Rebounding issues

[aali34]

I have been very impressed with the teams rebounding as of late and decided to do some poking around courtesy of nba.com/stats

Before the all star break the hawks were the 3rd worst rebounding team in the NBA at - 41.2 overall. The OREB was last at - 8.5, and DREB was 20th ( or the 11th worst)

After the all star break, the hawks have moved up to 6th worst in the nba. However in games played only after the allstar break the hawks are top 15 in rebounding, and second in DREB. They remain dead last in OREB, but that is so they can prevent points scored in transition.

FYI, they tie the cavaliers in rebounds per game, and out rebound them on the defensive boards, but not the offensive ones.

 

 

 

[Peoriabird]

2 hours ago, aali34 said:

2 hours ago, aali34 said:

FYI, they tie the cavaliers in rebounds per game, and out rebound them on the defensive boards, but not the offensive one

 

Which means that they "can" rebound when committed to doing it!

 

[High5]

19 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

Which means that they "can" rebound when committed to doing it!

 

It probably has more to do with our defense being insane than Bud erasing "ABSOLUTELY NO REBOUNDS" from the whiteboard. 

[Peoriabird]

40 minutes ago, High5 said:

It probably has more to do with our defense being insane than Bud erasing "ABSOLUTELY NO REBOUNDS" from the whiteboard. 

One has nothing to do with the other.

[Lurker]

8 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

One has nothing to do with the other.

Yes it does. When defenders are failing to defend the dribble drive, which this team sucks at often and is why they're having trouble with a couple of teams, one they face tonight, the big guys have to help out of the paint and we often end up with guys that are 6'6" or smaller trying to box out someone at least 2-3 inches taller than them.

That won't be fixed until certain players are replaced or at least have their role diminished on the team, like let Bazemore walk, finally remove Korver from the starting lineup, and get a guy that is at least 6'8" that can play at least 25 mpg at the 3. And no that guy is not Mike Scott unless he's volcano-hot.

[Peoriabird]

9 minutes ago, Lurker said:

Yes it does. When defenders are failing to defend the dribble drive, which this team sucks at often and is why they're having trouble with a couple of teams, one they face tonight, the big guys have to help out of the paint and we often end up with guys that are 6'6" or smaller trying to box out someone at least 2-3 inches taller than them.

 And no that guy is not Mike Scott unless he's volcano-hot.

Mike Scott would be perfect for the job...He is a pretty good rebounder you know.  That is if you put rebounding at the top of your list.  But since we value shooting over rebounding I guess korver is a better choice...Oh Wait!

[Lurker]

3 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

Mike Scott would be perfect for the job...He is a pretty good rebounder you know.  That is if you put rebounding at the top of your list.  But since we value shooting over rebounding I guess korver is a better choice...Oh Wait!

Mike Scott absolutely CAN NOT play more than 15-18 mins a game unless he's VOLCANO hot. I mean it. It'd lead to poor results.

[High5]

28 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

One has nothing to do with the other.

Right, missed shots and defensive rebounds couldn't possibly be related. 

[Peoriabird]

4 hours ago, High5 said:

Right, missed shots and defensive rebounds couldn't possibly be related. 

Atlanta's defensive strength is forced turn overs not one and done defensive possessions!

[Guest]

Know what I just heard from The Stinger - defense doesn't end until the rebound is secured.  That is so true,  we can play great defense for the entire shot clock but if the other team gets the offensive rebound that's a fail.

[High5]

1 hour ago, Peoriabird said:

 Atlanta's defensive strength is forced turn overs not one and done defensive possessions!

What are you even talking about? The Hawks have forced 5 more misses per game since the break and the defensive rebounds per game have gone up as a result. It's pretty straightforward.

Edited April 8, 2016 by High5

[Peoriabird]

1 hour ago, High5 said:

What are you even talking about? The Hawks have forced 5 more misses per game since the break and the defensive rebounds per game have gone up as a result. It's pretty straightforward.

Teams were also getting 10+ offensive rebounds per game before the all star break

[High5]

4 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

Teams were also getting 10+ offensive rebounds per game before the all star break

And they're getting more now. 11.3 before and 12.3 after. 

[Hawkmoor]

19 hours ago, aali34 said:

I have been very impressed with the teams rebounding as of late and decided to do some poking around courtesy of nba.com/stats

Before the all star break the hawks were the 3rd worst rebounding team in the NBA at - 41.2 overall. The OREB was last at - 8.5, and DREB was 20th ( or the 11th worst)

After the all star break, the hawks have moved up to 6th worst in the nba. However in games played only after the allstar break the hawks are top 15 in rebounding, and second in DREB. They remain dead last in OREB, but that is so they can prevent points scored in transition.

FYI, they tie the cavaliers in rebounds per game, and out rebound them on the defensive boards, but not the offensive ones.

 

 

 

And im gonna add something to this, which is major for me to do: Its BUD, not Al.  Al CAN play in the paint and go to the basket on offense. Its Bud's stubborness with keeping Al out on the perimeter. In today's smallish NBA front courts,  Al AND Sap CAN hold it down, IF PLAYED TOGETHER IN THE PAINT.

The problem is Bud's insistence on playing Al on the perimeter,  instead of doing like San Antonio does with Duncan. They keep Duncan parked just outside the lane area and move him around that area, while Al is out in 3 point line. Ive seen enough of Al moments to see he CAN dominate in today's NBA with his size, the Hawks are just stubborn with their offensive scheme.

Edited April 8, 2016 by Hawkmoor

[Atlantaholic]

16 hours ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Know what I just heard from The Stinger - defense doesn't end until the rebound is secured.  That is so true,  we can play great defense for the entire shot clock but if the other team gets the offensive rebound that's a fail.

