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The basketball gods were not with us. ..

Diesel

By Diesel
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If Trae didn't step on the Ref's foot... what would have happened?  

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Final_quest Grand Master

Final_quest

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24 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Most of the time, that's statement about 2 HOFers is in Hindsight.

What I mean is.. that if we win a championship, somebody on this squad will soon become a HOF guy. 

I mean let's prove this to you.

Milwaukee won last year.  Who are their two HOFer?

When GS won their first championship... did they even have a HOFer?

After Lebron won in Cleveland, Kyrie's name started to get HOF buzz. 

Houston had Olajuwon and they still haven't found anybody HOF worthy (from his first team). 

Detroit both groups were just a series of Great players when they first won the title. 

 

The times when you had bonafide HOFers ona championship team from the beginning of the season is;

1. IF the team was put together.  such as Boston's big three... Lebron pulling HOFers to play with him or the old Celtics. 

2.  guys played long enough to finally win a ring...  Such as Dallas (Kidd and Dirk)  Most of the Bird led Celtics.  Every Laker team after Magic's first year.  Jordan and Pippen (But Pipp didn't really get in the conversation until the Bulls won their first one.

So first, I reject that notion.   Not everyteam is going to make themselves into a super team to win a championship... Giannis proved that... And not every team needs to.

Here's the cold hard Truth that should really blow your mind.  Had Trae not gotten hurt, we would have beat Milwaukee and I believe we would have beat Phoenix...  And had we done that...  Either Gallo, Clint, or Bogi would be headed to the HOF.   That is how it works.  You win first, then you are rewarded. 

Kyrie was scoring 40 points in the finals.  I can't think of a guy on our team outside of Trae who has scored 40 points in a game in their career. 

There are teams who have won a title without superstars, but it's the exception.  And I reject this idea that Gallo wins a title and is suddenly considered to be a HOF guy.  He hasn't been an all star his entire career, and suddenly people will say he's in the Hall because his team won a championship where he's the 6th man.  Nice idea, but that's not how it works.

I think actual talent makes you a champion.  Klay has the record for most points in a quarter, and our guys can't even score that much in a game.  He's a legit talent.  The title didn't give him super powers to be one of the best shooters of all time.  They won the title because he had the talent.  The hindsight premise is way off.  

Who is the last team to win a title with only one all star player?  It doesn't happen more than once a generation.  

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RedDawg#8 Grand Master

RedDawg#8

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46 minutes ago, Diesel said:

We didn't have Trae for Game 4 and we beat the Bucks.   With Trae we won game 1.   Without Giannis and having a healthy Trae, we would have beaten them in 6.

 

With a healthy Trae, Giannis doesn't get injured in the 3rd quarter of game 4, because Lou would not have been playing to throw that low arching lob pass that took Clint's momentum in to Giannis.

Just saying, there is a domino effect with all of these scenarios. Healthy Trae likely prevents an injured Giannis.

We played out of our minds in game 4 as well because we had an extra motivation without Trae. Us being at home, I like our chances, but I just don't see the Buck being down 1-2 and takings us lightly the way that they did with Trae out

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Diesel Grand Master

Diesel

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7 hours ago, Final_quest said:

Kyrie was scoring 40 points in the finals.  I can't think of a guy on our team outside of Trae who has scored 40 points in a game in their career. 

There are teams who have won a title without superstars, but it's the exception.  And I reject this idea that Gallo wins a title and is suddenly considered to be a HOF guy.  He hasn't been an all star his entire career, and suddenly people will say he's in the Hall because his team won a championship where he's the 6th man.  Nice idea, but that's not how it works.

I think actual talent makes you a champion.  Klay has the record for most points in a quarter, and our guys can't even score that much in a game.  He's a legit talent.  The title didn't give him super powers to be one of the best shooters of all time.  They won the title because he had the talent.  The hindsight premise is way off.  

Who is the last team to win a title with only one all star player?  It doesn't happen more than once a generation.  

Kyrie had seasons before Lebron got there that were not worthy of Allstar mention.    However, like I said, had Kyrie not won a championship, his name would not be mentioned in HOF worth...  He's never been up for an MVP.   In fact, he broke away from Lebron because he recognized that Lebron was taking his shine.   But then he went to Boston and laid an egg.   It's not that he was mentioned in HOF circles until after he won a ring. 

