Would Deroazan, Durant, Milsap/Horford be a contending trio?

[thescout5]

I'd rather have Beal over Derozan although Beal gets injured more. I know its fantasy land but if you added Durant and Beal that would give us two sharp shooters from the outside. Derozan this playoffs has not played well. 

[macdaddy]

One problem we have is that the leaders of this team like Horford and Sap think that the team can just keep improving as is.    They don't seem to want a star player in here.   So their highly unlikely to be out there looking to create a big 3.  

[AHF]

13 hours ago, Watchman said:

Derozan collapses in the playoffs every time.

Career Playoffs:  13.3 PER, 0.019 WS/48, .459% TS%

How does that translate?  

Here are a couple of guys who gave similar regular season performances:

2015-16 Shane Larkin 13.2 PER, 0.039 SW/48, .516% TS%

2014-15 Tim Hardaway Jr. 12.1 PER, 0.023 WS/48, .512% TS%

2013-14 Evan Turner 12.4 PER, 0.027 WS/48, .498% TS%

[Wretch]

21 hours ago, macdaddy said:

One problem we have is that the leaders of this team like Horford and Sap think that the team can just keep improving as is.    They don't seem to want a star player in here.   So their highly unlikely to be out there looking to create a big 3.  

I think they want a star, just like everyone else.  Problem is, we can't seem to get out of our own way to do it.  We've had ample opportunity to build a contender, but we stubbornly refuse to take any sort of risk or venture outside "the plan" and continuity/competitiveness.  As I said a couple of seasons ago, and people disagreed, but staying competitive seems to take precedence over EVERYTHING.

Going back to Pete Babcock...this guy did the same thing we are doing now.  He kept competitive teams and tried to avoid rebuilding at all costs.  He kept a solid rotation on the floor, gave away lottery picks, and the results were a continually mediocre team.  Following Babcock, we finally get a GM who understands the need to rebuild - only, he's an idiot that doesn't think positions matter.  Then we get an ownership group that won't spend money and refuses to change the core of the team.  

Then we get a puppet GM who basically continues the "keep it competitive" mindset - and we continue to roll out these competitive, "cap friendly", playoff-fodder squads.  Finally we bring in a new GM...and I'm hoping to see some change.  Not a chance...  We stick with the "competitive" formula and call it "changing the culture."  Only, we don't really change anything.  We basically follow the Babcock blueprint and opt for tweaking/retooling. 

We drop Ferry, but we promote his spirit animal to GM status...and guess what?  No new friends:

Quote

 

"Blowing it up is probably not the way to beat a team like Cleveland, or whoever it may be that is very good," he said. "We value continuity. We value what this group has done and the success that they've had. A lot of times continuity is your best hope for taking that next step. Can you have a balance of continuity and some additions and bolster it and walk that fine line of adding and embracing continuity?"

According to him, the Hawks' players have embraced the philosophy of self-development.

"A lot of the thought behind continuity is that you get better from within -- even Paul Millsap. At some point I'm going to go to lunch with Paul in the next week or two, and I'm going to talk about areas where he can improve and get better. He's embraced that. He has come back each year better as one of our core players."

-Bud, 5/10/2016 [http://www.nba.com/hawks/features/budenholzer-hawks-will-look-be-better-build-foundation]

Translation: We like our core.

Coming from San Antonio, Budenholzer has no idea what "rebuilding" looks like and is obviously 100% disinterested in it.  Admittedly, while I'm not holding my breath for 60 wins, I think if we stay the course and the right pieces fall into place...we have a chance to get back to the ECFs depending on the match up.  That's if the East holds to its current form.  If not, and another dominant team emerges, we'll have little to no chance and we're looking at the 90's all over again.

[thescout5]

1 hour ago, Wretch said:

I think they want a star, just like everyone else.  Problem is, we can't seem to get out of our own way to do it.  We've had ample opportunity to build a contender, but we stubbornly refuse to take any sort of risk or venture outside "the plan" and continuity/competitiveness.  As I said a couple of seasons ago, and people disagreed, but staying competitive seems to take precedence over EVERYTHING.

Going back to Pete Babcock...this guy did the same thing we are doing now.  He kept competitive teams and tried to avoid rebuilding at all costs.  He kept a solid rotation on the floor, gave away lottery picks, and the results were a continually mediocre team.  Following Babcock, we finally get a GM who understands the need to rebuild - only, he's an idiot that doesn't think positions matter.  Then we get an ownership group that won't spend money and refuses to change the core of the team.  

