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The Tank Thread

Diesel

By Diesel
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KB21 Grand Master

KB21

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2 hours ago, davis171 said:

See you saw a winning culture I saw a mediocre culture who never took risks who when the stars aligned we got swept by a team who was without 2 all stars. And don't bring up Korver and Carroll were out we weren't beating them or Golden State for that matter. Derrick Favors is a guy I like and a hometown guy, however he has said on multiple occasions he doesn't want to play center so unless you want to play him and collins at center together I don't really see the fit.

Well, now you have the losing culture you have so desired, and it will be here for years.  

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AHF
AHF

This is what the rebuild was all about.  Tanking doesn’t guarantee success or failure.  Like any strategy, it takes luck and execution.  But this is what it was all about. By tanking we picked up

JayBirdHawk
JayBirdHawk
DBac
DBac

Aaaaaaaaand the goalposts have moved.

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CBAreject Newbie

CBAreject

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7 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

They were a middling team.

The Hawks had assets too when they were a "middling team".  Let's not act like Jerry Stackhouse's star was brighter than Joe Johnson's or even Josh Smith's.  Stackhouse, when he averaged 29 ppg, took a whopping 24 shots a game to get those points and shot 40%.  Detroit missed the playoffs that year, only winning 32 games.  Stack was an inefficient, volume shooting scorer who Detroit knew they had to upgrade, in order to make them better team. 

Michael Jordan, in his "infinite wisdom", viewed Stack as a talent the Wizards could cultivate, and was willing to part ways with the very good, but non superstar Rip Hamilton.  Rip would go on to be that very good SG for years, while Stack wouldn't even last 2 years in Washington.

The Pistons managed to survive the loss of Grant Hill by trading him for defensive assets, and trading their inefficient volume shooting SG for a much more steady scorer.  Then they added the right pieces from a chemistry standpoint, including the right coach, to elevate them to championship level.

 

Contrast that with the Hawks.

During our lean years from 2004 - 2008, this is what we acquired

 

6th pick -  Josh Childress

17th pick - Josh Smith

Trade for Joe Johnson ( who was a 10th pick in 2001 )

2nd pick - Marvin Williams

5th pick - Shelden Williams

3rd pick - Al Horford

 

When it came time to make significant moves to possibly shake up the chemistry of the team, what did we do?

 

Childress - went to Greece

Smith -re-signed after rookie contract . . . then let walk

Johnson - re-signed to MAX deal . . then traded for expiring contracts + Kyle Korver

Marvin - re-signed after rookie contract . . . then traded for Devin Harris ( expiring contract )

Shelden - traded for Mike Bibby

Horford - re-signed after rookie contract . . . then he left to sign with Boston

 

So out of the 6 major draft pick assets the Hawks have had during the "tank years", the Hawks re-upped with 4 of them, because "they loved their core". 

 

Oh, I am in no way saying Jerry f’ing Stackhouse was a good player.  He is one of my least favorite players of all time—inefficient volume scorer...maddening to watch.  He was an asset, in that he had perceived value to other teams, and he had been acquired with a lottery pick.  

The question put to KB was whether there was an asset-poor mediocre team without a star like ours in 2017 that made some sort of moves to become a contender without becoming bad first.  Detroit is raised as an example, but Detroit had actual star players (Hill, Stackhouse) that they acquired from being bad that they then parlayed into other assets.  

Nobody was giving us a package like Detroit got for Hill or Stackhouse for Dwight Howard, a player seen to be not worth his contract, declining, and a clubhouse problem.  The one asset we had was Schröder, but he is also seen as a flawed player.  You might be able to turn him into a mid-lottery Pick like Philly got for Jrue Holliday.  

As for the rest of your post, I totally agree that the Hawks mismanaged their rebuild a decade ago, blew obvious draft decisions, attempted to become competitive too quickly with the JJ trade, and that led to a decade of mediocrity.  That was compounded by the horrible decision to destroy Danny Ferry, and then subsequent BudCox decisions.  But none of that has bearing on the fact that as our roster stood in 2017, we had no legitimate pathway to contention.  Blow up was the only option to acquire star talent with such a dearth if capital

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Watchman Mentor

Watchman

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7 hours ago, Brotha2ThaNite said:

It's time for someone... JC and Dennis to fake an injury. :ahf:

 

We have 5 teams with 18 wins. I know it might be bad to have a team to take Ls but my whole life about the NBA will change if we could get that #1.  These Phoenix Suns are starting to get on my nerves :dry:

From the looks of our recent play, I don't think we have anything to worry about.  The bigger thing to worry about is Collins getting injured playing meaningless games.  That would be my concern.

