How many honestly think we make it past the 1st with this roster?

[macdaddy]

First, we are a combined 6-21 against those teams over the past 3 seasons.  Call me crazy, but I think these teams might be just a little better than we are.  Which would imply that they are in a different point in their team building cycle...as in much closer to contending than we are.  Especially Chicago who, without their All-NBA caliber player the past couple of seasons no less, is 9-2 against us.

 

More importantly, each of these teams features All-NBA quality talent.  With the exception of Golden State, each of those teams has TWO current or former All NBA starters.  To put it bluntly, what the f#$k would they be tanking for?  They don't need a lottery pick because they've already got elite talent - the same kind of players we are sitting around and hoping will fall into our "perfect" little nest.

 

Also, three of those teams play in the West (whom we were 10-20 against last year, BTW).  If either played in the East, they'd have likely been one of the top seeds and torched their 1st round opponent.

 

Lastly, of course the exit isn't the same.  Different players, coaches, roles...almost everything has changed.  A first round loss at the end of an era vs. beginning of an era is obviously not the same.  These are two different teams.  However, as the 1st and 2nd round losses pile up, the status-quo for the FRANCHISE will remain unchanged.

 

And as @ViperXX79 has outlined, and many of us have said over and over, we're painting ourselves into a corner with our strategy.  Given our free agent woes and our trade options, we don't have the luxury of ignoring ANY method of talent acquisition - let alone a method that has proven time and time again to lead to the acquisition of elite talent.

(And please note that I said nothing about championships in that last sentence)

 

 

Those all sound like excuses to me for teams not getting it done in the playoffs.    None of that matters if you don't advance in the playoffs.   I mean the Bulls are just on the treadmill man.   While they did make one ECF they have four first round exits and one second round exit in the last 6 years.   I guess their excuse is that their best player was hurt all last season but that's just more BS excuses.

[Wretch]

Those all sound like excuses to me for teams not getting it done in the playoffs.    None of that matters if you don't advance in the playoffs.   I mean the Bulls are just on the treadmill man.   While they did make one ECF they have four first round exits and one second round exit in the last 6 years.   I guess their excuse is that their best player was hurt all last season but that's just more BS excuses.

Well...

I, and surely most every other basketball fan in the universe, would much rather have their "excuses" than ours.  We've never even sniffed the ECF's by the way.  I would love to "not get it done" like that...and be stuck on the contender treadmill.

Dude, you are an extreme optimist.  To me, that's the same as an extreme pessimist.  Both lines of thinking are plagued by a biased point of view and unrealistic expectations.

[macdaddy]

Well...

I, and surely most every other basketball fan in the universe, would much rather have their "excuses" than ours.  We've never even sniffed the ECF's by the way.  I would love to "not get it done" like that...and be stuck on the contender treadmill.

Dude, you are an extreme optimist.  To me, that's the same as an extreme pessimist.  Both lines of thinking are plagued by a biased point of view and unrealistic expectations.

 

The whole point of my sarcasm is that you're offering up a multitude of reasons, many of them very valid, why other teams are on the right track or better than us while at the same time saying that none of the Hawks reasons for optimism are valid because we still had a first round exit.

 

I'm not sure how thinking that we are heading in the right direction, based on many facts already presented, is being an extreme optimist.  It's not like I'm predicting a championship this year.   What in any of my arguments is extreme?   What I find extreme is 'we will never land a star', 'lottery is the only way to a championship',  'Ferry has taken the wrong path and is destined to fail'.   These are extreme arguments.   

[Duff_Man]

We were about a minute away from doing it with way less last season.

[Wretch]

I think the Hawks' have reason to be optimistic...within limits.  I think that limit is a very good 2nd round series...  That would be further than any Hawks team has been except for the 88/89 Hawks.  In the end, it's still falling short of getting us to the ECF's.  I've watched the game for 30 years and it's been a lot of fun watching the semi-final ECF/WCF duels.  We deserve to see our team there, but as each 1st and 2nd round loss piles onto the heap...we become more and more obscure.  Back in the 90's, I listened to people talk about how our team was dull, irrelevant, and not a threat to do anything...to be in the EXACT same situation 17 years later is a slap in my face.

 

We're not headed in the right direction and it's not JUST about the lottery.  I don't understand why you guys can't see that...

