John Collins vs Josh SMITH vs Paul MillSAP vs...?

[AHF]

10 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Per Game Table

Rk	Player	Season	Age	G	GS	MP	FG	FGA	FG%	3P	3PA	3P%	2P	2PA	2P%	eFG%	FT	FTA	FT%	ORB	DRB	TRB	AST	STL	BLK	TOV	PF	PTS
1	John Collins	2020-21	23	63	63	29.3	6.8	12.2	.556	1.3	3.3	.399	5.5	8.9	.615	.610	2.7	3.2	.833	1.9	5.5	7.4	1.2	0.5	1.0	1.3	3.1	17.6
2	Paul Millsap	2013-14	28	74	73	33.5	6.5	14.1	.461	1.0	2.9	.358	5.5	11.3	.487	.498	3.9	5.3	.731	2.1	6.4	8.5	3.1	1.7	1.1	2.5	2.8	17.9

Provided by Stathead.com: View Stathead Tool Used
Generated 8/4/2021.

 

The numbers are what they are. Sap was much better at passing and playing defense. The rebounding could be a wash and yes John is a better scorer... but I would also say that John plays with a much better PG too.

Age 28 to 31 Millsap is clearly better than age 23 JC given his passing and defense versus the much more efficient scoring of JC.  Once Millsap went to Denver, he fell off from that peak and I'll take age 23 JC over age 32+ Millsap.

[NBASupes]

11 hours ago, sillent said:

JC beat Millsap coming in the door. Millsap was a gem for us don't get me wrong but it's another case of skill vs talent. JC has arguably more skill than Sap compared to his age and definitely more talent. 

I'd let Millsap go 1000's over JC. I can't necessarily say the same if it was Smoove but you're right ultimately Smoove declined in his prime. JC is already primed to be better as he ages because of his skillsets.

JC never in his career has had more skill than Sap. Ever.

They are similar talents as well. 

What JC has is he has his strengths and he evolved much faster than Sap. Both came in as rookies playing to what they do best but Sap would improve decently each year but he wasn't good by his 5th year. JC played good in his 4th year. His growth has been larger than Sap but Sap took an unexpected jump when he added range. JC was working on his range as a rookie and became legit by his 3rd year.

Sap didn't start adding range till he left Utah and was playing under Bud. It's not his fault, Bud changed the game pushing range on Sap and Horford which created what we have today as the modern NBA. He was the first of the mohicans. Shit, it turned him into an all star level player. When we signed him, he was just expected to replace Smoove but not as good as Smoove. 

Sap at his peak is a very good player. While at the same stage, JC is a good player, Sap was a solid player. Sap was bordering good when we signed him but Smoove had a better career up to this point compared to Sap. 

[Peoriabird]

6 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

JC never in his career has had more skill than Sap. Ever.

 

The hate for John knows no bounds!  LOL!  Sap has never in his career been a 20/10 guy.  In fact he has never average 20 ppg or 10 rpg let alone in the same year.  I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

[NBASupes]

2 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

The hate for John knows no bounds!  LOL!  Sap has never in his career been a 20/10 guy.  In fact he has never average 20 ppg or 10 rpg let alone in the same year.  I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Lol at you think points equals skill. As if passing, versatility, ball handling, shot creation doesn't exist. JC fans live in 1992

[Diesel]

18 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

LOL!  You cherry picked 1 season from each to make a comparison??  John has 2 seasons were he averaged over 9.8 rpg.  Sap only had 1 season out of 15 where he averaged at least 9 rpg. and no it wasn't in his 1st 3 season as a pro like John.

No...

I took your words and found the stats... 

Didn't you say:

Quote

Sap was also like 28 years old but no he wasn't a better rebounder than JC nor was he a better scorer.

At 28 years old, Sap was a better rebounder and scoring was about a wash... 

Like I said before, JC's key is that he's a stretch 4 in a time when Stretch 4s are welcome.  He shoots 40% from 3... that's his biggest thing.   Defensively he doesn't match up with Sap or Smoove and that's where the issues lie.  JC has one trick that works really well for him and everything else is just ho-hum...

[Peoriabird]

1 minute ago, NBASupes said:

Lol at you think points equals skill. As if passing, versatility, ball handling, shot creation doesn't exist. JC fans live in 1992

Millsap wasn't doing any of what you described in his 1st 4 years.  So let compare apple to apple for a change!

[Peoriabird]

Just now, Diesel said:

No...

I took your words and found the stats... 

