Supes v. KB, Nope! Just some JJJ v. Marvin Bagley talk

[DBac]

56 minutes ago, AHawks89 said:

Out of the 50 threads about this franchise and who we are drafting, one of these threads will end up in the classic forums. Someone will be eating a lot of crow. :) 

Most def. That's why I'm trying not to get into too much hyperbole.

[Spud2nique]

5 minutes ago, AHF said:

I'm actually not on board with labeling him soft or uncoordinated.  Neither of those are the concerns for me with him.  Was just saying that being uncoordinated is different from being soft.  The first is a physical issue and the second is a mental one.

You aren’t concerned that he’s uncoordinated or soft? I think that should concern all Hawks fans everywhere. Unless he has a turbo button on his ass, im worried!

[Spud2nique]

Another jjj concern and a big one...he shoots from the chinny chin chin. Hmmm..looks like a polished Joakim Noah out there! Nice!

[NBASupes]

40 minutes ago, AHF said:

Him being "soft" or not is a mental issue more than anything physical.  

That issue is clearly something he can change. That's mental

[KB21]

1 hour ago, AHF said:

I'm actually not on board with labeling him soft or uncoordinated.  Neither of those are the concerns for me with him.  Was just saying that being uncoordinated is different from being soft.  The first is a physical issue and the second is a mental one.

...and neither are true about Jaren Jackson Jr.

[Dragitoff]

Will y'all please take the JJJ vs. Bagley argument to the thread that is specific to just that argument?????

[KB21]

2 minutes ago, Dragitoff said:

Will y'all please take the JJJ vs. Bagley argument to the thread that is specific to just that argument?????

The last time I checked, this is a draft thread, and Jackson/Bagley are draft prospects.

[KB21]

1 minute ago, Dragitoff said:

Yeah and you guys just keep arguing the same shit page after page and neither side is changing their minds so they created a separate thread so those of us who actually want to discuss something other than Bagley and JJJ have a place to do it without stepping over the dead horse that looks like a picked over carcass from Walking Dead after all the beating it's taken! 

....and as long as false comments about JJJ are being posted in this thread, I will continue to post about him and Bagley in this thread.

[Dragitoff]

1 minute ago, KB21 said:

....and as long as false comments about JJJ are being posted in this thread, I will continue to post about him and Bagley in this thread.

That's why I said "y'all".  I personally don't like either one of them.  They've both got holes in their games as does every other prospect.  I wish BOTH sides would take the argument to the thread that was created for that argument instead of carrying it on here and there and every which where.  

[NBASupes]

35 minutes ago, KB21 said:

No one that does evaluations on these players agree with it.  I challenge you to find one source that describes his athleticism as uncoordinated and also calls him a soft prospect?  You can't, because no one with more than half a brain would say that.  There is not a single evaluation on him, outside of a couple of posters on this board who have convinced themselves of something just to have the opposite view of me.  If Jackson is soft, then Bagley is charmin because Jackson easily knocked Bagley off his position when the two faced each other.  In fact, Bagley had to fake an eye injury just to get out of the match up.

You literally posted nbadraft.net that questioned his balance several times. I just read an article Brad posted that questioned his balance/coordination. Son, most people who are objective have questioned it. The problem is, most question it and move on as if it's something that tends to improve when I haven't seen cases of that at all. I questioned Embiid style of play, that he ends up on floor too much trying to play like D. Wade or Ginobili. How that will just put a lot of wear and tear on his body. Has he changed since playing in the NBA. Absolutely not, he does it more than ever. 

 

JJJ is soft. I've watched over 15 games and he is constantly avoiding contact, that's why he lives at the 3PT line even if he is not shooting. I mean, when Al used to get accused of it, I never tried to deny it. It was true, I just knew that wasn't how he played at UF and at first in Atlanta but after to peck injuries, it changes your perspective. JJJ does this at 18 v. mainly teenagers, I do have a major issue with that because from my time scouting players, that is one area players rarely improve even though it's all mental and technically, he could improve it. I would rather him struggle and fight than just not want to battle at all especially v. teenagers. In the NBA as a rook, I get it. The bigs are tough, physical and much stronger but in college though and you 6'11. I can't have that be an excuse. They played Purdue, he rarely guarded Haas. He was mainly covered by Edwards. He struggled as Edwards was physical with him. Edwards is only 6'8 and he's not even that athletic or strong. That doesn't bother you? When Bagley was getting his ass handled to him by BC in the paint, I had quarrels. You tell me you don't? 

