Merged: Grantland - Free Agency Winners and Losers

[Guest]

I think we are absolutely able to land those types of middle-of-the-road players with overpay style contracts (which, IMO, describes both the rich Frye and rich Haward contracts).  We can get those guys without anything changing.  

 

The real issue is when we are offering basically the same amount of money as other teams and going after elite FAs who have their choice of destinations or who prioritize a shot at a championship over the highest priced contract.

Totally disagree on the first point. We didn't come close to overpaying for Paul and this appears to be what Danny is going with.

I agree on the second part, which is what every team faces. So it is not unique to Atlanta.

[Guest]

And hopefully my last point on this, but how exactly can Atlanta be considered a "loser" when they haven't lost anything? Practically speaking, they sent away Louis and Bebe but are bringing in Payne, Thabo and Baze. Seems like a large wash. I don't see the losses.

[Admin]

Bosh, D-Wade, and LeBron. Miami is notorious for inflating their attendance numbers as well.

But I guess that one was different somehow? Which is how a narrative works, one continues to retell the story each time to make sure the original point appears true. Even though there is a simpler explanation. Danny Ferry didn't offer more money with the exception of Pau Gasol.

And what star did Ferry miss out on this time?

 

Oh boy a narrative? You use the ONE time in history a group of stars have banded together to join a team as an example? AND they did it to play on South Beach. Please don't try and compare Atlanta to Miami as far as a destination city.  Plus Miami already had a title. But I guess that's part of the narrative you'd like to leave out? 

 

What star did he miss out on? How about Melo and LeBron this year. D12 last year. Who's it gonna be to turn us down or not even give us an interview next year? 

And hopefully my last point on this, but how exactly can Atlanta be considered a "loser" when they haven't lost anything? Practically speaking, they sent away Louis and Bebe but are bringing in Payne, Thabo and Baze. Seems like a large wash. I don't see the losses.

 

How are we a loser? We had up to 19 million (possibly) to spend and we've come away with Bazemore and Thabo. If that's not a free agency loser then I don't know what is. 

[Guest]

Oh boy a narrative? You use the ONE time in history a group of stars have banded together to join a team as an example? AND they did it to play on South Beach. Please don't try and compare Atlanta to Miami as far as a destination city.  Plus Miami already had a title. But I guess that's part of the narrative you'd like to leave out? 

 

What star did he miss out on? How about Melo and LeBron this year. D12 last year. Who's it gonna be to turn us down or not even give us an interview next year?

One example can disprove a theory, which is what I was doing. If I say "All Dogs have 4 legs" then one does not need to go out and count up all the dogs to see if this is true or not. It can easily be falsified by pointing to a dog with 3 legs.

One example does not prove a point. Which is what Zach Lowe does with the lazy analysis of Free Agents avoiding Atlanta because of crowd support. If that were the case, why do we see Hayward signing with Charlotte? Oh well err..because...umm....that one is different from .... <-a narrative. Or an ad hoc way to explain things. Zach Lowe is great at this. It makes for a fun and interesting read. But if you want knowledge, then avoid his discussion on these things.

[HawkItus]

@Dolfan23

 

If you look at attendance:

1986-87 Atlanta Hawks Attendance: 549,526 (8th of 23)

 

1987-88 Atlanta Hawks Attendance: 572,460 (8th of 23)

 

1988-89 Atlanta Hawks Attendance: 644,291 (11th of 25)

 

1989-90 Atlanta Hawks Attendance: 573,711 (18th of 27)

 

The bottom fell out in 1989-90 or did it?

 

2010-11 Atlanta Hawks Attendance: 641,596 (22nd of 30) 2012-13 Atlanta Hawks Attendance: 620,146 (26th of 30)

 

You are getting consistent support for the good teams, the stadium is just to big and the league expanded in my opinion.  Without a star you aren't getting new fans either.

[Admin]

One example can disprove a theory, which is what I was doing. If I say "All Dogs have 4 legs" then one does not need to go out and count up all the dogs to see if this is true or not. It can easily be falsified by pointing to a dog with 3 legs.

One example does not prove a point. Which is what Zach Lowe does with the lazy analysis of Free Agents avoiding Atlanta because of crowd support. If that were the case, why do we see Hayward signing with Charlotte? Oh well err..because...umm....that one is different from .... <-a narrative. Or an ad hoc way to explain things. Zach Lowe is great at this. It makes for a fun and interesting read. But if you want knowledge, then avoid his discussion on these things.

 

One exception is what proves the rule, isn't it? 