Didn't you say:

At 28 years old, Sap was a better rebounder and scoring was about a wash... 

Like I said before, JC's key is that he's a stretch 4 in a time when Stretch 4s are welcome.  He shoots 40% from 3... that's his biggest thing.   Defensively he doesn't match up with Sap or Smoove and that's where the issues lie.  JC has one trick that works really well for him and everything else is just ho-hum...

Your argument is that Millsap was a better player.  You didn't say that Millsap had a better season at age 28 vs JC's at age 23 season

[Peoriabird]

10 minutes ago, Diesel said:

JC has one trick that works really well for him and everything else is just ho-hum...

LOL!!!  Where do these JC haters come from???

[Diesel]

1 minute ago, Peoriabird said:

Your argument is that Millsap was a better player.  You didn't say that Millsap had a better season at age 28 vs JC's at age 23 season

You must have me confused with somebody else...

Here's my entrance into the conversation:

Quote

Not so fast my friend.

JC only has the edge in 3 pt shooting.   And depending on what year you consider, that's only by a little.   Sap = Better rebounder.  Sap = Better Passer (by a mile).   Sap = Better defender. (About 2 spg)

We love JC... but let's not overstate what he does well.   It's just scoring and being a 40% three point shooter.   Everything else is average and defensively.. close to below average. 

Anybody can look at Old man Sap whose stats have deteriorated vs. JC whose young and just entering into his prime and say that JC is the "Better Player"... that's not apples to apples.   Surely you don't want to consider JC as a Hawk vs. Sap as a Hawk.. because Sap would be considered better.   So... Depending on what year you choose, Sap is better at rebounding, passing, and defense.  While JC will have the edge is shooting from range and shooting effeciency. 

[Diesel]

3 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

LOL!!!  Where do these JC haters come rom???

1.3 apg, 7.4 rpg, 0.5spg, 1.0 bpg...

HO...  HUM....

 

[AHF]

3 minutes ago, Diesel said:

No...

I took your words and found the stats... 

Didn't you say:

At 28 years old, Sap was a better rebounder and scoring was about a wash... 

Sap was better overall but this isn't accurate.

Scoring was a huge plus for JC since the overall points per 36 was 19.6 per 36 for Sap and 21.6 per 36 for JC.  Not only did he score more per minute, but JC shot .556% FG%, .399% 3pt% while Sap shot .461% FG%, .358% 3pt%.  JC scored more points per minute on fewer attempts per minute due to his better efficiency.

For rebounding, it was pretty even.

JC 9.1 rebounds per 36

Sap 9.1 rebounds per 36

Worth noting that JC's other three seasons were all higher than Sap's career high rebounds per 36.  The difference in overall rebounding was that Sap played with a weak rebounding center while JC played with the league leader and Sap was backed up by Mike Scott and JC was backed up by Gallo so naturally Sap played a few more minutes per game.

Sap's edge comes in his standout defense and the great passing between him and Horford in the frontcourt.

 

[Diesel]

6 minutes ago, AHF said:

Sap was better overall but this isn't accurate.

Scoring was a huge plus for JC since the overall points per 36 was 19.6 per 36 for Sap and 21.6 per 36 for JC.  Not only did he score more per minute, but JC shot .556% FG%, .399% 3pt% while Sap shot .461% FG%, .358% 3pt%.  JC scored more points per minute on fewer attempts per minute due to his better efficiency.

For rebounding, it was pretty even.

JC 9.1 rebounds per 36

Sap 9.1 rebounds per 36

Worth noting that JC's other three seasons were all higher than Sap's career high rebounds per 36.  The difference in overall rebounding was that Sap played with a weak rebounding center while JC played with the league leader and Sap was backed up by Mike Scott and JC was backed up by Gallo so naturally Sap played a few more minutes per game.

Sap's edge comes in his standout defense and the great passing between him and Horford in the frontcourt.

 

Like was said....

JC is the more efficient scorer and he scored more and depending on season, he may have rebounded more.   That was already conceded.   But everywhere else on JC's resume' is kinda average.   But I have a good comparison for you... coming up. 

[NBASupes]

18 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

Millsap wasn't doing any of what you described in his 1st 4 years.  So let compare apple to apple for a change!

What the hell! Sap was always playing his style of Basketball dating back to LA Tech. He just added range. That's the difference. He had that nice 10ft jumper and around year 5 added the 16th footer. 

JC just went from around the basket at Wake to shooting threes for the Hawks as a rookie. 

