Merged: Grantland - Free Agency Winners and Losers

[Admin]

Well, I was there in the mid-late '80s and I'll tell you why they didn't rank higher. It was because they played in one of the smallest arenas in the league at that time (especially in '88-89 when they brought in Theus and Moses and pratically sold out for the season). Wanna compare the Omni to the Forum, MSG, the Spectrum, the Palace of Auburn Hills, the Delta Center, or old Chicago Stadium? I'll wait...

 

Again, I never heard of a company relying on its customer base to help its product improve. Wanna put more butts in the seats? DRAFT BETTER. We wouldn't be having this conversation (AGAIN!!!) if Chris Paul et al were playing here instead of the jabronies BK brought in; no one on this forum can debate that one. Trade for something other than more cap space. Market the team better. Hyping up the visiting team and selling their star(s) jerseys in your arena says alot about what you think of your own product; you think Coca-Cola has Pepsi products being sold in their museum downtown? I'm sick and tired of hearing the 'Atlanta has bad fans because they don't pay to see a winning team' BS. What's your definition of winning? Mine doesn't include sub-.500 teams and embarrassing second-round knockouts that Mike Tyson opponents from the '80s would laugh at. And judging by the folks showing up to the building, I'm not alone.

 

You can't continue getting your ish pushed in come playoff time and expect folks to continue supporting your product. You have to break through at some point. Ask Mike Smith how under the gun he is to make the playoffs and do something. Ask Chipper Jones or John Smoltz why the fans stopped coming in October once their one-and-done performances started getting old. Don't complain about the crowds when everyone else except this team and the effin Clippers have seen the conference finals OVER THE LAST 40 YEARS. Don't complain when we have to watch one player after the next become breakout stars that this team passed over in the draft. Toronto doesn't have the NFL or the SEC/ACC to compete against year-round. Nor does one-horse towns like Salt Lake, Portland, Sacramento, or San Antonio. The excuses of them not improving their product has to end. The 'win without losing' approach to building a roster has to end. The piecemeal approach of building a team juuuuuuuust good enough to be a 5-8th seed and get some TV $$$ and nothing further has to end.

 

GAME. SET. MATCH.

 

What have the Falcons or Braves done to garner so much support from the local fans? Unless you're telling me that fans are showing up to support them because of what they did 20 years ago? 

 

And Toronto? They've got an awesome city, a good baseball team with a good history, they've got the Bills nearby plus their own CFL team. They kill us in attendance. 

 

We are twenty freaking eighth in attendance in the NBA, ahead of only 76ers and the Bucks.  The Celtics have been awful for 20 years outside of their relatively short big 3 run and somehow they're still killing the Hawks in attendance. I don't see any superstars on their team or any real attempts to sign any.  

 

Game. Set. Match? You're kidding right? 

[Admin]

I'm not going to say I wont attend a game or games this year, but as things stand right now I doubt I will be going.  If DF is not going to significantly improve this team then there is no reason to go.  

 

This crap keeps happening and Coach Bud will go to another organization that is committed.  

 

The Hawks are not commited.

 

How are the Hawks not committed? What could they have done this year to show coach Bud and the great fans in Atlanta how committed they are? 

 

Overpay for Parsons or Hayward and kill our payroll?  Overpay for guys with long injury histories like Deng and Gasol, both of whom have a ton of miles on their bodies and are going to miss a lot of games on their new contracts. 

 

I mean really, as the fan who's not going to show up and support the team, what could they have done THIS offseason, something they had control over, that would have changed your stance? You know the answer is absolutely nothing because even if they had signed one of those guys above you (and the guys who think like you) weren't going to show up anyway.  I don't mean to be a d*ck about it but it's true. 

[Vol4ever]

How are the Hawks not committed? What could they have done this year to show coach Bud and the great fans in Atlanta how committed they are? 

 

Overpay for Parsons or Hayward and kill our payroll?  Overpay for guys with long injury histories like Deng and Gasol, both of whom have a ton of miles on their bodies and are going to miss a lot of games on their new contracts. 

 

I mean really, as the fan who's not going to show up and support the team, what could they have done THIS offseason, something they had control over, that would have changed your stance? You know the answer is absolutely nothing because even if they had signed one of those guys above you (and the guys who think like you) weren't going to show up anyway.  I don't mean to be a d*ck about it but it's true. 

The Hawks could have signed Gasol on a 2 year deal, he would have made the Hawks the favorite in the east.  DF looks like a fool for throwing a last minute deal offer out there.

 

BTW I live in Chattanooga and attend at least 10 games a year.  How many do you attend?