 

What did we see Hayward sign with Charlotte? 15 million dollars per season maybe?  Nobody else was gonna give that guy 15 million, just like nobody else was gonna give Parsons 15. 

[Admin]

@Dolfan23

 

If you look at attendance:

1986-87 Atlanta Hawks Attendance: 549,526 (8th of 23)

 

1987-88 Atlanta Hawks Attendance: 572,460 (8th of 23)

 

1988-89 Atlanta Hawks Attendance: 644,291 (11th of 25)

 

1989-90 Atlanta Hawks Attendance: 573,711 (18th of 27)

 

The bottom fell out in 1989-90 or did it?

 

2010-11 Atlanta Hawks Attendance: 641,596 (22nd of 30) 2012-13 Atlanta Hawks Attendance: 620,146 (26th of 30)

 

You are getting consistent support for the good teams, the stadium is just to big and the league expanded in my opinion.  Without a star you aren't getting new fans either.

 

We are getting consistently worse. This year we were 28th out of 30.  And you can't even begin to tell me that a city with how many millions of people can't fill up a small basketball arena, right? The Braves average 29,000+ fans per night for 81 games! We average HALF of that for HALF as many games. 

[Guest]

How are we a loser? We had up to 19 million (possibly) to spend and we've come away with Bazemore and Thabo. If that's not a free agency loser then I don't know what is.

Houston is a loser. They have less talent after this frenzy than before.

Washington is likely a loser. Lose Ariza and Booker but add Pierce? Yeah, you've lost talent there.

Sacramento is a loser. They lost Isaiah Thomas and added the lesser Darren Collison for more money.

Atlanta has been about the same. The Hawks don't lose their cap space. It isn't a "use it or lose it" type of thing.

Take some time and have patience. Don't spend all your money on Virtual Boys and Dunkaroos. But if you see some moon-shoes then by all means go for it. Or those vortex nerf footballs. Man, you can't ever have enough of those especially because the fins on the back of them always fall off. There's always that one kid who decides to throw the vortex by the tail instead of like a normal football and it ruins the fun for everyone.

[Guest]

One exception is what proves the rule, isn't it? 

 

What did we see Hayward sign with Charlotte? 15 million dollars per season maybe?  Nobody else was gonna give that guy 15 million, just like nobody else was gonna give Parsons 15.

I hate this phrase! It is misused at the same frequency as "begs the question" and I cannot stand them one bit! AAHH!

And you're getting at my point. The point is crowd support is like the 15th most important factor in Free Agency and Lowe is trying to pander that off as a reason? Please. Let's look at the things at the top like money and then look at who is in charge of that for the Hawks. A much simpler theory that will likely hold water.

[Admin]

I hate this phrase! It is misused at the same frequency as "begs the question" and I cannot stand them one bit! AAHH!

And you're getting at my point. The point is crowd support is like the 15th most important factor in Free Agency and Lowe is trying to pander that off as a reason? Please. Let's look at the things at the top like money and then look at who is in charge of that for the Hawks. A much simpler theory that will likely hold water.

 

How do we know that it's so low? Are there stats to back that up? I honestly think that playing in front of an embarrassingly empty arena night after night, having fans cheer for the opposing team, or playing playoff games on NBA TV would be a BIG deal to the upper tier of NBA players. That begs the question, what are the REAL reasons why teams with poor fan support struggle to land FA's unless they overpay for them? 

 

And glad to know that I now know of something else I can annoy you with. 

[Alex]

What if ownership let in a few hundred bums each night.  Sequester them in their own private cheering section so as to not be intermixed with people who have showered...

[Admin]

Houston is a loser. They have less talent after this frenzy than before.

Washington is likely a loser. Lose Ariza and Booker but add Pierce? Yeah, you've lost talent there.

Sacramento is a loser. They lost Isaiah Thomas and added the lesser Darren Collison for more money.

Atlanta has been about the same. The Hawks don't lose their cap space. It isn't a "use it or lose it" type of thing.

Take some time and have patience. Don't spend all your money on Virtual Boys and Dunkaroos. But if you see some moon-shoes then by all means go for it. Or those vortex nerf footballs. Man, you can't ever have enough of those especially because the fins on the back of them always fall off. There's always that one kid who decides to throw the vortex by the tail instead of like a normal football and it ruins the fun for everyone.

 

Just because other teams are losers in FA doesn't make me feel any better about the Hawks being a loser as well. 

 

I'm not interested in overpaying for marginal players like Hayward, Deng, Parsons, Ariza, etc. and that's been my stance from day 1 but when we have the money to sign a super duper star and we've got a good team to surround him with and we're a perennial playoff team... then you know there's something else afoul here. 