 

Talent drives teams to the conference finals.  Why is this still necessary to discuss?  Where are the examples of teams that make the ECF's and Finals without All-NBA caliber talent?  We need that.  We are not going to beat Chicago or Cleveland anytime soon without it.  Moreover, there will ALWAYS be teams like that.  You can't just ignore them, you have to BEAT them.  We have not demonstrated an ability to do that in the past 20 years...no team like ours has.

 

How do you propose to get that talent?

Free agency?  They don't want to come here.

Trades?  We don't have the assets to make it happen and we're hesitant to even mention the guys that MIGHT get something done.

Draft?  Once in a blue moon, you will see a Rondo type player emerge out of the WHOLE of the draft outside of the lottery.

 

If we don't have elite players to trade (and hold onto our best assets like sacred cows), if we're not popular in free agency, if we don't have lottery picks to trade....how do we expect to be any better than the 1st or 2nd round team that we currently are?  That is the most realistic expectation.  

 

ECF's or lottery are both unrealistic.

[macdaddy]

It's a process and people are attributing attitudes to Ferry that are really attitudes of some of the fans.   No one knows that Ferry isn't willing to part with any player on the roster for a good deal.   We've had two offseasons where we didn't sign big name free agents but there is only a very small number available in any given season.   It doesn't mean the guys available next year won't consider us.  Especially if we continue in a positive direction.   

 

Eliminate the tank/don't tank argument for a minute as that's been beat to death.  So far there is no evidence that Ferry believes we can succeed without star talent.   Why would he want to try that anyway if there were other options?   I guarantee he knows more about what he's doing then any of us.   He's worked at Cleveland with Lebron and SA with Duncan.   You think he doesn't recognize the winning that comes from having stars like that?   

[ViperXX79]

Let's see. We took the 1 seed to 7 games last year (should have won) WITHOUT Horford. We will be better all around this year. In the Eastern Conference?? Where does this lack of optimism come from?

 

Why do people keep using this 7 games example like it had some kind of bigger meaning?  Indiana had already started to show cracks during the end of the regular season and had locker room issues as well.  But of course at the end of the day their superstar put the team on his back and refused to lose.  Congrats we missed an opportunity to beat a team that wasn't playing very good basketball at the time.  Maybe we should hang a banner for it...

[ViperXX79]

How do you propose to get that talent?

Free agency?  They don't want to come here.

Trades?  We don't have the assets to make it happen and we're hesitant to even mention the guys that MIGHT get something done.

Draft?  Once in a blue moon, you will see a Rondo type player emerge out of the WHOLE of the draft outside of the lottery.

 

If we don't have elite players to trade (and hold onto our best assets like sacred cows), if we're not popular in free agency, if we don't have lottery picks to trade....how do we expect to be any better than the 1st or 2nd round team that we currently are?  That is the most realistic expectation.  

 

ECF's or lottery are both unrealistic.

 

The problem is that no one can answer any of these questions without using the tired rhetoric that features such words as "process", "system", "cap flexibility", etc.  Lot's of words but there's no new idea's when you have next to no real way of acquiring significant assets outside of hitting a grandslam in the later end of the draft which we have as much of a chance of doing as getting past the 2nd round of the playoffs.

[anxietyreigns]

We could finish anywhere 3 through 8, so matchup would determine my thoughts.

So many variables too.

I think we have a 50% chance, how's that?

[Wretch]

It's a process and people are attributing attitudes to Ferry that are really attitudes of some of the fans.   No one knows that Ferry isn't willing to part with any player on the roster for a good deal.   We've had two offseasons where we didn't sign big name free agents but there is only a very small number available in any given season.   It doesn't mean the guys available next year won't consider us.  Especially if we continue in a positive direction.   

 

Eliminate the tank/don't tank argument for a minute as that's been beat to death.  So far there is no evidence that Ferry believes we can succeed without star talent.   Why would he want to try that anyway if there were other options?   I guarantee he knows more about what he's doing then any of us.   He's worked at Cleveland with Lebron and SA with Duncan.   You think he doesn't recognize the winning that comes from having stars like that?   

 

It's not like I haven't watched the NBA for 30 years.  I know the process.  I don't expect immediate results.  I can however, give you the likely outcome of any given scenario with enough variables.  There's enough to be discouraged by Ferry's approach to team building.

 

Let's talk about Horford.  