Then we get a puppet GM who basically continues the "keep it competitive" mindset - and we continue to roll out these competitive, "cap friendly", playoff-fodder squads.  Finally we bring in a new GM...and I'm hoping to see some change.  Not a chance...  We stick with the "competitive" formula and call it "changing the culture."  Only, we don't really change anything.  We basically follow the Babcock blueprint and opt for tweaking/retooling. 

We drop Ferry, but we promote his spirit animal to GM status...and guess what?  No new friends:

Translation: We like our core.

Coming from San Antonio, Budenholzer has no idea what "rebuilding" looks like and is obviously 100% disinterested in it.  Admittedly, while I'm not holding my breath for 60 wins, I think if we stay the course and the right pieces fall into place...we have a chance to get back to the ECFs depending on the match up.  That's if the East holds to its current form.  If not, and another dominant team emerges, we'll have little to no chance and we're looking at the 90's all over again.

Great post.I agree. Gets back to my point where management just wants to make the playoffs and not win a championship.

[HawkItus]

1 hour ago, Wretch said:

I think they want a star, just like everyone else.  Problem is, we can't seem to get out of our own way to do it.  We've had ample opportunity to build a contender, but we stubbornly refuse to take any sort of risk or venture outside "the plan" and continuity/competitiveness.  As I said a couple of seasons ago, and people disagreed, but staying competitive seems to take precedence over EVERYTHING.

Going back to Pete Babcock...this guy did the same thing we are doing now.  He kept competitive teams and tried to avoid rebuilding at all costs.  He kept a solid rotation on the floor, gave away lottery picks, and the results were a continually mediocre team.  Following Babcock, we finally get a GM who understands the need to rebuild - only, he's an idiot that doesn't think positions matter.  Then we get an ownership group that won't spend money and refuses to change the core of the team.  

Then we get a puppet GM who basically continues the "keep it competitive" mindset - and we continue to roll out these competitive, "cap friendly", playoff-fodder squads.  Finally we bring in a new GM...and I'm hoping to see some change.  Not a chance...  We stick with the "competitive" formula and call it "changing the culture."  Only, we don't really change anything.  We basically follow the Babcock blueprint and opt for tweaking/retooling. 

We drop Ferry, but we promote his spirit animal to GM status...and guess what?  No new friends:

Translation: We like our core.

Coming from San Antonio, Budenholzer has no idea what "rebuilding" looks like and is obviously 100% disinterested in it.  Admittedly, while I'm not holding my breath for 60 wins, I think if we stay the course and the right pieces fall into place...we have a chance to get back to the ECFs depending on the match up.  That's if the East holds to its current form.  If not, and another dominant team emerges, we'll have little to no chance and we're looking at the 90's all over again.

But, guys do get better.  Lebron wasn't Lebron from day 1.   Kobe wasn't Kobe from day one.   You have a guy like Teague who has gotten better, but just hasn't pushed his game as far as he could.   Dennis has a chance.   Horford has gotten better and even reinvented himself.  Paul got better.  I think Bud has scene your average guy work into spectacular so he knows it can happen.  Kawhi, Parker, Manu.....those guys worked into being special.   They weren't special when they got to San Antonio.     

[TheNorthCydeRises]

On 5/10/2016 at 10:18 AM, HawkItus said:

For all those gripes about Derozan, remember they said the same about Crawford before he got here, Smith before Cleveland, etc.   Players can change with better coaching and support.   You guys act like everything is constant.

Even Melo.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Wretch said:

 

Coming from San Antonio, Budenholzer has no idea what "rebuilding" looks like and is obviously 100% disinterested in it.  

I'm sure Bud can look at Sacramento (10 years no playoffs) and  Minny (for all the high lottery picks they've had, this is year 12 not sniffing the playoffs)   to see what rebuilding looks like - it ain't pretty.

I'm not saying we don't need moves - we do.  we can't bring back the same team and expect to be better.  But trading ALL our vets for young players and picks as some have suggested is Fools Gold.

[Wretch]

48 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

I'm sure Bud can look at Sacramento (10 years no playoffs) and  Minny (for all the high lottery picks they've had, this is year 12 not sniffing the playoffs)   to see what rebuilding looks like - it ain't pretty.

I'm not saying we don't need moves - we do.  we can't bring back the same team and expect to be better.  But trading ALL our vets for young players and picks as some have suggested is Fools Gold.

Not every rebuilding effort is Sacramento or Philly.  Just as not every plan for consistency is San Antonio (I have opinions about how we classify San Antonio and the quality of competition out West).  I get it though.  You guys are ok with the results we get every season - because we see the same results and we sing the same song every year. 