Edited July 15, 2014 by Vol4ever

[Pacman21]

Lol y'all fall for this half assed narrative every time.

-Lebron was always going back to Cleveland the other interviews were basically to keep the tampering allegations away

-Dwight wants nothing to do with the City of Atlanta he doesn't live here and rarely ever comes back for reasons that have nothing to do with the hawks

-Melo re-signed with the Knicks

Y'all spent the whole offseason saying they shouldn't overpay for 2nd tier players and now y'all are mad that they didn't. And I'm not even gonna waste time on how stupid criticizing other people on how they spend their money is.

[HawkItus]

The one thing I'm hearing that may be a game changer is uncapped max.  If that ever happens then the superstar issue goes out the window.  Not sure how it would work and if @hawksfanatic knows more about it maybe he can explain.   

[Admin]

The Hawks could have signed Gasol on a 2 year deal, he would have made the Hawks the favorite in the east.  DF looks like a fool for throwing a last minute deal offer out there.

 

BTW I live in Chattanooga and attend at least 10 games a year.  How many do you attend?

 

How could we have signed Gasol when his "instinct told him to sign in Chicago" or some other crap like that. We had no shot at him, but the casual fan doesn't want to consider that. They just want to complain that we didn't get him. Unfortunately it takes 2 to tango and he didn't even want to dance with us. 

 

You are significantly closer than I am as it's a 2 hour ish drive for you whereas it's 12 hours for me.  I see 3-4 Hawks games per year, here in Houston, in SA, Dallas (sometimes) and New Orleans (sometimes). 

[Vol4ever]

How could we have signed Gasol when his "instinct told him to sign in Chicago" or some other crap like that. We had no shot at him, but the casual fan doesn't want to consider that. They just want to complain that we didn't get him. Unfortunately it takes 2 to tango and he didn't even want to dance with us. 

 

You are significantly closer than I am as it's a 2 hour ish drive for you whereas it's 12 hours for me.  I see 3-4 Hawks games per year, here in Houston, in SA, Dallas (sometimes) and New Orleans (sometimes). 

Wow.   Dolph if DF realy wanted Gasol he would have pulled out the stops to get him.  If you cant see a pattern with this guy then you are blind.  He was not successful in Cleveland, and was given a fresh start to show his worth as a GM, he has blown it this summer.  If you dont see that then there is nothing else I can say to you or any other supporter of DF.

 

You said I didnt attend any games anyway.....

[Guest]

The one thing I'm hearing that may be a game changer is uncapped max.  If that ever happens then the superstar issue goes out the window.  Not sure how it would work and if @hawksfanatic knows more about it maybe he can explain.

I'm not familiar with the reference, I'm guessing it's from a Zach Lowe podcast or some sort? But the NBA didn't have a maximum salary until the 1999 CBA, some like to claim it was driven by the owners but really it was a player issue. If you have Jordan/Alonzo/Whoever taking up all a team's Cap Space, well then the Rodney Rogers of the world wouldn't be able to get any money. So the Maximum Salary was invented.

The NBA would still function as it is. Bird Rights would allow a team to re-sign their player to a contract in excess of the Cap if they wanted. And for other Free Agents or signings, teams still need to either have Cap Space or an Exception to the Cap. So MLEs are still in play.

Fundamentally, the biggest difference is that a team like Philly could have offered LeBron a $40 million contract this offseason (I think, someone would need to double check what they had as Cap Space to begin). Then it becomes a serious question, the Cavs would only be able to offer $20 million. So does LeBron still have the montage of "I'm Coming Home"? Or is he driven by money? If you look at *any other industry* you would see that we generally observe individuals gravitate to the highest monetary offer. This doesn't happen always, as there is some non-monetary benefit to "Coming Home" which would then make one wonder if LeBron values Cleveland more than $20 million.

So it would level the playing field, but it would also hurt a Channing Frye. And it turns out, when the NBA is collectively bargaining they are not bargaining with LeBron. The NBA bargains with the NBPA. And the Channing Frye's outweigh the LeBrons and so the Maximum Salary is here to stay. But not because the owners are forcing it. The owners might actually enjoy it as that would surely be a better way to achieve competitive balance than a Salary Cap (which doesn't change competitive balance much, but it does reduce costs so beneficial for the owners).

[Admin]

Wow.   Dolph if DF realy wanted Gasol he would have pulled out the stops to get him.  If you cant see a pattern with this guy then you are blind.  He was not successful in Cleveland, and was given a fresh start to show his worth as a GM, he has blown it this summer.  If you dont see that then there is nothing else I can say to you or any other supporter of DF.

 

You said I didnt attend any games anyway.....