 

What's his value?  You're not getting a Tier 1 talent straight up for him.  It would likely take some combination of Horford/Sap/Teague + picks to get a guy that could produce above his level.  In which case, we would essentially be taking a step back to add talent.  Danny Ferry won't do that, because taking a step back means missing the playoffs.  Ferry has given NO indication that he's willing to risk a bad season.  So guess what?  There are no Horford for [Lottery Pick X] going down.  No Horford for [young, but unproven talent] going down.  Nope.  What you see Ferry doing is patching up the holes in the team around a core of Horford/Sap/Teague.  

 

Moreover, the closer Al gets to the end of his contract, the lower his value dips.  So, the prime opportunity to deal him would have been prior to the start of this season.  Horford isn't going anywhere.  

 

Only TWO offseasons of free agent misses?

 

You need to check your math on that.  Last I checked, our last major free agent signing of an established superstar was Dikembe Mutombo Mpolondo Mukamba Jean-Jacques Wamutombo...a whopping 18 years ago (and yes, I know his full name off the top of my head lol).  We've had the "dull, uninteresting, and impotent" stigma since Rick Fox dissed us for the Lakers.  NOTHING will change that stigma, and draw the attention of elite free agents, short of becoming a legitimate contender.  We require elite talent before we will be considered a legitimate contender.  The arguement makes itself.

 

Ferry's thinking...

 

I agree that he he probably knows we need elite talent.  But I think he has two problems.  I believe problem #1 is that he either has a mandate from the A$G to keep us competitive/in the playoffs or he genuinely has a disinterest in a losing season.  Either will keep us from securing the highly coveted lottery picks that we honestly need to make a blockbuster deal (or groom into our own elite talent).

 

Problem #2 is that he's likely banking on one or more of these kinds of home runs:

 

Joe Johnson - unproven RFA, unmatched for ridiculous money

Chauncey Billups/Ben Wallace - an overlooked talent that slips through the cracks and blossoms

Kobe Bryant - a miraculous trade of a proven vet for a late lottery pick that becomes a HoF player

Rajon Rondo/Tony Parker/Manu Ginobili - an equally miraculous pick outside of the lottery that becomes an All NBA player

 

His best bet is on the JJ RFA...but with a hefty price tag on it, I don't see how this is less risky than gambling on a lottery pick.  The real difference is one you have to have a losing season to get...which we're not doing.

 

Ferry was a former NBA player...so that means he knows what he's doing?

 

Hmm...that's funny.  That's the attitude Billy Knight had when he walked around telling everybody they had no right to question him.  He certainly knew what he was doing. {/sarcasm}

 

The problem is that no one can answer any of these questions without using the tired rhetoric that features such words as "process", "system", "cap flexibility", etc.  Lot's of words but there's no new idea's when you have next to no real way of acquiring significant assets outside of hitting a grandslam in the later end of the draft which we have as much of a chance of doing as getting past the 2nd round of the playoffs.

 

...and that grandslam has about a 97% fail rate outside of the lottery.  

[AHF]

Co-sign Wretch's posts.  We aren't contenders and don't have a path that is apparent right now to move beyond our second round playoff cap.  At the very minimum we need to start flipping some of our players for draft picks like the Rockets did to get the lottery assets on the low % chance that some team drafts so well that it has to deal a top 5 player at a particular position in the NBA because it doesn't want to pay for that player or we just need to settle in to enjoy the same success we did under BK.

 

Great coaching and system without elite talent translates to the career of George Karl.  You knew he was going to drag his team into a pretty good record but they weren't going to be holding any trophies -- even when he had guys with higher career peaks than anyone on our team.

Edited August 22, 2014 by AHF

[Nicholasp27]

But this is the problem. You say the proof is on the court and the team has produced the same exact results for the better part of a decade. How many more years of 1st round exits have to occur before the franchise decides it's actually time to tear the treadmill down and figure out a way to actually get better results? The names on the jerseys and the coaching staff seem to change but the results don't. Seems to me there's clearly a missing piece and we aren't willing to take the necessary steps to obtain it.

They ARE figuring out a way to get better results; it's just not the way that YOU think they should do it

Players, coaches, scouts, media are all taking notice and the Hawks are held in MUCH higher esteem than in the past

The team was second in the league in assists in year one of the system...they are on their way but it takes time

In the end, maybe it doesn't work and we don't get past second round this decade...but it's not the same path as before even if it's not YOUR preferred path

[Nicholasp27]

We DO have an All-NBA talent: Al Horford

He ALREADY made the all-nba team a few years ago and now he is better and should be in his prime and even better the next few years

[Guest]

They ARE figuring out a way to get better results; it's just not the way that YOU think they should do it

Players, coaches, scouts, media are all taking notice and the Hawks are held in MUCH higher esteem than in the past

The team was second in the league in assists in year one of the system...they are on their way but it takes time

In the end, maybe it doesn't work and we don't get past second round this decade...but it's not the same path as before even if it's not YOUR preferred path

 

Yeah but sports are results-driven.  It doesn't matter how we do it along the way.  It only matters where we end up.  Don't get me wrong, I really like Budz and how he has us playing.  However, if he has us last in assists and our flow looked terrible but we advanced to the ECF I have a feeling everyone would be on board with that.