Bagley isn't easily knocked out of position especially on rebounds. Not sure what you are talking about? Care to explain instead of throw out random hyperbole. What? He faked what? Are you serious son? Are you serious? Did you not watch that game? Man, sometimes I just got to realize you are a troll. Anyway, here are the quotes. 

Quotes from other websites: 

" Foul trouble was a main reason why his playing time was diminished throughout his FR season ... Needs to work on maintaining his balance as a low-post defender" - nbadraft.net

"In addition, he could at times get a bit off balance when defending one-on-one in the post. He was a very solid post defender, and wasn't a guy who was biting at every pump fake, but this is definitely an area he could improve upon." - CBSsports.com

 

"Big man with good mobility. Long arms. Must be great around the basket, right? Not yet. Jackson struggles to finish around the rim, mostly due to a lack of explosiveness when he goes. Jackson still needs to grow into his body a bit and fill out his frame. I wouldn’t say he’s physically weak, but he already struggles to finish around the rim at the college level. Against bigger and stronger interior defenders at the NBA level, we could see a bit of a problem trying to convert these easy opportunities.

He doesn’t look terribly balanced going up against contact — that usually leads to unfinished shots and weak attempts inside.

 

https://streamable.com/x8t5y

It could be why we rarely see him roll to the basket on pick action. Almost everything out of pick situations ends up with a jumper. Diving to the basket is great when nobody has rotated to protect the tin. But throw a defender in the way and he’s not jumping over them or crafty enough to step around them.

Synergy Sports has Jackson finishing 49.3 percent of his shots around the basket. Jackson has scored 73 points on 69 shot attempts around the basket (non post-ups). Of the 713 players with at least 65 possessions in these situations, Jackson ranks 568th with 105.8 points per 100 possessions. That is really not good for a player with his size and wingspan. He has to find a way to score like a real weapon around the basket.

The passing may loom as a much tougher weakness in his game. He throws terrible passes often with zero approach to taking a good angle. Sometimes this happens instead of crashing into an opponent going to the basket. There seems to be a control problem with Jackson and how he takes care of the ball. This may correct itself as he gets used to the speed of the game and does more skill development work. A lot of these problems can be tied to a player’s handle. It limits how comfortable he feels with the ball, which can induce more panicked decisions." - FanRag

 

"His biggest offensive flaw is he doesn’t finish as well as you’d expect him to, given his size-speed-athleticism combination. When contact comes, he gets knocked off balance pretty easily, which causes him to take shots from awkward angles." - Sportsmockery

[KB21]

https://www.thestepien.com/jaren-jackson/

Quote

STRENGTHS

• One of the youngest players in the class (just turned 18) and a late bloomer physically. Has seemingly added legitimate muscle and looks bouncier with superior mobility since the Hoop Summit.
• Listed at 225 pounds but looks capable of strength addition in his upper and lower body with wide shoulders and not overly thin legs.
• Good size for a modern five at 6-foot-10 with plus length (7-foot-4 wingspan). Length really pops on film.
• Fluid and coordinated changing ends as a runner with plus hands and despite lacking some explosion from a stand-still he can play above the rim in space.
• Skilled offensively. Has a bit of a knuckleball shot with a lower release but is comfortable from college 3pt range.
• Can put on the ball on the floor in space, transition or on closeouts, possessing rare control and agility for his size.
• Ambidextrous finisher around the rim with plus touch and is a high-level offensive rebounder.
• Outstanding rim protection anticipation, range and instincts. Quick to the ball and off the floor.
• Has the feet to defend in space and contain more agile ball-handling NBA fours on closeouts.

Fluid, coordinated, possessing rare control and agility.  Hmm.