About Gallo and Bogi..  What have they done overseas?

Gallo:

Italian League MVP (2008)

2× Italian League Best Player U-22 (2007, 2008)

EuroLeague Rising Star (2008)

 

Add an NBA Championship to this and he will probably be in the Hall. 

 

Bogi:

Add a NBA championship to this and Bogi definitely gets in the Hall of Fame. 

I didn't say that the championship gives anybody superpowers.  The Championship gives them the accolade needed to be considered  for the Hall of Fame. 

Bill Bradley is in the NBA Hall of fame.  Why.. He was on 2 NBA championship teams.   Earl the Pearl Monroe is in the Hall of Fame.   Gail Goodrich is in the Hall of Fame.  Look at their stats and accolades.   Aside from winning a championship, these guys did nothing.   It's the  equivalent of letting Shareef  in the Hall.  Reef had better numbers. 

 

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Final_quest Grand Master

Final_quest

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9 hours ago, Diesel said:

Kyrie had seasons before Lebron got there that were not worthy of Allstar mention.    However, like I said, had Kyrie not won a championship, his name would not be mentioned in HOF worth...  He's never been up for an MVP.   In fact, he broke away from Lebron because he recognized that Lebron was taking his shine.   But then he went to Boston and laid an egg.   It's not that he was mentioned in HOF circles until after he won a ring. 

About Gallo and Bogi..  What have they done overseas?

Gallo:

Italian League MVP (2008)

2× Italian League Best Player U-22 (2007, 2008)

EuroLeague Rising Star (2008)

 

Add an NBA Championship to this and he will probably be in the Hall. 

 

Bogi:

Add a NBA championship to this and Bogi definitely gets in the Hall of Fame. 

I didn't say that the championship gives anybody superpowers.  The Championship gives them the accolade needed to be considered  for the Hall of Fame. 

Bill Bradley is in the NBA Hall of fame.  Why.. He was on 2 NBA championship teams.   Earl the Pearl Monroe is in the Hall of Fame.   Gail Goodrich is in the Hall of Fame.  Look at their stats and accolades.   Aside from winning a championship, these guys did nothing.   It's the  equivalent of letting Shareef  in the Hall.  Reef had better numbers. 

 

I guess I would say when your main evidence is outlier HOF guys and then teams that won titles without the top talent in the league, you should ask yourself some questions.  Why do I need to bring up the lowest common denominator to make my point?  The best approach is taking the same road of the majority that won it all.  Get the best talent in the league or you will most likely lose to the teams that have it. 
My belief has also been that most champions start by drafting a superstar first, not trading or acquiring them in free agency.  Lebron joined with Dwade and then Kyrie, why?  Because he saw they had an established talent on the team good enough for him to partner with for a title.  You have to have a foundational piece before others want to join.  KD joins the splash brothers.  KG and Allen joined Paul Pierce. 
The exciting thing is we FINALLY have a guy of that caliber. We just need to find the right player to help him get us over the hump. And I am not negative.  I LOVE where we are.  We are so close I can taste it, and that energy may be where my hate towards people trying to suggest that guys like Gallo, Collins, Capela, or Bogi are good enough for us to get the job done.  Let's not settle for a field goal when we need a touchdown.  

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Diesel Grand Master

Diesel

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23 minutes ago, Final_quest said:

I guess I would say when your main evidence is outlier HOF guys and then teams that won titles without the top talent in the league, you should ask yourself some questions.  Why do I need to bring up the lowest common denominator to make my point?  The best approach is taking the same road of the majority that won it all.  Get the best talent in the league or you will most likely lose to the teams that have it. 
My belief has also been that most champions start by drafting a superstar first, not trading or acquiring them in free agency.  Lebron joined with Dwade and then Kyrie, why?  Because he saw they had an established talent on the team good enough for him to partner with for a title.  You have to have a foundational piece before others want to join.  KD joins the splash brothers.  KG and Allen joined Paul Pierce. 
The exciting thing is we FINALLY have a guy of that caliber. We just need to find the right player to help him get us over the hump. And I am not negative.  I LOVE where we are.  We are so close I can taste it, and that energy may be where my hate towards people trying to suggest that guys like Gallo, Collins, Capela, or Bogi are good enough for us to get the job done.  Let's not settle for a field goal when we need a touchdown.  