 

Plus, we've been top 10-12 in assists even through the clogged toilet offense years so is it possible that's getting overblown?

 

Also, Al was 3rd team all-NBA almost 4 seasons ago.  I'm not sure we can hang our hats on that in 2014-15.  I think the "all-NBA caliber talent" thing relates more to the notion of having a guy that can take a game over/will us to a win on a consistent basis.  Al's not that guy.

[noble]

Maybe we make it past the first round...either way does it really matter? We are still a middle of the pack team who won't get a superstar in the draft or FA and will most likely be a similar team next year too.

[TheFuzz]

The problem is that no one can answer any of these questions without using the tired rhetoric that features such words as "process", "system", "cap flexibility", etc.  Lot's of words but there's no new idea's when you have next to no real way of acquiring significant assets outside of hitting a grandslam in the later end of the draft which we have as much of a chance of doing as getting past the 2nd round of the playoffs.

 

There's plenty of irony here. Granted, I hear what you're saying (to a degree), but you do know that some of you guys are using similar buzzwords like "superstar" and repeating over and over that "we've never made it past the 2nd round" when it's so much more complicated than "lottery" or "1st round exit."

 

Look, I for one believe we have a legitimate, puncher's shot at the ECF as we currently stand. I do. Call me crazy, call me a homer, I honestly think it's crazy that some people don't see what I'm seeing. That is, I repeat, AS WE CURRENTLY STAND. Has Ferry shown to stick to things that aren't working? No, not yet. We didn't have a lot of turnover this offseason, traded away Lou and we wiffed on Deng (the first 2 failures of Ferry's Atlanta career, IMO), but Ferry is not one to sit on his hands.

 

Furthermore (and this is a side point), someone please tell me what defines a "superstar?" Is it someone who can put the team on their back, consistently, to win games? If so, we've got Lebron, Durant and CP3. That's it. None of them won the championship last year. Is Kevin Love a "superstar?" He's a damn good player, but he has issues creating offense for himself and others, similar to Horford. Is Curry a superstar? Irving? Maybe. But in that case, who's better, Love or Curry?

 

I've heard some mention TD putting the team on his back for a couple of games in the finals last year. Not to diminish Duncan, he's a damn good player and still probably the best C in the game, but there are plenty of players who can put the team on their back for a couple of games. Hell, Teague did it for us last year. No, I'm not saying Teague is as good as Duncan. My point is that the talent in the NBA is DEEP, so I do think our system can win us a championship with the caveat that we do need plenty more talent. I don't think the talent between the Spurs and the Thunder, from the 1-10 man, was far off. Sure, one team had Durant, Westbrook, Ibaka, but the Spurs were MUCH deeper. The difference is one coach annihilated the other by making use of those guys on the bottom of his roster.

 

I believe we've got a coach who can do that. Now, the process is finding some more talent that our coach can use. If we had added Deng and he played to his potential, plus one other piece, I believe we'd be shoe ins for the ECF. Again, we missed this offseason. But we're close, closer than we've been in a long time.

[Wretch]

There's plenty of irony here. Granted, I hear what you're saying (to a degree), but you do know that some of you guys are using similar buzzwords like "superstar" and repeating over and over that "we've never made it past the 2nd round" when it's so much more complicated than "lottery" or "1st round exit."

 

Look, I for one believe we have a legitimate, puncher's shot at the ECF as we currently stand. I do. Call me crazy, call me a homer, I honestly think it's crazy that some people don't see what I'm seeing. That is, I repeat, AS WE CURRENTLY STAND. Has Ferry shown to stick to things that aren't working? No, not yet. We didn't have a lot of turnover this offseason, traded away Lou and we wiffed on Deng (the first 2 failures of Ferry's Atlanta career, IMO), but Ferry is not one to sit on his hands.

