C-Viv was just on NBA radio

[Admin]

And now let's see you try to discount his career high in points and FG%

 

Errmm how about easily his highest usage % of his career? Did you forget that Smoove and JJ were gone and it was basically his team last year since Teague hadn't stepped up yet and Millsap was trying to find his role.  

 

And he's always been a good shooter. This is his 4th season of 55% or better so a 56.7% isn't exactly much of a stretch nor is it indicative of what he'd have done over the remainder of the season had he not gotten hurt.

[Admin]

Nah I think you are just beaten up from the injury let downs. Even if he can get back to 90% All it would greatly help the team

 

I don't disagree that he helps the team, but look at our W-L record with and without Al. It's not much of a difference. In fact I honestly believe we would be as good with Jordan Hill or Zaza starting at C in his place. Hell Zaza already proved that once when we didn't miss a beat without Al for almost the whole season.

[Afro]

All these people disagreeing with Dolfan, what do you expect?

He's not saying anything illogical. Al is a 14/9 guy. Thats not far from what he is now.

Are yall saying once he heals he's magically going to start scoring 18ppg?

[IheartVolt]

All these people disagreeing with Dolfan, what do you expect?

He's not saying anything illogical. Al is a 14/9 guy. Thats not far from what he is now.

Are yall saying once he heals he's magically going to start scoring 18ppg?

I am with Dolfan. Its not his scoring that concerns me , its his defense and boards. That's where we need him to improve

[High5]

It is meaningful when it's in range of his career norms. For his career he's a 14 / 9 / 1 guy. This season he's 13 / 6 / 1.5.  It's reasonable to think his rebounds will go up a bit but outside of that, nothing is going to change. And the chances that he remains healthy after missing 2 of the last 3 seasons and has never played a full season are slim to none. 

 

I wish I had your crystal ball. Horford was better than 17/10/3/1/1 just two seasons ago. Maybe the injury will permanently keep him knocked down a peg, but no one knows for sure. 

All these people disagreeing with Dolfan, what do you expect?

He's not saying anything illogical. Al is a 14/9 guy. Thats not far from what he is now.

Are yall saying once he heals he's magically going to start scoring 18ppg?

 

Do you mean like that 18.6 PPG he was scoring last season? 

[Sothron]

All these people disagreeing with Dolfan, what do you expect?

He's not saying anything illogical. Al is a 14/9 guy. Thats not far from what he is now.

Are yall saying once he heals he's magically going to start scoring 18ppg?

 

 

He was already doing that last year. Al is an efficient enough scorer that with enough shots he could easily average 20 a game. If healthy which frankly at this point I don't think he's capable of being. He's had two freak injuries to both sides of his body. It just seems like a genetic failing at this point that may happen routinely. I don't want to invest in that.

[Afro]

I am with Dolfan. Its not his scoring that concerns me , its his defense and boards. That's where we need him to improve

I agree, but at a certain point it become unrealistic. Sure. He might get back to 9 RPG. But he's still going to struggle against big guys. He did before, and like Dolfan says, he's gotten weaker since the injuries. I dont see defense being a strength for him. But we can use all the improvement we can get.

[Afro]

I wish I had your crystal ball. Horford was better than 17/10/3/1/1 just two seasons ago. Maybe the injury will permanently keep him knocked down a peg, but no one knows for sure.

Do you mean like that 18.6 PPG he was scoring last season?

Dolfan has already addressed this and you ignored it, so I'm not going to waste my time on it either.

[Admin]

I am with Dolfan. Its not his scoring that concerns me , its his defense and boards. That's where we need him to improve

 

Agreed his rebounding has to and probably will come back up to his career averages. His defense isn't that much worse than it's been but he's never been a lock down defender either. 

[Admin]

I wish I had your crystal ball. Horford was better than 17/10/3/1/1 just two seasons ago. Maybe the injury will permanently keep him knocked down a peg, but no one knows for sure. 

 

Do you mean like that 18.6 PPG he was scoring last season? 

 

Oiye. Let's just revisit this after the season when we'll all see whether or not he's magically back to the player he was prior to being the 1st player in NBA history to tear both of his pecs. 

[DS17Fanboy]

All these people disagreeing with Dolfan, what do you expect?

He's not saying anything illogical. Al is a 14/9 guy. Thats not far from what he is now.

Are yall saying once he heals he's magically going to start scoring 18ppg?

By this logic Nowitzki is just a 22 and 8 guy. While I think you should judge such caliber players by their prime, where Nowitzki was a 26 and 10 guy. A prime where Horford should be getting at soon regarding his age and regarding he missed the last season.

 

And maybe more importantly that 22 and 8 guy, now a 21 and 5 guy, still stretches the floor, is most effective in the high pick and roll, draws allot of double-teams and plays very well out of them, and gets you stuff when nothing else works out of his post-game.

 

Just stats is very misleading.

 

Al Horford has many such game impacting qualities that dont show up in stats as well.

[High5]

Dolfan has already addressed this and you ignored it, so I'm not going to waste my time on it either.

 

You scoffed at the idea of him scoring 18 PPG when he was scoring 18.6 PPG last season. It seemed like you were unaware of that fact so I chimed in. I'm not sure what I ignored. Sorry. 