That's not what I said.

You never answered my question.  Who on the Milwaukee Bucks is the 2nd HOFer right now?

Building a Big three is a new thing FQ.  You believe that it has always been... NO  It's a new thing.   Most teams drafted good players and maybe picked up somebody good in FAcy and FAcy didn't come along until Kareem.  BUT...   This putting together of a super team is NEW.  Still, that doesn't mean that that's the only way or even the most used way to get to the NBA title.

Again,  if you look at teams that have Won the Championship their first time... MOST Of the Time, they only have 1 guy or sometimes NO guys who were considered HOF material at the time.

YOUR ARGUMENT is ALL HINDSIGHT.

I've given you case after case proving that but you still don't believe that NBA championships put people in the HOF line...  Answer the red question.

Lemme guess... Milwaukee is an outlier??   YOUR ARGUMENT IS ALL HINDSIGHT.

 

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Final_quest Grand Master

Final_quest

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2 hours ago, Diesel said:

 

Lemme guess... Milwaukee is an outlier??   YOUR ARGUMENT IS ALL HINDSIGHT.

 

Milwaukee could be, but it's not clear yet.  Remember when Middleton took over in that fourth quarter in the ECF?  He honestly could end up going into the Hall.  Milwaukee at least has 3 players in the top 35-40 of the league...and they have arguably the BEST player.  So, even if Middleton doesn't end up as a HOF, they are much closer to the criteria than we are.  But certainly could be an exception.    

My argument is not hindsight at all.  Your argument is players like Gallo win a title, and suddenly end up in the Hall due to your proposed theory that a title gets undeserving guys in the hall.  I think the most talented players like Klay who can go off for 37 in a quarter are lightyears above the talent of guys that we currently have.  Guys like Klay win you a title. 

The research is already done on this.  Here is someone's answer to this question on Quora.  It's solid.  Two hall of famers is the standard, period.  I'm not just making this up.  Don't be mad at me, read the receipts:

 

If we’re not counting coaches and we’re making the basketball HOF the standard, I can think of a few.

  • 1976–77 Portland Trail Blazers (Only Bill Walton — don’t let the wikis fool you into thinking Moses Malone was on this team)
  • 1993–94 Houston Rockets (Only Hakeem — Clyde showed up in 95 for the second championship)
  • 2003–04 Detroit Pistons (Ben Wallace, and a HOF coach in Larry Brown. Borderline players in Chauncey Billups and Rip Hamilton may eventually remove this team from the list.)

I’m not going to go any further than that because all the teams thereafter have legit HOF potential players that aren’t in yet like Dirk, Tim, Wade, Kobe, KG, Pau, Kyrie, Parker, Ginobli, etc.

That’s not to say the teams above didn’t have other good players that played key roles, but HOF is a very high standard. They may have had players that played at a HOF level that year but not for their whole career, like Jack Sikma on the Sonics or…pretty much everyone on Detroit.

EDIT: My original answer to this was in 2018, but since then Sikma (2019) has been inducted to the HOF, as has Ben Wallace (2021). So out go the ’79 Supersonics, who now have 2 HOF players in Sikma and Dennis Johnson. And it’s likely that Detroit team will leave the list next.

  

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Diesel Grand Master

Diesel

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1 hour ago, Final_quest said:

Milwaukee could be, but it's not clear yet.  Remember when Middleton took over in that fourth quarter in the ECF?  He honestly could end up going into the Hall.  Milwaukee at least has 3 players in the top 35-40 of the league...and they have arguably the BEST player.  So, even if Middleton doesn't end up as a HOF, they are much closer to the criteria than we are.  But certainly could be an exception.    

My argument is not hindsight at all.  Your argument is players like Gallo win a title, and suddenly end up in the Hall due to your proposed theory that a title gets undeserving guys in the hall.  I think the most talented players like Klay who can go off for 37 in a quarter are lightyears above the talent of guys that we currently have.  Guys like Klay win you a title. 

The research is already done on this.  Here is someone's answer to this question on Quora.  It's solid.  Two hall of famers is the standard, period.  I'm not just making this up.  Don't be mad at me, read the receipt

 

FQ....

First.  Milwaukee proves my point.  It's not clear yet.   If Milwaukee wins another championship.. then either Middleton or the PG or both will have strong considerations to be HOFers.  Then when you look back on it in 2030.. you will say... That Milwaukee team had 3 HOFers on it.   HINDSIGHT ARGUMENT... That's my point. 