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KB21 Grand Master

KB21

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6 minutes ago, Watchman said:

Hopefully the NBA will begin punishing teams who tank in the future.  Think "Shoeless Joe" on a team scale, and that is my take on tanking.

It should start by taking away draft picks.  The Hawks should have to forfeit their draft pick for what Travis has done.  

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AHF Grand Master

AHF

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21 minutes ago, Watchman said:

As long as the other tankers have to do the same.  

Yeah - you need to completely redo the system before punishing everyone.  There is nothing unique about this season other than the sheer number of teams doing it.  Other teams have retooled for the future or whatever they wanted to call it just like the Hawks and others are doing here.  In fact, it is clear none of this year tankers will end up near the historic low win totals of some other franchises.

I will be interested to see how the new system works starting next year.  With most drafts not as nearly as many attractive prospects and with the reduced odds at the top, we probably will not see this level of tanking again anytime soon.  Until they completely revamp the system, however, it won't be eliminated.

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CBAreject Newbie

CBAreject

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1 minute ago, AHF said:

Yeah - you need to completely redo the system before punishing everyone.

Agreed.  It is commonly seen as a perversion of justice to make ex post facto rulings like punishing tankers when there is no explicit rule against it.  I don’t mean players throwing games, I mean management stripping down a roster to be uncompetitive or coaches playing younger players ahead of veterans.  It’s alarming to me that people want just such an ex post facto rules enforced against their favorite team because of their own nihilistic rage over having a losing season.  

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AHF Grand Master

AHF

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2 minutes ago, CBAreject said:

Just make the whole draft a pure lottery, each team has one ping-pong ball, unless they’ve traded it ahead of time.  Nobody will tank.  Any future draft choice becomes more valuable in trades.   Also have a hard cap like the NFL and stop capping individual player salaries.  

That would eliminate tanking but would also put teams (particularly in bad markets) in terrible situations for extended periods of time and make other teams juggernauts.  Pure luck would determine a lot of the success of the entire league.

Imagine the 2002-03 Spurs winning a ring and then adding LeBron James to their roster.  Or watching the Bulls win their 5th ring and run back Jordan, Rodman and Pippen but this time with Tim Duncan in the post.  It could easily be worse than the stacking in GS right now.

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CBAreject Newbie

CBAreject

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Just now, AHF said:

That would eliminate tanking but would also put teams (particularly in bad markets) in terrible situations for extended periods of time and make other teams juggernauts.  Pure luck would determine a lot of the success of the entire league.

Oh I’m not really in favor of it for exactly those reasons.  But for fans who hate tanking so much, they need to look at those kinds of options rather than trying to selectively punish teams for ill-defined and subjective cases of tanking.  

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AHF Grand Master

AHF

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17 minutes ago, CBAreject said:

Oh I’m not really in favor of it for exactly those reasons.  But for fans who hate tanking so much, they need to look at those kinds of options rather than trying to selectively punish teams for ill-defined and subjective cases of tanking.  

As much as it would make me want to puke based on the impact it would have on large versus small markets, I might actually prefer the "no-draft, everyone is a FA model" over a totally random draft.  The big markets will always have some big advantages but the volatility of getting stars on rookie deals could make that even worse.  At least if you do some things like eliminate max salaries, keep a salary cap, and make everyone a free agent you should see some flattening of the elite talent around the league.  Adding Ben Simmons to GS for the next several years for less than MLE money, for example, could lead to just ridiculous results if nothing else about the current system were to change.

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davis171 Newbie

davis171

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5 minutes ago, KB21 said:

We had draft capital to trade for them and could have also dangled Prince for a veteran.  

Um that doesn't help our cap situation contracts got to still match. And what exact veterans would push this team to top 2 in the east.

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AHF Grand Master

AHF

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2 minutes ago, KB21 said:

We had draft capital to trade for them and could have also dangled Prince for a veteran.  

Let's look at that roster.

Step 1:  

You are resigning Sap for 3/90.  You are bringing back Ilya on a 2 year / $12M contract.

Are you matching THJr?

 

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