PATHETIC!!!

[jezmund]

This team is so unbelievably sorry. I'm actually embarassed to say that I watched a lot of the game. We need a firesale beginning with Stotts/JT/Jax.....everybody!

[sd79]

7 losses in a row. Stotts should be gone by monday. Let Whoopie Goldberg coach the Hawks. She did a pretty good job with the Knicks in that Movie. :-)

Hopefully AOL lets Knight do his job. It's really time to get rid of some players. Jax is the first one on my [censored]-list. Can't even shoot 30% but keeps shooting... what a dumb ass!

[JTFan31]

I agree this is just horrendous. This team is worse than the 2000-2001 Hawks. I think the worse Hawks team since I have been watching the hawks back in '86. I put all the blame on Stotts and he should be fired no later than January 15.

[pathway23]

I think I'm beginning to agree with Hotlanta. This might be one of the worst teams in NBA history, rivalling those infamous Mav teams of the 80s.

[Admin]

Now, I certainly agree that he deserves plenty of blame, but the blame should start with the players because they are showing no effort and no desire to do anything. I am beginning to wonder if we are tanking the season on purpose to get a high draft choice. JT playing the ole defense, Jax shooting every other time he touches the ball, Theo getting in foul trouble, Nazr not showing us crap, SAR not dominating the ball, etc.....that is whats killing us right now.......in addition to some poor coaching. Next year with a high lotto pick and a new coach and hopefully some FAs that come to play we will be better than this.

[jezmund]

We have a lot to learn from them. They surrounded their high pick with savy veterans (Boykins/Lenard/Barry) and added a PG who at least understands the team concept (Miller). Their coach (Bzedelik-sp?) gets the most out of his players and they really respond with inspired play. I would like to keep SAR, but if their is a top offensive talent in the draft at a frontcourt position, we might need to move him for an elite guard.

[Diesel]

When you look at Denver, Denver is not the culmination of one years work.... That Denver team took many hard moves, many risks, and many years of planning.

1st.... Trading McDyess for Camby/Nene.

2nd .... Trading NVE/Wahad for Howard.

3rd..... Losing Howard to FAcy.

4th..... Getting in position to draft Mello.

5th..... Whatever under the table deal Kiki had to offer Joey D to stop Detroit from taking Mello.

6th.... Paying Miller more than his market value in FAcy.

In essence, there were a lot of moves that involved GIMPS and Never will bes. I can't honestly sit here and say that the Nuggest would have not been better off if they had kept their same team. What Kiki did was get rid of debt and got lucky....

To think that that can be reproduced is not smart thinking. It's far too many factors. For the truth of the matter is not every draft pick Kiki made turn out for good. Tskittsvilli is still a flop.

However, Getting a good coach who has a system is one of those keys. The other is having the amount of scouting that Kiki had. Right now, I would say that the Hawks have one of the least powerful scouting depts. I think Hawksquawk could probably scout more effeciently than the Hawks. Maybe that's what we ought to do... Give up our day jobs and become a scouting company for the Hawks. I'm sure we could work each region of the country and world and do a much better job of scouting talent than what the Hawks are doing now.

[jezmund]

Yeah and they did it within a span of 2-3 years.

[nugzfan]

"In essence, there were a lot of moves that involved GIMPS and Never will bes. I can't honestly sit here and say that the Nuggest would have not been better off if they had kept their same team. What Kiki did was get rid of debt and got lucky...."

oh im sorry but you are 100% wrong. lucky? that dallas deal to dump nve and all those scrubs for cap space was anything but luck. NO ONE wanted nve...and he managed to get rid of him. the new york deal was also brilliant...we got camby AND nene for dice who quickly got hurt after the deal. camby has been more healthy than he has.

in the lotto we were UNLUCKY and fell from 1 to 3. i dont know what joe was thinking but he loves darko and we gladly took what was left over.

in FA he spent wisely and got the right guys...smart vets who want to be in denver and want to win.

we are far far better than we were before he took over and his moves and with MAX cap space coming up and a future. its not even close.

"To think that that can be reproduced is not smart thinking. It's far too many factors. For the truth of the matter is not every draft pick Kiki made turn out for good. Tskittsvilli is still a flop."

true - most GMs could not do what kiki did. he is a BRILLIANT gm. skita isnt a flop. still waaaaaaaaay too early.

you are making excuses and not giving credit where its due. too bad.

[Diesel]

It's always good to see Nugzfan come from nowhere... But today Nugzfan, let me show you the Luck.