I really have no dog in this fight anymore.  I've seen enough of what this methodology brings.  Until things change, I'm just going to pop in here every post season and play the same record I've been playing too...

The Hawks seem to respond inversely to my disposition though.  So if I continue, then perhaps next year we'll win the East again.  :)  lol

[Wretch]

I do have one question though...at what point do you guys say, "Alright, enough..."

?

[macdaddy]

1 minute ago, Wretch said:

I do have one question though...at what point do you guys say, "Alright, enough..."

?

Everyone did say enough in the early 2000s and did your fool proof blow it up.   And sure enough in about 5 years we worked our way back to a middle of the pack playoff team.   That was exciting wasn't?

[gonzo]

first of all sorry for having been absent, but i had an accident so i was in the hospital. B------U------T i am drunk again and i can tell you all this team is not a f***ing middle of the pack playoff team. This team is problably the 2nd best team in the conference. And that for a 2nd year i a row. FFs thats something its like just 1 piece is missing from a finals appearence! I believe in bud and he will do the adjustments and the hawks will be back greater than ever!

[Wretch]

Please don't put words in my mouth.  I'm not saying it's fool proof.  I'm saying what we're doing isn't getting us anywhere - and there's a lot of data to support that.  The question is simply, at what point do you decide that we need to rebuild?  Or does this never happen?

As far as early 2000's...how do we just ignore the fact that we had an idiot of a GM piloting the ship directed by a regime that refused to make any changes?  We didn't work towards anything...  We drafted poorly and we've kept the same philosophy since we made the playoffs in 2008.

[Wretch]

4 minutes ago, gonzo said:

first of all sorry for having been absent, but i had an accident so i was in the hospital. B------U------T i am drunk again and i can tell you all this team is not a f***ing middle of the pack playoff team. This team is problably the 2nd best team in the conference. And that for a 2nd year i a row. FFs thats something its like just 1 piece is missing from a finals appearence! I believe in bud and he will do the adjustments and the hawks will be back greater than ever!

 

Well...how do you define middle of the pack playoff team?

1z -Cleveland Cavaliers	57	25	.695	-	33-8	24-17	8-8	35-17	104.3	98.3	+6.0	L1	6-4
2y -Toronto Raptors	56	26	.683	1	32-9	24-17	14-2	39-13	102.7	98.2	+4.5	W4	7-3
3y -Miami Heat	48	34	.585	9	28-13	20-21	10-6	31-21	100.0	98.4	+1.6	L1	6-4
4x -Atlanta Hawks	48	34	.585	9	27-14	21-20	8-8	29-23	102.8	99.2	+3.6	L2	6-4
5x -Boston Celtics	48	34	.585	9	28-13	20-21	10-6	31-21	105.7	102.5	+3.2	W1	6-4
6x -Charlotte Hornets	48	34	.585	9	30-11	18-23	8-8	33-19	103.4	100.7	+2.7	W2	7-3
7x -Indiana Pacers	45	37	.549	12	26-15	19-22	8-8	30-22	102.2	100.5	+1.7	W3	7-3
8x - Detroit Pistons	44	38	.537	13	26-15	18-23	10-6	29-23	102.0	101.4	+0.6	W1	6-4

[Wretch]

Nevermind...lol

I'm going back to sleep.  

Go Hawks. :)

[HawkItus]

Can I just say this- if we follow your plan we are essentially giving up for at least 3 years right?   So if we continue with the current program we are also giving up for 3 years in your mind right?   So unless you see a path to a Lebron/Curry in that 3 year plan we are giving up either way.   

[Wretch]

It's always "unless we draft Lebron/Curry"...it's crazy because I had that typed up before you said and almost posted it.  It's always "unless we get [x-supermegastar]" or "there's only a handful of [insert superstar]"  It's always the same rationale...and you guys will go to great lengths to validate staying in this cycle.  Everything other than staying the course is bad.  I get it.

I really do...after all these years I get it.  No amount of showing how teams draft well, make trades, draw attention...will change your view.  No amount of showing how we went wrong, no amount of 1st or 2nd round exits will do it.  No amount of sweeps or historic beat downs will do it.

"This is going to work! Just watch!  We'll tweak it and next year we'll [etc.]"

"There's no guarantee if we rebuild" excuse me..."You just wanna tank and that's a horrible way to try to build a team."

No amount of showing you guys where the real talent is coming from will do it.

I get it.

Wake me when we're relevant.  