 

Furthermore (and this is a side point), someone please tell me what defines a "superstar?" Is it someone who can put the team on their back, consistently, to win games? If so, we've got Lebron, Durant and CP3. That's it. None of them won the championship last year. Is Kevin Love a "superstar?" He's a damn good player, but he has issues creating offense for himself and others, similar to Horford. Is Curry a superstar? Irving? Maybe. But in that case, who's better, Love or Curry?

 

I've heard some mention TD putting the team on his back for a couple of games in the finals last year. Not to diminish Duncan, he's a damn good player and still probably the best C in the game, but there are plenty of players who can put the team on their back for a couple of games. Hell, Teague did it for us last year. No, I'm not saying Teague is as good as Duncan. My point is that the talent in the NBA is DEEP, so I do think our system can win us a championship with the caveat that we do need plenty more talent. I don't think the talent between the Spurs and the Thunder, from the 1-10 man, was far off. Sure, one team had Durant, Westbrook, Ibaka, but the Spurs were MUCH deeper. The difference is one coach annihilated the other by making use of those guys on the bottom of his roster.

 

I believe we've got a coach who can do that. Now, the process is finding some more talent that our coach can use. If we had added Deng and he played to his potential, plus one other piece, I believe we'd be shoe ins for the ECF. Again, we missed this offseason. But we're close, closer than we've been in a long time.

 

You're certainly entitled to your optimism.  That's good as a fan.  However, if you truly believe this team is capable of making the ECF's...then that's really the end of the conversation here.  I'm not at all crazy for thinking that Chicago is a terrible matchup for us WITHOUT Rose or that we will have no answer for a trio of Love/Lebron/Irving.  But forget these two brick walls for a moment...

 

Are we really THAT confident that we're head and shoulders above Miami, Charlotte, Washington, and Toronto?  I mean, I like our chances against those teams...but I'm not going to sit here and act like it's a given that we'll beat them out on the season or a playoff series.  

 

What are we basing this on?  A 16-13 record with Horford last season that puts us around 45 wins and a 5th/6th seeded finish?  A 1st round loss to a sloppy Pacers team?

 

"Superstar"

I'm so tired of that word.  As fans who have watched the game for decades, do we REALLY have to spell this out?   Really?  How we are having this conversation in 2014 is simply blowing my mind.  To me, defining what constitutes "superstar" is unnecessary and leads to pointless debates over minutia.

 

There are guys that are simply unstoppable.  They are so good that it opens up the game for others.  Contenders typically have a guy like that, they have a guy (or two) like Horford, they have the best specialists to fill in the blanks.  You can't seriously expect to beat these kinds of teams without elite talent.  We can say that there are only a few really good players in the league.  But even if that were true, which it isn't...we still have to go THROUGH the few teams that have them.

 

In the end, it's the lack of that talent that separates us from the contenders.  That's what keeps us out of the ECF's...and until we are a legitimate threat to get there, nothing has changed.  No matter how pretty we look moving the ball or how smart Danny Ferry is or how hard we work or how high character our guys are.

 

For the last time, the answer isn't the "lottery"

The question is "HOW DO WE GET OUT OF THE 2ND ROUND?"  We need more talent.  Among other things (like rebounding) we lack consistent, reliable, prolific scoring.  You will only get that from a particular kind of player.  "HOW DO WE GET THAT PLAYER?"

 

We suck at free agency

Our non-lottery draft picks will have a 97% fail rate (in terms of netting a "star")

We're not trading our productive vets for young players with potential

We're not trading our productive vets for lottery picks

We will not have lottery picks to trade for elite talent

We don't have elite talent to swap for elite talent

We're selective about finding the right "kind" of guys for this team

 

But I digress into the ages old conversation.  I'm done here...but I will say one more thing.  It's gonna be some kinda fun looking back at these conversations. lol  I sincerely hope that I am wrong about every point that I've made.

[ViperXX79]

You're certainly entitled to your optimism.  That's good as a fan.  However, if you truly believe this team is capable of making the ECF's...then that's really the end of the conversation here.  I'm not at all crazy for thinking that Chicago is a terrible matchup for us WITHOUT Rose or that we will have no answer for a trio of Love/Lebron/Irving.  But forget these two brick walls for a moment...

 

Are we really THAT confident that we're head and shoulders above Miami, Charlotte, Washington, and Toronto?  I mean, I like our chances against those teams...but I'm not going to sit here and act like it's a given that we'll beat them out on the season or a playoff series.  