Quote

WEAKNESSES

• Not an overly explosive leaper and looked a bit heavy-footed defending on the perimeter in high school, but looks to have changed his body/gotten more mobile.
• While possessing legitimate skill he’s not a shifty ball-handler, especially in traffic, and lacks the passing awareness currently to have a consistent playmaking role.
• Is the shooting for real? His mechanics are probably more projectable into NBA space given his lower release but will it translate?

Basically, nothing in his weaknesses section about a lack of coordination, weakness, or any other BS comment you have posted about him.

[kg01]

Bagley is Michael Beasley reincarnated.  Empty nimbers.

It needed to be said.

[NBASupes]

Just now, KB21 said:

https://www.thestepien.com/jaren-jackson/

Fluid, coordinated, possessing rare control and agility.  Hmm.

Basically, nothing in his weaknesses section about a lack of coordination, weakness, or any other BS comment you have posted about him.

Like I said, if it doesn't make JJJ look good, it's not real to KB. Son, you can't see the forest from the trees. There is no purposing in trying to sense with concrete. It will just stay stuck in it's original form and guess what, it can't hear you because it's concrete. 

[NBASupes]

3 hours ago, AHF said:

He won't have the same physical edge in the NBA that he did in college so it will be interesting to see.

I disagree. Here is what I wrote on RealGM: 

 

"Bagley has great offensive feel in the paint. He just lacks post moves. Now this can be problematic in general but his elite first step and his elite quickness will be his saving grace. We seen Bosh who early on lacked post moves rely on a good first step and good quickness as well as a great feel to score in the post and it translated. So this idea that it will not for Bagley is foolish. Which is why the Faried comparison is nonsense off the top. Not to mention Bagley has excellent body control and WR(Football) hands in terms of catching the ball. 

His first step and quickness is generational, if anything, it's more deadly in the NBA where there is space and less zone defenses. Like I said in here before, the BIGGEST issue with Marvin Bagley to naysayers is a complete lack of understanding how ATHLETIC he is. Most think he's quick and athletic but like quick and athletic. They don't realize that he's GENERATIONAL quick and his first step for his size is GENERATIONAL. Anyone over 6'10 isn't as quick as Malik Monk nor are they even close. He is. Anyone over 6'10 doesn't have De'Aaron Fox first step nor are they even in the same area code, he is. That's what is special about Bagley. He doesn't have freak athletic ability like Griffin or Kemp. He is a generational freak athlete. Meaning, there are only a few like him every 50 years. Westbrook, MJ, Rose. These do not come around almost at all. That's why Bagley is the best prospect to me in the draft. He's the easiest to make elite because this athletic combination is EXTREMELY rare. Most players don't have elite first step, quickness, lateral quickness, agility, speed, and acceleration. That's unheard of the few that got it have won MVPs. He is also the first big to have it which makes him something NO ONE has seen before. He's kinda like MJ in 1984. You really don't know what he is, but he's really really athletic. Too small to be a SF, can't really run an offense, can't shoot so he's not a SG, what's his position? He doesn't have one. MJ created one. So we just don't know as we never seen anyone like him athletically. 

As well as simply not being impressed by his frame. He looks like WCS, Thad Young, Chris Bosh, Hakeem O, Chris McCullough, M. Chriss. Most of these guys are not stars in the NBA. Most are underwhelming. The one superstar of the bunch was extremely skilled. It's basically a football WR frame. Doesn't really work in the paint like that. All are really athletic as how else you gonna make the NBA with this frame. Add that Bagley only has 2+ wingspan, that's a downer for some. AD had a 6+ wingspan. This is a freak league, Bagley isn't a freak body wise. 

Lastly, it's an extremely talented draft. So guys are pumping their guys. It could be Bamba, Young, JJJ, Carter Jr, Doncic, Porter Jr, etc. Everyone is pumping their guys and dumping on those who aren't their guys. 

So you ask me why Bagley is my #1 guy. There are a lot of reasons but simply put, he's a generational athletic, with a great feel for scoring, has high BBIQ on offense, great at movement, and highly coachable. That's why he's my #1 guy. I do feel like he has the potential to be one of the best to play this game. I feel like if you pass on him, you are making a mistake for a lifetime. That's how I feel."

[KB21]

4 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Like I said, if it doesn't make JJJ look good, it's not real to KB. Son, you can't see the forest from the trees. There is no purposing in trying to sense with concrete. It will just stay stuck in it's original form and guess what, it can't hear you because it's concrete. 