It was LUCK that Detroit took Darko over Mello. Detroit didn't need another PF. They were not secure at SF. Prince is OK but he hasn't nailed down the Sf spot.

It was Luck that Golden State offered Derrick Zimmer their roster spot and contract and allowed Earl Boykins to leave?

It was Luck that Miller choose Denver over Utah.

It is Luck that Camby is still able to play. He is the gimpiest player in the History of basketball.

[nugzfan]

"It's always good to see Nugzfan come from nowhere... But today Nugzfan, let me show you the Luck."

i visit this board more than you think...

"It was LUCK that Detroit took Darko over Mello. Detroit didn't need another PF. They were not secure at SF. Prince is OK but he hasn't nailed down the Sf spot."

tell that to joe dumars.

"It was Luck that Golden State offered Derrick Zimmer their roster spot and contract and allowed Earl Boykins to leave?"

LMAO! luck? no.

"It was Luck that Miller choose Denver over Utah."

no that was just our appeal and the fact that he liked what we had to offer. no luck. dont be naive.

"It is Luck that Camby is still able to play. He is the gimpiest player in the History of basketball."

wow, so basicall you attribute EVERYTHING to luck. ignorance. your problem. not mine.

i shall from now on attribute every win the hawks get to luck. thats the same logic. you are pathetic. and wrong.

[TheDude]

kiki in my opinion has done an awesome job... luck can only come into play in one scenario in turning a franchise around and there have been several manuevers that you guys have done to bring you to where you are at...and the reason i don't think it's all luck is that kiki has been very aggressive in these moves..

by the way, can we have nene.. you guys don't need him..

[Diesel]

So tell me O great Nugz fan...

What exactly did Kiki do to make Detroit take Darko over Mello???

What exactly did Kiki do to make GS give a 2nd round pick Zimmerman a contract and Leave Earl Boykins in FAcy??

What exactly did Kiki do to allow Camby to stay healthy for the first season of his career???

The problem is that you think that your organization has planned all of this precisely... NO... There was a lot of LUCK involved.

Now when you're talking about the Hawks, you're talking about a team who's first lottery pick in 14 years is injured in a Car wreck and never plays another minute for them. You're talking about a team who trades for a C who is supposed to be injured for 2 months but turns out to be injured for 2 years. You're talking about a team who has 4 1st round draft picks and go from the equivalent of a 50 win team to a 19 win team.

When you're talking the Hawks, we don't have good luck...

We need a good plan.

[nugzfan]

"by the way, can we have nene.. you guys don't need him.."

sure!

[nugzfan]

"So tell me O great Nugz fan...

What exactly did Kiki do to make Detroit take Darko over Mello???"

ask joe. i dont know. he likes darko alot.

"What exactly did Kiki do to make GS give a 2nd round pick Zimmerman a contract and Leave Earl Boykins in FAcy??"

he offered boykins a good contract and security - GS did not. boykins earned it.

"What exactly did Kiki do to allow Camby to stay healthy for the first season of his career???"

camby is a little hurt now but camby worked hard in the offseason and we have GREAT trainers.

"The problem is that you think that your organization has planned all of this precisely... NO... There was a lot of LUCK involved."

please. us signing boykins and keeping camby healthy is NOT luck. you throw that term around too loosely. melo at 3rd was bad luck...we fell from 1st in the LEBRON draft. that sucked.

"Now when you're talking about the Hawks, you're talking about a team who's first lottery pick in 14 years is injured in a Car wreck and never plays another minute for them. You're talking about a team who trades for a C who is supposed to be injured for 2 months but turns out to be injured for 2 years. You're talking about a team who has 4 1st round draft picks and go from the equivalent of a 50 win team to a 19 win team."

oh i see. this isnt about denver. its about atlanta. you want pity.

thats not bad luck. you should have warned and prepared demarr better than that. poor management. you should have done better physicals on players you trade for. hawks fault there. just beacuse you lose and your players dont turn out well isnt bad luck nor is it GOOD luck if another team does well. you are pathetic. you are just crying and complaining. get real. i dont give a [censored]. your team messed up. your GM isnt as good as ours. your coach isnt as good as ours. your scouts arent as good as ours. period.

forget luck and stop blaming these outside forces on your teams mistakes or taking away credit from others. no one cares.