Unless we force another miss and then get the rebound. We are holding teams at 41% shooting since the All Star break, so not too many of those offensive boards we give up  end up actually being points. If you are first in points given up, fg% allowed, and top five in steals and blocks, it doesn't matter how poor you are rebounding, because the stats show that you are making up for it.  Of course rebounding would make our defense even deadlier, but if the net result is already that we are the best team in the league on that end of the floor, it's a bit silly to me that people keep harking on it being our weakness. If our offense was at the level of the D we would be running away with the Eastern Conference, rebounding woes and all.

Edited April 8, 2016 by Atlantaholic

[AHF]

2 hours ago, Atlantaholic said:

Unless we force another miss and then get the rebound. We are holding teams at 41% shooting since the All Star break, so not too many of those offensive boards we give up  end up actually being points. If you are first in points given up, fg% allowed, and top five in steals and blocks, it doesn't matter how poor you are rebounding, because the stats show that you are making up for it.  Of course rebounding would make our defense even deadlier, but if the net result is already that we are the best team in the league on that end of the floor, it's a bit silly to me that people keep harking on it being our weakness. If our offense was at the level of the D we would be running away with the Eastern Conference, rebounding woes and all.

Using overall fg% is not a good proxy for fg% on shots following offensive rebounds.  Lots of offensive rebounds are captured close to the basket with the defense out of shape.  The % on those shots is much higher than a normal shot staring on the perimeter with the defense organized and set.

The Cleveland series last year showed the rebounding can matter.  We do a good job overcoming it in the regular season, but I'll be happy if we are the best defense in the league in the post-season giving up only 41% on shots following offensive rebounds.

With Humphries, I also feel like we have more answers to this problem than we did earlier in the year.

[Atlantaholic]

2 hours ago, AHF said:

Using overall fg% is not a good proxy for fg% on shots following offensive rebounds.  Lots of offensive rebounds are captured close to the basket with the defense out of shape.  The % on those shots is much higher than a normal shot staring on the perimeter with the defense organized and set.

The Cleveland series last year showed the rebounding can matter.  We do a good job overcoming it in the regular season, but I'll be happy if we are the best defense in the league in the post-season giving up only 41% on shots following offensive rebounds.

With Humphries, I also feel like we have more answers to this problem than we did earlier in the year.

The point was, it doesn't matter how many rebounds you give up if you rank first in points given up. There's  a difference of less than three between the team that ranks last in offensive rebounds given up and the team that ranks first. If you are forcing 16 TOs and holding a team to 41% shooting you should offset those three extra possessions, which is exactly what we've been doing.  As long as we play this type of defense, rebounding should be overcome completely. 

Lets consider:

Of the ten  teams  allowing the least offensive rebounds only four rank in the top 10 in defensive points given up per 100 possessions.  Only one  ranks in the top five  (San Antonio). three  rank in the teens and two rank in the bottom ten in overall  defense.

Conversley, the ten  teams allowing the most offensive rebounds, you've also got four that rank in the top 10 in defensive points given up, and you've got three of the top five teams (Boston, Atlanta, and GS), while 2 rank in the teens and 4 rank in the bottom ten. At best the correlation between offensive rebounds given up and competent defense is marginal.

Miami won a championship a few years ago with Lebron and they were dead last in rebounds, and they gave up 11.2 offensive boards a game. 

The Cleveland series was domination on every front. We didn't force turnovers, we didn't hit shots, we weren't able to defend the three point line or keep them from scoring inside, and we got destroyed on the boards. We will need to improve every facet of our play to stand a chance, and I'm not buying that rebounding is the "key" over any of the other aforementioned factors. 

 

[AHF]

If we perform in the playoffs like our D has performed lately, I am all on board.  I just don't think we are as good as our numbers have looked.  Re bounding is not the key above all else - it is just one of many variables and one of the few where we have some obvious potential weakness.

[Trout7]

There is nothing more demorializing as a fan  watching a game than your team getting dominated on offensive rebounds.  It makes all of your effort a total waste.  There are so many teams that are nowhere near as good as the Hawks, that stay in the game with us only because we can't stop offensive rebounds.

[Guest]

13 hours ago, Hawkmoor said:

And im gonna add something to this, which is major for me to do: Its BUD, not Al.  Al CAN play in the paint and go to the basket on offense. Its Bud's stubborness with keeping Al out on the perimeter. In today's smallish NBA front courts,  Al AND Sap CAN hold it down, IF PLAYED TOGETHER IN THE PAINT.

The problem is Bud's insistence on playing Al on the perimeter,  instead of doing like San Antonio does with Duncan. They keep Duncan parked just outside the lane area and move him around that area, while Al is out in 3 point line. Ive seen enough of Al moments to see he CAN dominate in today's NBA with his size, the Hawks are just stubborn with their offensive scheme.

1. Al is limited in the post so Bud can't park him just outside the lane like Duncan - that's not a comparison worth mentioning.

2. Al's best shot is his midrange from PnR action.

3. If you think Bud is telling Al to not be aggressive in going to the rim particularly because he has the quickness to do so, then......(shrug)

4. If you think Bud is telling Al to jibber jab step instead of catching the ball and going quickly, then.....

5. Just because Al is at the 3pt line doesn't mean he HAS to shoot it - since AS break he has been showing and going strong to the paint - that's on Al. How many times a game does Nique say he could have gone to the paint. Or how many times Al is in the paint and elects to pass out without even looking at the basket. Al is offensively challenge,  he just doesn't have that natural instinct with the ball on offense.