 

You say these things in a vacuum. No Gasol was not coming to Atlanta... unless you wanted to drastically overpay him. He wanted to be in Chicago.  They reportedly didn't even go after him, he came to them. 

 

How the hell was he not successful in Cleveland? They had a finals appearances and should have a title if LeChoke wasn't afraid of the pressure. 

 

I'm not going to say I wont attend a game or games this year, but as things stand right now I doubt I will be going.  If DF is not going to significantly improve this team then there is no reason to go.  

 

This crap keeps happening and Coach Bud will go to another organization that is committed.  

 

The Hawks are not commited.

 

I don't know whether you attend games.  Just going off what you said above about not going.

[HawkItus]

I'm not familiar with the reference, I'm guessing it's from a Zach Lowe podcast or some sort? But the NBA didn't have a maximum salary until the 1999 CBA, some like to claim it was driven by the owners but really it was a player issue. If you have Jordan/Alonzo/Whoever taking up all a team's Cap Space, well then the Rodney Rogers of the world wouldn't be able to get any money. So the Maximum Salary was invented.

The NBA would still function as it is. Bird Rights would allow a team to re-sign their player to a contract in excess of the Cap if they wanted. And for other Free Agents or signings, teams still need to either have Cap Space or an Exception to the Cap. So MLEs are still in play.

Fundamentally, the biggest difference is that a team like Philly could have offered LeBron a $40 million contract this offseason (I think, someone would need to double check what they had as Cap Space to begin). Then it becomes a serious question, the Cavs would only be able to offer $20 million. So does LeBron still have the montage of "I'm Coming Home"? Or is he driven by money? If you look at *any other industry* you would see that we generally observe individuals gravitate to the highest monetary offer. This doesn't happen always, as there is some non-monetary benefit to "Coming Home" which would then make one wonder if LeBron values Cleveland more than $20 million.

So it would level the playing field, but it would also hurt a Channing Frye. And it turns out, when the NBA is collectively bargaining they are not bargaining with LeBron. The NBA bargains with the NBPA. And the Channing Frye's outweigh the LeBrons and so the Maximum Salary is here to stay. But not because the owners are forcing it. The owners might actually enjoy it as that would surely be a better way to achieve competitive balance than a Salary Cap (which doesn't change competitive balance much, but it does reduce costs so beneficial for the owners).

I actually heard it on Lebatard's show from a guest reporter.   Thanks for explanation.  

[AHF]

The teams that benefit the most from the salary maximums are players who draft stars (and enjoy some advantages in resigning them) and the most attractive teams/markets who win the beauty contests among teams offering the same max deal.  Teams like the Hawks that have no superstars, don't draft superstars and don't have the most attractive team don't benefit at all from the maximum salary.  By getting someone like Lebron on a max deal, it lets you get them way under their true market value which leaves you more $$s to add other players than you would have in a team capped system.  As hawksfanatic says, this leaves more dollars for the non-stars in the league to enjoy.  

 

You can look at the major US leagues this way right now:

 

MLB - No team maximum (although penalties have created a soft ceiling in practice for many teams similar to the luxury tax ceiling in the NBA) and no individual maximum

NBA - Team maximum (soft ceiling at the luxury tax line where teams can exceed if willing to pay penalties) and individual maximum (hard - cannot be exceeded)

NFL - Team maximum (hard - cannot be exceeded) and no individual maximum (although franchise designations can check the salaries of the superstars)

Edited July 15, 2014 by AHF

[Diesel]

But off the court Joe did zero to move the needle on fan interest in the team.   How many guys with his talent and accomplishments that you point out are so invisible in the city they play in.   I mean the dude was never on the radio, never appeared in an ad for anything, hell the guy rarely smiled.   I'm not knocking him, it's just who he is.   But you don't want him to be the focal point of your franchise from a PR perspective.   I guarantee you could put Horford Korver and Joe in a lineup and way more folks in Atlanta could id Horford and Korver than our 6 time all star.   

 

Joe can't be solely responsible for building fan interest.   First, you have to market... and then you have to make it easy for fans to go to games and finally, they have to have a good time.

The drought in fan interest really is not the ASG.  You can blame it on Kasten and them.  During the time of Kasten, they were supposed to be providing an experience that would make children lifelong fans of the Hawks.  Those Children would now be in their 30s and 40s and they would be fans and they would continue the tradition of bringing their kids to games and having them become lifelong fans.  How do you think it works in Boston?  Philly?  Utah?