Oh, you mean like when a report doesn't have Bagley painted as a transcendent superstar, it is automatically dismissed by you and you complain that the author of said report simply doesn't like the archetype of the player that Bagley is and is clearly biased against him.

Your problem is that JJJ isn't Bagely, so you are going to fabricate criticism on him just to build your guy up.

[NBASupes]

Just now, KB21 said:

Oh, you mean like when a report doesn't have Bagley painted as a transcendent superstar, it is automatically dismissed by you and you complain that the author of said report simply doesn't like the archetype of the player that Bagley is and is clearly biased against him.

Your problem is that JJJ isn't Bagely, so you are going to fabricate criticism on him just to build your guy up.

I never dismissed any negative article on Bagley. Now I have completely dismissed certain sources. In particular, an one star source you love to quote as recently as last season. They recently had Zach Collins as their 6th best prospect ahead of Tatum and Donovan Mitchell. They had John Collins as the 35th best prospect and had Kuzma as undraftable. These are your heroes. They love these 3/D bigs even though most of them flop in the NBA. They love their projectability and two way potential. They say stuff like Tatum is a poor defender but say, he does have some potential defensively and say things like Bagley is a poor defender but he could become great at switching and perimeter defense with his tools. Now if it doesn't change, they can brag and say, see, we told you but let's say Bagley does improve tremendously on defense and shooting like Tatum, they will use that one little line and say, well, we never said he couldn't get better. That's what I call a bullshit source. It's making a strong but covering your ass just in case in comes true. I can't deal with shady wanna right people. 

https://www.thestepien.com/2017-2/

 

The pleas after they f***ed up: https://www.thestepien.com/2018/01/04/coles-draft-reflections/

 

Like I said, I have never dismissed any negative article. I only will challenge if the source is trash. DX has been critical at times of Bagley but I haven't dismissed them once if I agree or not. Like I said in the past, don't assume what you do is what I do. 

That last sentence didn't make sense so I won't even address it. It's just another troll effort. I am going to start edited your post in my replies. Some of your sentences are just trolling to an extreme degree. 

[NBASupes]

@AHF, have you had a chance to look at my reply to you. I would like to see what you take is? Because even with what I said, for the generational athletes, all of them had a 4+ wingspan compared to their height. Westbrook - 6'3.5 and 6'7.5 wingspan. Rose was 6'2.5 but 6'8 wingspan. MJ was 6'6 but 6'11 wingspan. All of these players outside of Rose had exceptional bodies which played well with their health long term. Now Bagley frame has been good for health and maintaining athleticism but we haven't seen anyone with Bagley frame be effective once their athletic ability is no longer very good. We saw Hakeem regress and we never seen Bosh deep into age as he had the health issues. 

 

What do you think? I really like quality responses. Sometimes I get tired of talking sense with the other guy. 

[KB21]

You just completely dismissed the best site on the internet about the NBA draft.  LOL!  Don't say anything about you not dismissing negative talk on Marvin Bagley.  You are completely incapable of identifying the fact that he is not a good defender at all and has a limited skill set offensively.  

I guess you don't like Sam Vecenie either.

[KB21]

1 hour ago, NBASupes said:

(edited for proper Bart usage! ~lw3)

Resorting to personal attacks.  That is a sure sign that you cannot win the argument.

[KB21]

Sam Vecenie on Jaren Jackson Jr:

Quote

Jackson is a perfect center prospect for the modern NBA. There’s no organization he wouldn’t be valuable in, with his rare combination of floor spacing and defensive acumen. For me, Jackson is the best defender in the draft. He’s an elite rim protector and his 14.3 percent block rate is the top mark among draft-eligible prospects. The big man also has the best fundamentals and quickness of any big in this class as a perimeter defender, as his 7-5 wingspan and polished footwork allow him to be a true difference-maker at dissuading penetration from opposing guards. His ability on the defensive glass is a bit of a question mark, given his sub-20 percent rebounding rate on that end, but he has the tools to get the job done.

He's the perfect center prospect for the modern NBA, but apparently not the Hawks, who needs a center that can't defend that position.