[Traceman]

Nearly EVERYONE had Darko rated as the 2nd best player in this draft and he still may turn out to be just that. It's not his fault that Larry Brown doesn't play rookies and that the Pistons have very good, veteran players ahead of him on the depth chart. At any rate, it wasn't luck that Melo was available at 3. It was basically a given that he would be available at 3. Who knows, if Darko had gone to Denver, he might be putting up numbers comparable to Melo's. Let's see what Darko is doing 3 years from now.

As for GS and Boykins, they simply couldn't afford him. They were not going to pay the luxury tax to keep him and that is basically what they would have had to do. Kiki simply outbid GS for Boykins' services. Other teams that had caproom (UT & LAC) or teams that needed PG help (ORL & BOS) could have went after Boykins but they didn't. Kiki simply made a good decision to sign Boykins. No luck there.

Camby healthy? He's not healthy. He got a DNP tonight.

All that being said, Kiki has done a fine job. Wish I could say the same for Babs. The jury is still out on Billy Knight.

[chillzatl]

That team has been trying to get better for 3 years now. Dumping high priced players for young talent and draft picks. Their GM made smart moves and got good talent. There was no luck involved there.

Miller went where he saw the best chance to win and he was smart to do so. Denver has a better chance to win than Utah. They don't have the coach. But they have more talent and a better balance of it than Utah does.

Detroit said from day one they would "probably" take Darko because he fit what they needed and was obviously more willing to take a bench role until they needed him. Whether he said it directly or they gathered it from his personality, it was true. Carmello would have cried like a baby if he'd gotten drafted by a team that didn't intend to play him. Detroit got the better player.

Having camby healthy for more than a month is luck for any team. But he's not healthy now. Camby was a throw-in on the McD trade, nothing more.

That team has made smart moves. Last year, way before the draft, many sports columnists talked about Denver having a bright future. THey only validated that claim in the off season with teh moves they made.

[Playmaker0017]

Smart sometimes equals lucky.

No move in basketball is 100% smart. This is because no one can see the future. There are closer gaurantees, but nothing is certain.

Trading a young JT for a young Jordan may sound smart, but if Jordan blows out his knee mid-year it looks like a bum move when you put on your 20/20 glasses.

The truth is, the Nuggets didn't make choices that had awful odds. THe didn't bet the farm and made wise decisions. These decisions turned out to have merit.

But, if any one variable changes, it doesn't look smart.

Smart can only be looked at with 20/20 glasses. In every draft a player slips past the top 10, and develops into a better player than 90% of the top ten picks. Was it smart to pass on this player? Was it smart to draft him? No one knows.

There is an element of luck to it all. There is an element of statistical odds. There is an element of making WISE decisions. (ie. Signing Henderson to 7mil / year was not WISE and turned out not to be SMART either)

Smart is a retrospective thing or a factual thing. I think the issue is a matter of semantics.

Play.

[Gray Mule]

You nailed that one. I agree with you.

It's said, "I'd rather be lucky than good."

Almost all trades and drafts are an educated guess.

Believing that this player will stay healthy, preform up

to his potential and fit in to the grand scheme of things

with the team are the reasons players are acquired.

Sometimes, things work out well. The G.M. looks good.

Sometimes the deal goes sour. The player doesn't work

out. The G.M. looks bad.

Since most deals are of the educated guess variety, we

must ask, where does this education come from? Diesel

gave us the answer in one of his posts here. The

scouting department. They are the ones who are out

there, checking on all these players, whether they are

young players entering the draft or N.B.A. players that

you want to trade for.

I believe much of the failure of the Hawks over the years

is a direct result of our weak scouting department.

Much is made of the salary cap, the luxury tax and who

will make the best coach. Strangely, Hawks can spend

all they wish to without any one saying anything or

doing anything to them on this department. They are

being penny wise and pound foolish to leave this, their

weakest link unattended.

If I owned the Hawks, my first move would be to try

to move the scouting department from one of the worst

in the N.B.A. to one of the best. Then, when it was

time for the G.M. to make that educated guess, he would

have the information necessary to make that decision

with wisdom.

A few extra million spent on the scouting department

will pay dividends --- Hawks need all the help that they

can get. This should be a priority.

[Packfill]

Didn't Kiki say he would have taken Darko if he was available? I am almost positive he was as hot for Darko as everyone else. Kiki, Jerry West, Billy Knight, Scott Layden, you name it, would have taken Darko number 2. If the Nuggets were lucky it is only in that they were lucky to have a high pick in a deep draft (although that is not really luck because Denver and Cleveland pretty much tanked their seasons in the hope of a high pick in '03).

Sometimes, it is more about being in the right place at the right time then anything else.