($6.5M as a free agent) than Marc Gasol? If we are going to just look at a subset of the player's skills, Martin is averaging less than 1 ppg less than George with similar efficiency and was available to the highest bidder to any team this summer where a $7M bid would land him. Hibbert, Gasol and even Asik are all going to get paid more than that.

Now, I think George is excellent but I just don't buy him as some kind of truly dominant offensive force. He is more of an all-around impact player for me and I think his ts% is going to drop some which will in turn reduce his PPG a bit causing him to fall from a top 5 spot that seems as much a function of small sample size as talent. Bear in mind that the difference between George and the #20 scorer in the league is less than 10% of George's PPG while the difference between Hibbert and the #20 shot blocker is a difference of more than 68%

To date, Indiana is +17.5 points per 100 possessions with Hibbert on the floor and +14.3 points per 100 possessions with George on the floor.

Edited November 22, 2013 by AHF

[nathan2331]

 I'm not sure I buy that so quickly for a couple reasons.  First, Gasol is overrated as a defender at this point.  Second, Asik is to Hibbert as an interior enforcer as Evan Turner is to Kevin Durant -- i.e., Hibbert is both the better defender and much better all-around player.  There aren't many replacements for Hibbert available anywhere in the league. Is it really harder to land a Kevin Martin ($6.5M as a free agent) than Marc Gasol?  Martin is averaging less than 1 ppg less than George with similar efficiency.  Now, I think George is excellent but I just don't buy him as some kind of truly dominant offensive force.  He is more of an all-around impact player for me and I think his ts% is going to drop some which will in turn reduce his PPG a bit causing him to fall from a top 5 spot that seems as much a function of small sample size as talent.

Just looked up Hibbert's stats, 4.4 blocks, wow. But I my point, Martin may be scoring very well this season but I think that's a product of the team he's on and the role he has. Moreover, Martins defense is nowhere near George's. You put Martin on Lebron and your going to have a bad time. George is a two way player whereas Hibbert scores only 11.4 ppg this season. You can't replace a player like George as easily as you can Hibbert.

 I'm not sure I buy that so quickly for a couple reasons.  First, Gasol is overrated as a defender at this point.  Second, Asik is to Hibbert as an interior enforcer as Evan Turner is to Kevin Durant -- i.e., Hibbert is both the better defender and much better all-around player.  There aren't many replacements for Hibbert available anywhere in the league. Is it really harder to land a Kevin Martin ($6.5M as a free agent) than Marc Gasol?  Martin is averaging less than 1 ppg less than George with similar efficiency.  Now, I think George is excellent but I just don't buy him as some kind of truly dominant offensive force.  He is more of an all-around impact player for me and I think his ts% is going to drop some which will in turn reduce his PPG a bit causing him to fall from a top 5 spot that seems as much a function of small sample size as talent.

Just looked up Hibbert's stats, 4.4 blocks, wow. But I my point, Martin may be scoring very well this season but I think that's a product of the team he's on and the role he has. Moreover, Martins defense is nowhere near George's. You put Martin on Lebron and your going to have a bad time. George is a two way player whereas Hibbert scores only 11.4 ppg this season. You can't replace a player like George as easily as you can Hibbert.

[AHF]

Who are the guys who are "replacements" for Hibbert? Here you must have someone who can control the paint and work both ends of the floor.

In my mind you can make a case for:

Dwight Howard

Anthony Davis

Andre Drummond

The poor man versions are:

DeAndre Jordan

Andrew Bogut

Serge Ibaka

Derrick Favors

Omer Asik

Who are the "replacements" for George? For me, you can replace George with a two-way 2 or 3 player.

Lebron James

Kevin Durant

James Harden

Dwayne Wade

Andre Iguodala

Poor man versions:

Kawhi Leonard

Rudy Gay

Klay Thompson

Carmelo Anthony

Evan Turner

Aaron Afflalo

I just don't see this big difference in the available talent pool of replacement players that favors George. It is harder to find a highly skilled and effective 7 footer than a highly skilled and effective swingman so I tend to think that Hibbert is at least as hard to replace even if George is the better player.

[nathan2331]

My point is this if you take a poor man's Hibbert: say Asik since he's a hot topic and pair him with a talent like George: let's use Durant (Iguodala and Harden don't belong on the list) you have a contender once you build the rest of the team around them. If you take Dwight Howard and pair him with Rudy Gay, that's no where near a combination like Asik/Durant. Now yes, talents like Davis and Drummond are going nowhere. But the fact remains that the dropoff in talent between George and Rudy Gay is much larger than the dropoff between Hibbert and Asik.

[Nicholasp27]

LOLat calling Harden a 2-way player He is horribad at defensePG is a top 7 player right now and is one of the better wing defenders AND a go-to guyIggy is decent on offense (not a tony Allen) but not nearly as good as pg on offense while pg is close to iggy on defense

[Guest]

LOLat calling Harden a 2-way player He is horribad at defense

Very true - no awareness and most importantly lacking the effort.Sometimes you have to wonder what people see when they watch certain players