[Admin]

What if ownership let in a few hundred bums each night.  Sequester them in their own private cheering section so as to not be intermixed with people who have showered...

 

Better yet. What if ownership let all the negative nancies around here (ahem) and let you guys have your own section for cheap? 

 

[Alex]

Better yet. What if ownership let all the negative nancies around here (ahem) and let you guys have your own section for cheap?

Heck. Sign me up. Although I am in Colorado, so are they flying me out each home game or how would that work?

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[macdaddy]

What if ownership let in a few hundred bums each night.  Sequester them in their own private cheering section so as to not be intermixed with people who have showered...

 

They do.   Although they aren't bums.  I think they are students.   You think that whole section with the professionally made giant heads aren't paid to be there or at least given tickets.  

[macdaddy]

I think at this point its hard to say that ASG isn't largely to blame.   They've mismanaged the business end, developed a bad reputation, and done very little to market the team or their players.   I think they are turning it around.

 

I'll take it a step further too.  Whether you think they were good or bad at their jobs BK, Woody, and Joe were poor choices to rebuild your franchise on.   None of them had the personality or desire to market their team and ASG should have known that.   The Belkin bungle, the thrashers bungle, and the failed sale of the team and the resigning of "core" players that everyone had lost interest in years ago.  

 

How they got Bud to take this job i'll never know but i think this year will be a huge one in terms of turning this franchise around.   If you build it they will come.   We always want someone (fans and stars) to come and build it for us.   

[NBASupes]

I think at this point its hard to say that ASG isn't largely to blame.   They've mismanaged the business end, developed a bad reputation, and done very little to market the team or their players.   I think they are turning it around.

 

I'll take it a step further too.  Whether you think they were good or bad at their jobs BK, Woody, and Joe were poor choices to rebuild your franchise on.   None of them had the personality or desire to market their team and ASG should have known that.   The Belkin bungle, the thrashers bungle, and the failed sale of the team and the resigning of "core" players that everyone had lost interest in years ago.  

 

How they got Bud to take this job i'll never know but i think this year will be a huge one in terms of turning this franchise around.   If you build it they will come.   We always want someone (fans and stars) to come and build it for us.   

Joe was the best decision this franchise has made in the last 15 years. He was a 6th time All Star and potential HOF. Sorry but signing another PF who is even more undersized than the PF you are fronting at center to play PF isn't smart to me. It wasn't smart then and it's not smart now. Now with that being said, I understand you want talent around the talent you have. Sap at the very least has talent. 

[Guest]

Better yet. What if ownership let all the negative nancies around here (ahem) and let you guys have your own section for cheap? 

 

 

That's me with the Elvis hair-do.  Clearly I had a hard day.  Must've been a game vs. the Lakers.  I was sooo sick of the Kobe chants.

[Diesel]

I don't buy that. Other teams (like the Raptors) have sucked for years and have no problem selling out. The fans there just show up. We've discussed this countless times on here and we'll never agree, but the truth is that Atlanta will never support the Hawks throughout the regular season unless we're the best team in basketball or we have a super duper star. 

 

 

Maybe we disagree.  However, there's nothing to do in Toronto... and still Toronto gets major support from stars like Drake.  Our biggest supporter is Boris Koedjoe.  Moreover, there are some logistical problems and financial issues attached to going to games.   The Hawks do nothing to invite the college crowd.  It doesn't nothing to promote a family friendly (financial) atmosphere.  ASG has to understand that sometimes a loss at the gate + a good team = a better team in the future.

[Diesel]

If Atlanta gonna build around Horford, they need to build around him. Move him to PF. PnR/PnP with a lot of ball movement and feed him the rock. He had great efficiency on offense last year but his defense dropped off a bit. That's probably due to the lose of Smoove more than anything thought. As for him and Sap, their efficiency together wasn't good at all. I want that to improve but they are kinda redundant aside from Sap being more likely to draw fouls and score in more ways and Horf being better at movement, shooting, size, and athletic ability on offense. 

 

Horford nor Millsap has shown star power.  Atlanta needs a true to God star.  Somebody who fans can look at and say....  He is the Hawks.  Like Nique.  Like Deion.  Like Deke.    We haven't had that person who can just draw fans to the games since in his prime Nique.  Josh was the promise of that but his BBIQ was low. 

One of the reasons I like the Bazemore pick up was his energy and his likability.  He's not going to be the best player on the team, but he will make this team fun to watch even if he's on the bench.  This guy has the ikability of a star.