 

The people who grew up watching Malone/Stockton are now Jazz fans 4Life.  The damn thing works.  Look at wrestling and NFL.  They work by catching kids and making them life long fans.  The Hawks franchise stopped doing that back in the 80s.  So now, they wait on some star player to do it and it's just not enough.  It must be a movement.  Ask Cuban.  When he got to Dallas, there was no tradition.  He had to make being a Mavs fan a MOVEMENT.  Winning championships only helps that movement.

[IBelieveInFerry]

I absolutely agree with the catch 22 statement.  Fans in Atlanta won't support a loser without a savior and a Savior won't come here without a fan base unless drafted.  So the only way out of this viscous cycle is exactly what Ferry did...Find your Vince Lombardy!  Bud has to somehow get this group to win with the limited talent on the roster and I think he can!  Once this team starts winning, everyone will take notice and will come.  Things should get a lot easier after the 1st 2 winning season especially if the Hawks are as competitive in the playoffs as they were last year.  So lets see what Bud can do with Teague, Horford and Millsap.  I'll keep my fingers crossed that bad luck doesn't strike us as hard this year as last.

[Diesel]

Nothing to do in Toronto???????  

 

And you're telling me that the Hawks don't get major support from entertainers as big or bigger than Drake? 

 

Was TI as vocal and a part of the Hawks playoffs as Drake was to Toronto?  What about Luda?  There's a difference between going to games and being a unpaid spokesperson for the team (Fan).  Sure, TI and Luda and Cierra and a few others go to games... but at game 6... which one of those guys were leading the charge saying that we can win this?  When those guys (especially TI) are invited to Sportscenter, which one of them say with no hesitation that the Hawks are their team?  I've seen TI beg off the Hawks winning. He never says "We"!  If he has, I have not seen it.

The only star that I have seen claim the Hawks and claim to be a Hawks fan is the German.. Boris Koedjoe!!

[Diesel]

I absolutely agree with the catch 22 statement.  Fans in Atlanta won't support a loser without a savior and a Savior won't come here without a fan base unless drafted.  So the only way out of this viscous cycle is exactly what Ferry did....

 

 

You mean Tank for a Higher draft pick??

 

I know you're a Ferry fan, but look at your conditions...  We need a drafted star.  The top 3-5 picks in the draft is where you find such stars.  Therefore......

[IBelieveInFerry]

You mean Tank for a Higher draft pick??

 

I know you're a Ferry fan, but look at your conditions...  We need a drafted star.  The top 3-5 picks in the draft is where you find such stars.  Therefore......

I'm sorry, the top half of this draft may produce 1 All star 3-4 years from now...By that time Your Franchise is sold!  Look at Cleveland,  3 number one picks in how many years and still have nothing on that team to go along with Lebron???

[AHF]

I'm sorry, the top half of this draft may produce 1 All star 3-4 years from now...By that time Your Franchise is sold!  Look at Cleveland,  3 number one picks in how many years and still have nothing on that team to go along with Lebron???

 

Those lottery picks just landed Lebron.

 

Kyrie Irving - 2-Time All-Star, 2014 All-Star MVP

Andrew Wiggins - High All-Star potential

Tristan Thompson - Up and coming power forward

 

(Yes, it looks like they blew chunks on several of those picks but let's be real - Lebron is here primarily because of Wiggins and Irving offering more hope for the next 3-5 years than Wade and Bosh).

[IBelieveInFerry]

Those lottery picks just landed Lebron.

 

Kyrie Irving - 2-Time All-Star, 2014 All-Star MVP

Andrew Wiggins - High All-Star potential

Tristan Thompson - Up and coming power forward

 

(Yes, it looks like they blew chunks on several of those picks but let's be real - Lebron is here primarily because of Wiggins and Irving offering more hope for the next 3-5 years than Wade and Bosh).

That is absolutely false

[IBelieveInFerry]

Those lottery picks just landed Lebron.

 

Kyrie Irving - 2-Time All-Star, 2014 All-Star MVP

Andrew Wiggins - High All-Star potential

Tristan Thompson - Up and coming power forward

 

(Yes, it looks like they blew chunks on several of those picks but let's be real - Lebron is here primarily because of Wiggins and Irving offering more hope for the next 3-5 years than Wade and Bosh).

Have you even seen Wiggins play in college or in Summer league?  or are you just repeated what some scout said about him while in high school?

[AHF]

That is absolutely false

 

He did it because he loves Cleveland -- and it coincidently works out that he left Cleveland when they were tapped out of talent, joins Wade and Bosh when they were at the peak of their game, and then leaves Miami when Wade is falling apart and Bosh is a shell of his former self (10.8 rpg down to 6.6 rpg, for example) and returns to Cleveland when they have just re-upped for 5 years with a 2-time All-Star and a player considered one of the best prospects of the last decade.

 

Gosh - what a swell story.