[Admin]

By this logic Nowitzki is just a 22 and 8 guy. While I think you should judge such caliber players by their prime, where Nowitzki was a 26 and 10 guy. A prime where Horford should be getting at soon regarding his age and regarding he missed the last season.

 

And maybe more importantly that 22 and 8 guy, now a 21 and 5 guy, still stretches the floor, is most effective in the high pick and roll, draws allot of double-teams and plays very well out of them, and gets you stuff when nothing else works out of his post-game.

 

Just stats is very misleading.

 

Al Horford has many such game impacting qualities that dont show up in stats as well.

 

That's a good argument if it weren't for the fact that outside of rebounding, Horford is pretty much right at his career averages. 

 

And I still would like to hear a single person debate the fact that our W-L record doesn't change much with or without Al. That's the true sign of whether or not someone is a game changer. 

You scoffed at the idea of him scoring 18 PPG when he was scoring 18.6 PPG last season. It seemed like you were unaware of that fact so I chimed in. I'm not sure what I ignored. Sorry. 

 

Maybe I missed it but did you respond to the fact that his usage was easily the highest of his career last year? So obviously his PPG are going to increase, that's just logical for someone who's a very effective shooter. PPG is pretty much the worst stat you can use to prove a point about a player. 

[High5]

Oiye. Let's just revisit this after the season when we'll all see whether or not he's magically back to the player he was prior to being the 1st player in NBA history to tear both of his pecs. 

 

lol you don't have to get so agitated and snarky whenever someone disagrees with you. I'm not saying he's going to return to All Star form this season. I just don't agree with using the last 3 "seasons" to prove some downward trend in his ability and then speaking in absolutes when there's no way anyone can know. That's all I was saying. 

[macdaddy]

That's a good argument if it weren't for the fact that outside of rebounding, Horford is pretty much right at his career averages. 

 

And I still would like to hear a single person debate the fact that our W-L record doesn't change much with or without Al. That's the true sign of whether or not someone is a game changer. 

 

Maybe I missed it but did you respond to the fact that his usage was easily the highest of his career last year? So obviously his PPG are going to increase, that's just logical for someone who's a very effective shooter. PPG is pretty much the worst stat you can use to prove a point about a player. 

 

We were 16-13 with Horford last year and finished 38-44.   What kind of debate you looking for?   16-13 with,  22-28 without?   Yeah no difference.

[Admin]

lol you don't have to get so agitated and snarky whenever someone disagrees with you. I'm not saying he's going to return to All Star form this season. I just don't agree with using the last 3 "seasons" to prove some downward trend in his ability and then speaking in absolutes when there's no way anyone can know. That's all I was saying. 

 

How am I being snarky? I'm just getting tired of having to repeat myself (not just directed at you). And I'm not speaking in absolutes either, I'm speaking in terms of what I expect based on his career numbers and based on the fact that he's getting older and has had 2 major injuries in 3 years. Based on those facts I just think it's highly probable that we're seeing Al as good as he's likely to get again. 

[Admin]

We were 16-13 with Horford last year and finished 38-44.   What kind of debate you looking for?   16-13 with,  22-28 without?   Yeah no difference.

 

Yeah no difference, except we missed DMC and Korver for long stretches without Al, I believe we were 1-11 without them at one point and Teague played some of the worst ball of his career for 2.5 months... but yeah that was only because of Al.

 

How about the first year when we were as good or better with Zaza replacing Al?  

[Afro]

By this logic Nowitzki is just a 22 and 8 guy. While I think you should judge such caliber players by their prime, where Nowitzki was a 26 and 10 guy. A prime where Horford should be getting at soon regarding his age and regarding he missed the last season.

And maybe more importantly that 22 and 8 guy, now a 21 and 5 guy, still stretches the floor, is most effective in the high pick and roll, draws allot of double-teams and plays very well out of them, and gets you stuff when nothing else works out of his post-game.

Just stats is very misleading.

Al Horford has many such game impacting qualities that dont show up in stats as well.

If AL develops all the moves dirk has I'll be ecstatic lol.

Offensively AL isn't far off from what he's always been. So I don't see where I'm supposed to expect improvement on the offensive end? I guess if his usage goes up, and with his stamina, I guess that could happen, but I dont see other ways that his injuries are hurting him offensively. Getting to 100% isn't going to turn him into a banger all the sudden with 10 different moves in the paint.

I'm not saying he won't get better. I think he can. I was just asking why people were disagreeing with Dolfan when he didn't say anything crazy.

[High5]

Maybe I missed it but did you respond to the fact that his usage was easily the highest of his career last year? So obviously his PPG are going to increase, that's just logical for someone who's a very effective shooter. PPG is pretty much the worst stat you can use to prove a point about a player. 

 

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. Someone laughed at the idea of Horford scoring 18 PPG. I pointed out that he was scoring 18.6 PPG last season. Obviously usage impacts the amount of points he's going to score. Isn't that generally how it works for everyone? I don't see how this is a slight against Horford. 

[Admin]

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. Someone laughed at the idea of Horford scoring 18 PPG. I pointed out that he was scoring 18.6 PPG last season. Obviously usage impacts the amount of points he's going to score. Isn't that generally how it works for everyone? I don't see how this is a slight against Horford. 

 

It's not a slight against Horford, it's just stating for the sake of the thread that using PPG as an argument for a player being better or worse isn't a good one when usage plays a big role in a PPG change.