[Diesel]

It occurred to me that as we look at JC numbers critically... he's in the same position that many other guys have been in trying to get a max deal.  This is the comparison I found for JC.... Tobias Harris.

Going into his max deal, this is the season of Tobias Harris before he got it.

 

Per Game Table

Rk	Player	Season	Age	G	GS	MP	FG	FGA	FG%	3P	3PA	3P%	2P	2PA	2P%	eFG%	FT	FTA	FT%	ORB	DRB	TRB	AST	STL	BLK	TOV	PF	PTS
1	John Collins	2020-21	23	63	63	29.3	6.8	12.2	.556	1.3	3.3	.399	5.5	8.9	.615	.610	2.7	3.2	.833	1.9	5.5	7.4	1.2	0.5	1.0	1.3	3.1	17.6
2	Tobias Harris	2018-19	26	82	82	34.7	7.5	15.3	.487	1.9	4.8	.397	5.5	10.5	.528	.549	3.2	3.7	.866	0.8	7.0	7.9	2.8	0.6	0.5	1.8	2.2	20.0

Provided by Stathead.com: View Stathead Tool Used
Generated 8/4/2021.

 

Notice, that Tobias Harris' season mirrors exactly what we see in JC. From scoring effeciency and Three point shooting to Ho Humness of everything else... except assists. The question is why is JC's assists numbers so low? The answer: JC is a finisher. In a sense, he is a product of Trae. Yes, JC can hit a three point shot.. but Trae finds him in his spots. Trae draws so much defense that JC gets wide open looks most of the time. And still JC doesn't pass out of his shooting. You have to look critically but that's why guys like Harris and Sap are putting up like 2.8 and 3.5 respectively assists per game... those guys can initiate some offense. JC hasn't had to yet or hasn't.

[sillent]

1 hour ago, Diesel said:

Not so fast my friend.

JC only has the edge in 3 pt shooting.   And depending on what year you consider, that's only by a little.   Sap = Better rebounder.  Sap = Better Passer (by a mile).   Sap = Better defender. (About 2 spg)

We love JC... but let's not overstate what he does well.   It's just scoring and being a 40% three point shooter.   Everything else is average and defensively.. close to below average. 

I'll give you better passer and defender. Don't forget though we had an opportunity to keep Paul and groom JC under him. We let Paul walk for a reason. John didn't disappoint. Nobody was like we wish we had Paul back.

I love what Paul did for us and would like him back now in a 3rd string role but ever since JC has been in the league there's been no debate over wanting Paul over him.

[AHF]

1 minute ago, Diesel said:

It occurred to me that as we look at JC numbers critically... he's in the same position that many other guys have been in trying to get a max deal.  This is the comparison I found for JC.... Tobias Harris.

Going into his max deal, this is the season of Tobias Harris before he got it.

 

Per Game Table

Rk	Player	Season	Age	G	GS	MP	FG	FGA	FG%	3P	3PA	3P%	2P	2PA	2P%	eFG%	FT	FTA	FT%	ORB	DRB	TRB	AST	STL	BLK	TOV	PF	PTS
1	John Collins	2020-21	23	63	63	29.3	6.8	12.2	.556	1.3	3.3	.399	5.5	8.9	.615	.610	2.7	3.2	.833	1.9	5.5	7.4	1.2	0.5	1.0	1.3	3.1	17.6
2	Tobias Harris	2018-19	26	82	82	34.7	7.5	15.3	.487	1.9	4.8	.397	5.5	10.5	.528	.549	3.2	3.7	.866	0.8	7.0	7.9	2.8	0.6	0.5	1.8	2.2	20.0

Provided by Stathead.com: View Stathead Tool Used
Generated 8/4/2021.

 

Notice, that Tobias Harris' season mirrors exactly what we see in JC. From scoring effeciency and Three point shooting to Ho Humness of everything else... except assists. The question is why is JC's assists numbers so low? The answer: JC is a finisher. In a sense, he is a product of Trae. Yes, JC can hit a three point shot.. but Trae finds him in his spots. Trae draws so much defense that JC gets wide open looks most of the time. And still JC doesn't pass out of his shooting. You have to look critically but that's why guys like Harris and Sap are putting up like 2.8 and 3.5 respectively assists per game... those guys can initiate some offense. JC hasn't had to yet or hasn't.

I think JC provides significantly more help rim protection than Harris and have to note that Harris is a career 6.1 rpg guy while JC is a career 8.4 rpg guy.  His better rebounding is one reason I like JC much more than I like Harris.  The younger age of JC is also an edge.  23 year olds generally have more improvement ahead of them than 26 year olds.