 

What are we basing this on?  A 16-13 record with Horford last season that puts us around 45 wins and a 5th/6th seeded finish?  A 1st round loss to a sloppy Pacers team?

 

"Superstar"

I'm so tired of that word.  As fans who have watched the game for decades, do we REALLY have to spell this out?   Really?  How we are having this conversation in 2014 is simply blowing my mind.  To me, defining what constitutes "superstar" is unnecessary and leads to pointless debates over minutia.

 

There are guys that are simply unstoppable.  They are so good that it opens up the game for others.  Contenders typically have a guy like that, they have a guy (or two) like Horford, they have the best specialists to fill in the blanks.  You can't seriously expect to beat these kinds of teams without elite talent.  We can say that there are only a few really good players in the league.  But even if that were true, which it isn't...we still have to go THROUGH the few teams that have them.

 

In the end, it's the lack of that talent that separates us from the contenders.  That's what keeps us out of the ECF's...and until we are a legitimate threat to get there, nothing has changed.  No matter how pretty we look moving the ball or how smart Danny Ferry is or how hard we work or how high character our guys are.

 

For the last time, the answer isn't the "lottery"

The question is "HOW DO WE GET OUT OF THE 2ND ROUND?"  We need more talent.  Among other things (like rebounding) we lack consistent, reliable, prolific scoring.  You will only get that from a particular kind of player.  "HOW DO WE GET THAT PLAYER?"

 

We suck at free agency

Our non-lottery draft picks will have a 97% fail rate (in terms of netting a "star")

We're not trading our productive vets for young players with potential

We're not trading our productive vets for lottery picks

We will not have lottery picks to trade for elite talent

We don't have elite talent to swap for elite talent

We're selective about finding the right "kind" of guys for this team

 

But I digress into the ages old conversation.  I'm done here...but I will say one more thing.  It's gonna be some kinda fun looking back at these conversations. lol  I sincerely hope that I am wrong about every point that I've made.

 

 

No one could of said it any better.  Legendary post, sir.

[TheFuzz]

You're certainly entitled to your optimism.  That's good as a fan.  However, if you truly believe this team is capable of making the ECF's...then that's really the end of the conversation here.  I'm not at all crazy for thinking that Chicago is a terrible matchup for us WITHOUT Rose or that we will have no answer for a trio of Love/Lebron/Irving.  But forget these two brick walls for a moment...

 

Are we really THAT confident that we're head and shoulders above Miami, Charlotte, Washington, and Toronto?  I mean, I like our chances against those teams...but I'm not going to sit here and act like it's a given that we'll beat them out on the season or a playoff series.  

 

What are we basing this on?  A 16-13 record with Horford last season that puts us around 45 wins and a 5th/6th seeded finish?  A 1st round loss to a sloppy Pacers team?

 

No, I don't think we're a shoe in for the ECF.but I think we have at least as much a shot as teams like Washington. That's my point. And I also believe we're one solid FA signing from being as good as Chicago. Don't get me wrong, Chicago is good, but I feel they're getting a bit overrated. We'll find out soon enough.

 

As for the rest of your post, that's been discussed plenty. Needless to say, we've got some differing views on the whole thing

[Wretch]

No, I don't think we're a shoe in for the ECF.but I think we have at least as much a shot as teams like Washington. That's my point. And I also believe we're one solid FA signing from being as good as Chicago. Don't get me wrong, Chicago is good, but I feel they're getting a bit overrated. We'll find out soon enough.

 

As for the rest of your post, that's been discussed plenty. Needless to say, we've got some differing views on the whole thing

 

We do have as much a shot as a team like Washington.  Include Charlotte, Toronto, and maybe Miami too.  But you're not really making a case here...  This is what's known as "the middle of the pack."  Ahead of lottery teams, behind the contenders...and we're not favorites against any of them.

 

Saying Chicago is overrated is not a stretch.  I can actually understand the reasoning there.  All that matters though is that Chicago dominates us.  We'd need a significant free agent pick up for sure to be at their level, but again...we're not differing on opinions on that.  Were we differ is your optimism about it...

 

Problem #1 is a player like Deng is not enough of a difference maker to bump us ahead of Chicago.

Problem #2...?  He didn't sign here.

 

Guys like him are also looking for a chance to contend.  They're not coming here to MAYBE make us one of the better middle of the pack teams.  Our only options are to over pay and hope they come, or throw a little change at a guy like Thabo.  I'm not being negative or pessimistic.  This is the reality of our situation.