CMD...

c:\> runas /profile /user:Administrator “C:\programs\Shutdown_Wretched_Idiot.exe”
Enter the password for Administrator: nimbers
Attempting to shut Wretch's mouth ...
Success!!! User will now STFU and go to sleep

 

 

[gonzo]

vor 27 Minuten, Wretch sagte:

 

Well...how do you define middle of the pack playoff team?

1z -Cleveland Cavaliers	57	25	.695	-	33-8	24-17	8-8	35-17	104.3	98.3	+6.0	L1	6-4
2y -Toronto Raptors	56	26	.683	1	32-9	24-17	14-2	39-13	102.7	98.2	+4.5	W4	7-3
3y -Miami Heat	48	34	.585	9	28-13	20-21	10-6	31-21	100.0	98.4	+1.6	L1	6-4
4x -Atlanta Hawks	48	34	.585	9	27-14	21-20	8-8	29-23	102.8	99.2	+3.6	L2	6-4
5x -Boston Celtics	48	34	.585	9	28-13	20-21	10-6	31-21	105.7	102.5	+3.2	W1	6-4
6x -Charlotte Hornets	48	34	.585	9	30-11	18-23	8-8	33-19	103.4	100.7	+2.7	W2	7-3
7x -Indiana Pacers	45	37	.549	12	26-15	19-22	8-8	30-22	102.2	100.5	+1.7	W3	7-3
8x - Detroit Pistons	44	38	.537	13	26-15	18-23	10-6	29-23	102.0	101.4	+0.6	W1	6-4

 

hey m8 as i said i am a little tipsy, well who really cares about the regular season. yeah the east is very close, but the hawks are better than the raps and the heat in my biased opinion:D

[HawkItus]

11 minutes ago, Wretch said:

It's always "unless we draft Lebron/Curry"...it's crazy because I had that typed up before you said and almost posted it.  It's always "unless we get [x-supermegastar]" or "there's only a handful of [insert superstar]"  It's always the same rationale...and you guys will go to great lengths to validate staying in this cycle.  Everything other than staying the course is bad.  I get it.

I really do...after all these years I get it.  No amount of showing how teams draft well, make trades, draw attention...will change your view.  No amount of showing how we went wrong, no amount of 1st or 2nd round exits will do it.  No amount of sweeps or historic beat downs will do it.

"This is going to work! Just watch!  We'll tweak it and next year we'll [etc.]"

"There's no guarantee if we rebuild" excuse me..."You just wanna tank and that's a horrible way to try to build a team."

No amount of showing you guys where the real talent is coming from will do it.

I get it.

Wake me when we're relevant.  

CMD...

c:\> runas /profile /user:Administrator “C:\programs\Shutdown_Wretched_Idiot.exe”
Enter the password for Administrator: nimbers
Attempting to shut Wretch's mouth ...
Success!!! User will now STFU and go to sleep

 

 

Last response on this.  I backtrack on the Lebron/Curry.   It  isn't even that.  Forget drafting.  It is really spending.  As long as we have lower half payroll we will not be relevant.  Instead of letting guys go we should be adding salary.  Title teams are paying the luxury tax and not just for 1 player.

[thescout5]

Seems like its always the case where Hawks don't have enough money to add a few high quality players. Where does the money go? Even with Sap and resigning Horford even if it is a max or little below why can't we add talent. We need to go over the cap.Cleveland always finds a way. There was something like 37 million dollars between Hawks payroll and the Cavs. Another way to look at it almost 2 max players. This is a league where you need to draft well and sign key free agents plus keep the core of the team if its working. The Hawks are lackluster when it comes to the draft. I know they draft middle of the pack or lower. I haven't looked but some how the good teams find the talent they don't have to draft high.

There are certain times when a team must revamp and go in a different direction. I think this is one of those times for the Hawks. I really do think Teague or Schröder needs to be dealt. It's hard having two quality point guards more of a luxury than necessity. Whoever goes means the Hawks need to look for a quality backup. Maybe its through the draft or free agency but it can be done. Also the Hawks should be looking into what they can get for Sap. He'll want more money after next year thus a decision needs to be made. Can the Hawks win a championship with Sap or even get back to the ECF? It doesn't look that way now.

I did not like the way the Hawks used last yrs 1st round pick. I know Bud probably thought he could fix Hardaway but it looks like he'll be a Jag. Basically the Hawks threw away a first round pick. Bad decision making if you ask me and in order to compete vs the top tier teams you must excel at every facet of building a team. Does Hawk management want to do that?