[Diesel]

1 minute ago, sillent said:

I'll give you better passer and defender. Don't forget though we had an opportunity to keep Paul and groom JC under him. We let Paul walk for a reason. John didn't disappoint. Nobody was like we wish we had Paul back.

I love what Paul did for us and would like him back now in a 3rd string role but ever since JC has been in the league there's been no debate over wanting Paul over him.

Unfortunately, I don't think JC would have had a chance to develop if Paul would have stayed.  Frankly, Paul didn't go to Denver and just totally disappear.   He still put up a good season or two.  Remember, JC had some hard question marks coming into his rookie year.  He has recasted himself as a stretch 4 and that's a good thing.  So it was best that Paul left. 

 

[Peoriabird]

5 minutes ago, Diesel said:

It occurred to me that as we look at JC numbers critically... he's in the same position that many other guys have been in trying to get a max deal.  This is the comparison I found for JC.... Tobias Harris.

Going into his max deal, this is the season of Tobias Harris before he got it.

 

Per Game Table

Rk	Player	Season	Age	G	GS	MP	FG	FGA	FG%	3P	3PA	3P%	2P	2PA	2P%	eFG%	FT	FTA	FT%	ORB	DRB	TRB	AST	STL	BLK	TOV	PF	PTS
1	John Collins	2020-21	23	63	63	29.3	6.8	12.2	.556	1.3	3.3	.399	5.5	8.9	.615	.610	2.7	3.2	.833	1.9	5.5	7.4	1.2	0.5	1.0	1.3	3.1	17.6
2	Tobias Harris	2018-19	26	82	82	34.7	7.5	15.3	.487	1.9	4.8	.397	5.5	10.5	.528	.549	3.2	3.7	.866	0.8	7.0	7.9	2.8	0.6	0.5	1.8	2.2	20.0

Provided by Stathead.com: View Stathead Tool Used
Generated 8/4/2021.

 

Notice, that Tobias Harris' season mirrors exactly what we see in JC. From scoring effeciency and Three point shooting to Ho Humness of everything else... except assists. The question is why is JC's assists numbers so low? The answer: JC is a finisher. In a sense, he is a product of Trae. Yes, JC can hit a three point shot.. but Trae finds him in his spots. Trae draws so much defense that JC gets wide open looks most of the time. And still JC doesn't pass out of his shooting. You have to look critically but that's why guys like Harris and Sap are putting up like 2.8 and 3.5 respectively assists per game... those guys can initiate some offense. JC hasn't had to yet or hasn't.

You love these random season comparisons!  Why did you pick JC's 4th season in the league to compare with Tobias' 7 season again?

[NBASupes]

The things JC added asap was his movement skills which was sublime even with Dennis and we saw that as a rookie. He didn't show it at Wake but the college game is different. With Sap, he was more skilled but he didn't look much different in the NBA than college. He was just better than expected because his skill was higher than expected.

JC also added range asap.

Edited August 4, 2021 by NBASupes

[Diesel]

1 minute ago, AHF said:

I think JC provides significantly more help rim protection than Harris and have to note that Harris is a career 6.1 rpg guy while JC is a career 8.4 rpg guy.  His better rebounding is one reason I like JC much more than I like Harris.  The younger age of JC is also an edge.  23 year olds generally have more improvement ahead of them than 26 year olds.

I agree.  I think that with his youth and his willingness to continue to develop his game, JC could be a monster.  Honestly, I have not been made with Harris' development.  I think people look at the contract before they look at his game.   My problem with Harris showed up in the series that we played against them....   He doesn't always insert himself into situations.  What I mean is that in our series, he could score at will.   However, there were many times, he just disappeared. This is why he is not a max player.   A max player would have continued to insert himself into the game. It's the same flaw that the world seen in Ben Simmons.   When Ben passed up that Dunk... it was the end for Philly... because their max player deferred.  Does it make Simmons a bad player...   No not at all.. I would love to have him.  It just means that you need to know what you have and what you have around him..   The same is true of JC.   I think the best thing that happened to him was Trae.   Not that Trae makes him.. but Trae takes so much pressure off of him and allows him to be him. 

 

4 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

You love these random season comparisons!  Why did you pick JC's 4th season in the league to compare with Tobias' 7 season again?

Seasons that led up to Max Contracts.  

 

It was not that random.