In Blue, I highlighted Gallo and Bogi.. because by the same token.. if we win the finals this year... and next year, they already have an international resume' that would qualify them for more considerations for the HOF than say JC or Hunter... But by the time 2030 comes along, we don't know what the rest of some of our young guys career would look like...

This is the same thing that happened to the Warriors.   Before they won the championship.. they were a collection of really good players.   Nobody but possibly Steph was HOF calibre... But Now that they have won several championships...  Klay gets consideration and Draymond will get consideration.  And Iguadala will get Consideration.. and in 2030, you will be saying... That GS team had 4 Hall of Famers on it...   HINDSIGHT.

Winning changes everything because not everybody wins a Championship. 

If you're looking for an outlier argument, you can argue teams that winning a chip didn't produce a HOF. 

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Final_quest Grand Master

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I think your hindsight theory as you’ve described it is weak and severely flawed.  Players who have never been to an all star game will get enshrined AFTER we win a title.  Especially ones on their last few years in the league.  I’m not remotely convinced that’s how you assemble a champion.

If anything, I would make a case for Collins, Hunter, or Okongwu.  Gallo makes no sense.  

You want me to build a champion with guys who aren’t even all stars.  I will pass.

Why are you against bringing in top 25 players?  That’s what we need.

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Diesel Grand Master

Diesel

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8 minutes ago, Final_quest said:

I think your hindsight theory as you’ve described it is weak and severely flawed.  Players who have never been to an all star game will get enshrined AFTER we win a title.  Especially ones on their last few years in the league.  I’m not remotely convinced that’s how you assemble a champion.

If anything, I would make a case for Collins, Hunter, or Okongwu.  Gallo makes no sense.  

You want me to build a champion with guys who aren’t even all stars.  I will pass.

Why are you against bringing in top 25 players?  That’s what we need.

That's your problem FQ.  You share the believe that Lebron James Have.. that you have to have HoFers to win a championship.  This is why I have very little respect for what Lebron does with his longetivity awards.  I have more respect for Giannis who said, I can win with the players that I'm given... I don't need to build a superteam. 

So when you see Giannis win without a built up Superteam, FQ says... It's not clear yet who the other HOFers are."  YOU MAKE MY POINT.  Right now Lebron has 5 future HoFers on his team and he probably won't sniff an NBA title this year.   There's your contingency failing again.    

Secondly, I picked Gallo and Bogi because it's 100% true that Europlayers have an easier road to the HOF for whatever reason.  Arvydas is in the Hall.   Petrovic is in the Hall.  BTW, he never went to the Allstar game. 

Finally, now you're saying that I'm arguing for something that I'm not... Let me ReCenter you before you change the subject.

The original argument was that Last year we were good enough to win the championship.   We were 2 wins away from the NBA finals.

Your argument was we didn't have enough HOF types to win a title.   My argument was we could win a title without having 2 or more HOF types.  You make a big deal about the Hindsight recognition of teams that have HOFers on them.  I tell you that it's mostly hindsight and at the time, most of those teams had good players but the winning of the championship put them into the HOF conversation. 

So you have spent the rest of this thread in denial and I have been bombarding you with the truth.  That's where we are.

You may continue trying to change the subject now because the truth is making you look bad. 

 

 

 

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Final_quest Grand Master

Final_quest

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I'm only telling you the facts.  There has only been a couple teams that have won a title without 2 HOF guys.  I don't think we have a second guy right now.  It's that simple.  We could win a title anyways, but it's extremely unlikely.  

Your hindsight bias is you claim we would have won with a healthy Trae.  That is impossible to prove, but you want to stop trying to improve the team?  That's a bad idea.

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Diesel Grand Master

Diesel

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2 minutes ago, Final_quest said:

I'm only telling you the facts.  There has only been a couple teams that have won a title without 2 HOF guys.  I don't think we have a second guy right now.  It's that simple.  We could win a title anyways, but it's extremely unlikely.  

Your hindsight bias is you claim we would have won with a healthy Trae.  That is impossible to prove, but you want to stop trying to improve the team?  That's a bad idea.

Well, after we win the championship.. in 2035.. you will be able to add us to that list.

 

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